Damage creep is real

Irelia Bot··20 votes·1,379 views

Isn't that right support?

Brand Lux Annie Velkoz :What are you talking about? It is totally not real.

28 Comments

Big Lincoln16 votes

Wait a minute...

damage creep...

Da Mage creep....

it all makes sense now.....................

http://rs46.pbsrc.com/albums/f133/Hakudoshi7285/Animated%20gif/Realization_zpsea2394e9.gif~c200

SlaktarTasken1 votes

I wanna give you a medal! [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Häßlich7 votes

Using a damage "support" isn't damage creep. It's just a difference team comp. Most of those champs are objectively weaker than they were in S3/S4.

Irelia Bot8 votes

{quoted}

Using a damage "support" isn't damage creep. It's just a difference team comp. Most of those champs are objectively weaker than they were in S3/S4.

All that increases damage is part of damage creep.

Häßlich4 votes

So basically this is just a troll thread where buzzwords are thrown around, irrespective of their actual meaning. Good luck with that.

PB4UAME3 votes

No, you have a very rigid, far to narrow connotation of a term which can be applied in macro and micro scales and to various different attributes within a game, or to the game itself, and are then substituting this reductive connotation for the denotation of the phrase, then are calling others out for using a more expanded use of the term.

The meta of season 7 involves supports with much higher damage capabilities than the meta for season 5. Whether or not the damage of those champions in their kit alone have been damage creeped, or not doesn't actually have any barring on that fact as we are not looking at those champions individually in a vacuum from from all other constraints and lurking variables.

Häßlich2 votes

Trying to justify your poor understanding of the word doesn't change that you have a poor understanding of it, and trying to shift that blame to me won't either.

Just because some damage-oriented champions are being picked in the support slot doesn't mean that supports themselves are actually under the influence of "damage creep." When someone takes Garen into the support role, he's not a real support, so claiming that supports are suffering from damage creep when you see that simply doesn't make sense.

As I said, it's just a troll thread seeking to abuse buzz words. Nothing to see here, folks.

PB4UAME2 votes

When RIOT actively balances them around their role as supports in the bot lane, and they dominate competitive and solo queue in win and pick rates, they are indeed part of support for that meta. People in this thread are comparing damage creep across metas, not the same champions over time.

I have already pointed this out, but you continue to try to insult others and spew negativity whilst seemingly unaware of this fact.

Häