Disspelling the "Weakness" Myth

ModCaptainMårvelous··49 votes·2,775 views

Every time there's a change on the PBE, predominantly in the preseason, there's usually this complaint:

"<name> feels too weak. Don't go through with the rework."

Most recently, it's being levied at Talon. As I am frankly sick of seeing this argument, I'll just address the problem for Riot:

#THEY KNOW

Before you start writing your angry posts and downvotes, champions in a weak state like this are often purposefully weaker. You often see it when it comes to new mechanics, new features and otherwise. The reason why champions are set in these weak states is because nobody, not even Riot, knows the full extent of their potential. Potential you CANNOT see regardless of how many hours you put on the PBE smashing bronze players. In the Talon example, there's never been an assassin with roaming capability like his. Not even Evelynn walking around wards. Talon's wall-hopping is something we've never seen done in League to the extent that it's done.

As an example, let's say Riot listens to PBE feedback and drastically buffs Talon. When he's released and good players actually start learning him, Talon is now a one-shot monster who makes life dreadful for everyone and takes a ban away from you. Valuable data is ground to a halt because of how few people are playing him. Moreover, it skews the info because a strong champion will shine in both a newbie and a pros hands while a weaker champion will tend to only shine in a pro's hands. What's there to gain if the distinction between good and bad isn't clear?

It's also easier to buff something up to a strong state than it is to nerf something into an OK state. Buffs can be easily aimed at any number of abilities so that they are improved in some fashion, from statistic changes to adding a new mechanic. Nerfs are more focused around reducing already existing power (Occasionally something that shouldn't stay but does anyways) or trying to figure out which spell/ability/combo is the culprit of high win rates.

For a final note, please don't go into reworks expecting your champion to be good at everything. Generalist champions have been a problem in league for ages and you can regularly see it in design criticism when it comes to League's designs. Some champions will be better at teamfights. Some champions will be worse. Don't look at a video and go "Talon didn't teamfight anyone Riot isn't addressing his teamfighting at all." I reiterate:

#THEY KNOW

Accept a fault or a weakness your champ may have. Accept that he/she might be weak as people learn to play them outside of the admittedly terrible PBE environment, etc. Just stop holding up PBE games and champion mastery points telling us how these changes "CANNOT" go through. God forbid we have another Garen situation.

(PS: A mage's weakness is often short range, low mobility and requiring more items. It's not true for everyone but don't give me an example like Viktor when you try to argue against what I've said.)

78 Comments

PermabannedGaren27 votes

It's not that Riot knows.

It's that the boards are a bunch of idiots who every time whine about how the next new rework is going to make the champion OP or trash, and come patch day lo and behold it's utter bullshit.

I remember this place the days before the juggernaut update.

EVERYONE said the new Mordekaiser would be hot unplayable garbage.

Then he comes out, and he's the most mind-bogglingly overpowered champion in the entire game.

The same was said about Skarner, who was the second strongest juggernaut on release.

The only one people were right about was Darius, who was too weak on release.

Malicious Metal15 votes

Correction: Nobody said Morde was weak, everybody just hated the changes forcing him bot.

Skarner, now he was regarded as trash tier weak, just like Darius, both only needed people to figure them out to become monsters. Morde's outcry was not one of power but one of direction.

WarlockLaw4 votes

No, people were definitely saying that Morde bot wouldn't work and it'd never see the light of day in competitive. Those people were drowned out be practically everyone else complaining about how they were destroying his previous identity.

It took Darius a hotfix buff, followed by another buff in the next patch before he was broken.

Skarner received a hotfix nerf because of how retarded he was on juggernaut patch. Even then he still got nerfed in the very next patch.

RISE Shlack1232 votes

There were people in both camps on the Morde rework. And too strong vs. too weak didn't matter - the main complaint was that they were completely gutting Morde's thematic as well as his kit.

Ralanr2 votes

I remember someone saying that Skarner's rise was "Wtf, this champion sucks." To "Oh god, why is everything on fire?!"

The Skarner buffs are a great example of why you should let the champion be rather "weak" for a while.

Nuparu1 votes

Skarner needed severe hotfixes, on release he was much better than Mordekaiser.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

Skarner needed severe hotfixes, on release he was much better than Mordekaiser.

That's because people hadn't settled into the ADC Mordekaiser life.

Once people realized how dumb he was and how to play him, he had like a 62% win rate.

Skarner never went above 56% IIRC, but I could be wrong.

Big Lincoln6 votes

didn't Skarner have up to 70% winrate at the height of his power?

Nuparu2 votes

Skarner was approaching a 70% winrate; he had like a 68% right before his hotfixes

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

Skarner was approaching a 70% winrate; he had like a 68% right before his hotfixes

I'll take your word for it. I don't remember it ever being that high, but I might have forgotten.

Baron of Bread1 votes

Skarner did not enter live in a state he had existed in while he was on the PBE. He hit live with numbers higher than what he had had on the PBE because of all the complaints. He was also the strongest juggernaut on release (he was hotfixed shortly thereafter).

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wIwH2LYB,comment-id=00010004,timestamp=2016-11-03T22:17:00.795+0000)

Skarner did not enter live in a state he had existed in while he was on the PBE. He hit live with numbers higher than what he had had on the PBE because of all the complaints. He was also the strongest juggernaut on release (he was hotfixed shortly thereafter).

Which just sort of proves my point.

People freaked out over his PBE state so badly that Riot buffed him to incredibly stupid levels because of the backlash.

MetalGearTeemu2 votes

People freaked out because he WAS garbage on PBE, so riot way overbuffed his numbers past what people had recommended in various posts and released him all sorts of busted.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

I think you got Morde and Skarner flipped man.

Mordekaiser didn't reach a 65% win rate. He didn't get hotfixed during the juggernaut patch either.

Saianna9 votes

I always knew Shaco weakness should be that he deals no damage.

Yeah

Mhm

Right

-.-


Edit: in case you don't know. Shaco mains did the math and this rework is straight gutting. The same thing applies to Akali.

Hinagiku332 votes

Also just watching people playing Akali on the PBE is depressing. She has no real burst and misses kills constantly.

Although watching Brofresco being shocked that he died without getting any kills because of Akali's ult cooldown is kinda funny.

ModCaptainMårvelous6 votes

Numbers can changed quite easily. (Although I'm not a fan of the Akali W changes) If he's weak, he can get buffs. "This champion is weak" =/= "This champion is weak forever and ever goodbye Danko the Dank Jester we knew you were too good for this world."

Knoyle1 votes

Then lets hope they try to hit the mark and they don't plan to pull another Yorick.

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

If you're referring to base yorick, his numbers weren't the problem. His entire kit was. It was brainless, it was annoying to face and post level 6 it was pathetically bad. The kit offered little in the way of cohesion and was more of a gimmick than anything else. If Yorick was strong, he was an unstoppable force that just steamrolled you early-mid and made you surrender at twenty. If he was weak, he was garbage sans gimmicks.

Hence why he got an entire update rather than number tweaks/1-2 new spells.

Knoyle4 votes

yes and look how fast the rework came.

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

Absolutely. Although, with the pace considered, Riot has improved substantially. In the span of about 2 years (September 2014 to current), we've gotten:

  • Yorick
  • Sion
  • Poppy
  • Taric
  • Various smaller-scale reworks (Shen, Fiora, Gangplank, Miss Fortune)
  • Three large scale class reworks (Juggernauts, Mages and ADCs)

Comparative to days of old, Riot has drastically increased the pace of updated content.

Ralanr3 votes

Yeah. Reworks aren't something they put in the "maybe" pile anymore. Now when Riot says they're going to rework someone, they actually deliver on the act of reworking them.

Riots work ethic has improved dramatically.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

Personally I like all of the Yorick Sion Poppy Taric reworks

except for poppy because i hate the poppy fotming in general because jungle poppy is retarded

A Doorknob1 votes

{quoted}

Personally I like all of the Yorick Sion Poppy Taric reworks

except for poppy because i hate the poppy fotming in general because jungle poppy is retarded

I miss old poppy. Imagine old poppy now-a-days. Do you know how strong she would be rignt now? Super strong with the new items. Now she's just boring. And as for Taric, I prefered his old kit. All they would of had to do is give him a better stun and make his ult wider; with the amount of damage champions do right now, that would of been a little over the top. And of course with the amount of Armour pen that exist, his armour reduction would be too far too brutal today.

Unstoppable Monk3 votes

everyone misses cancer if they're the ones maining it

WhatAGeinius1 votes

Yeah really have to give Riot credit, they were so quick on the draw on fixing Yorick. I mean it only took them a mere, what, 5 years?

Ralanr4 votes

To be fair, they weren't working on Yorick for those five years. He was iceboxed.

I don't think Riot really got their shit together with Reworks until Poppy. Yeah Sion was a great rework, but after Poppy they started to rev the rework engines with more efficiency.

Now instead of going years without a rework, we can expect a few each year.

Unstoppable Monk6 votes

Ivern Yorick AurelionSol Bard LeeSin MissFortune Viktor

Considered trash by GD in some way before BOOM PRO OP BIG DICK PICKS in the recent meta. Except for Yorick (Just a matter of time).

Sona x Rubick6 votes

LeeSin trash?

he's one of the only melee that dominates master with 55% win rate, the other having 55% are Kennen Jayce Caitlyn Jhin and a bunch of mages

Unstoppable Monk6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wIwH2LYB,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-11-03T09:01:21.137+0000)

LeeSin trash?

he's one of the only melee that dominates master with 55% win rate, the other having 55% are Kennen Jayce Caitlyn Jhin and a bunch of mages

I'm not making shit up, GD was upvoting posts that said lee was trash before he came hard into the meta.

Knoyle1 votes

It's too bad half those guys are shit in bronze. Seeing Ivern on my team makes me cry.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

{quoted}

It's too bad half those guys are shit in bronze. Seeing Ivern on my team makes me cry.

Pfft, Ivern is the least of the worries because at least if they mirco Daisy and sit in a bush jacking off is 200% more useful than a bad any of those other champs.

TotalJerk2 votes

Yorick's will be so fucking frustrating to deal with in ranked 5s once pro teams show exactly how the abusive impact his ult can have on macro. They might as well let Yorick spawn Tryndameres.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

{quoted}

Yorick's will be so fucking frustrating to deal with in ranked 5s once pro teams show exactly how the abusive impact his ult can have on macro. They might as well let Yorick spawn Tryndameres.

There's some minor subtle problems that have to be ironed out for pro, unfortunately.

Jayce / Kennen / Olaf cancer is too strong right now for top lane. Trundle / Ekko really sucks to play against as Yorick.

Mid might be viable except all the cancer ranged top laners can be played there too, although you can probably force attention into some sort of crazy early mid tower siege by rotating maiden into a side lane while still being able to push mid with a rush zzrot / ghoul / support banner of command.

Support and/or AP Yorick I don't have any conclusions yet, as things are "viable" but still need to be figured out. Although support yorick might be something to pocket.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Ivern had to have his base health increased by 108 in a hotfix. That's a huuuuuuge buff. Ivern was definitely too weak on release.

KoKoboto2 votes

I think he was fine on release, I lost a bunch of games but went on quite a huge winstreak afterwards, my winrate was 50~ before the hotfix came out

SUPERX4PANDA1 votes

Riot said that if Yorick was released on 6.18 (which he was), he would be disabled for worlds. The only reason he hasn't been played once is probably because of that

RavenMagus6 votes

There's always people complaining about every champion rework, especially dedicated champion mains.

It makes sense, of course. A dedicated champion main is dedicated because they really like how their champion is, and a rework inherently means the champion is changing to something different.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

There are the good reworks like Sion and poppy and the shitty ones like Mordekaiser though... I'd be sad if I was an aatrox main and riot removed his Q and R and gave him shitty ms boosts instead...

Big Lincoln1 votes

the reworks aren't good for those dedicated players regardless

especially because they took two champions that filled assassin/carry roles and turned them into tanks

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Their actual theme lent themselves more towards Tanks than assassins. The Rework was meant to fix thematic issues. Hence, voila.

Big Lincoln1 votes

ya and sion is back to being shit

good rework lol

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

he's not though

TotalJerk3 votes

I would personally much rather a rework or new release be underpowered at launch than overpowered, personally.

Papa Andrei3 votes

Can we have this sticked into the gameplay section as a warning for people before the rant about X issue?

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Amen.

The same goes for Fizz, Akali and most of the other overhauled champions on the PBE. Additionally, for Akali and Shaco, these champions are also on the full VGU list, meaning that their changes will not be addressed at solving all their problems, but to make them more enjoyable to play against for now while making them somewhat viable to play as.

Limmie3 votes

"more enjoyable to play against"

Tell me how many times were you playing against an Akali and thought to yourself, "Boy, if only she had a random dash attached to her shroud, I'd have so much fun fighting her!"?

RISE Shlack1232 votes

I understand where you're coming from, but I've seen releases and reworks that were absolutely terrible. Riot has a history of screwing things up, and PBE players have a duty of sorts to give feedback. Sure, some can go way too far or expect their main champion to one-shot a 6-item Malphite, but sometimes there is legitimate feedback of real value in there. And telling people to stop giving feedback, which is essentially what you're doing here, isn't the right way to go.

KoKoboto2 votes

What about all the Akali mains who are quitting?

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

I don't understand how this is any different than any other rework. While I don't know any off the top of my head, I'm certain there are Sion, Poppy and Taric mains who have quit and/or stopped playing that character because they were changed. As a converse effect: There are champion mains (Such as some I've seen on r/TalonMains) who are coming back because their champions are getting reworked and (Hopefully) placed in a better spot.

There's always going to be outcry at change and the time-honored question is if in the long run they're on the right side (Mordekaisr) or on the wrong side (Sion/Poppy/etc.) when the dust settles.

EDIT: Quick edit that I want to add is that this is also Riot's fault. Not the rework itself but the fact that people have grown attached to problematic kits that NEED changing regardless of if the change will be better or worse. For an IRL example: I know fast food is shit. I know it's not good for me. Yet I still eat it anyways. Same deal: Many champs aren't styalistically good, many champs need large scale changes but people still don't want them.

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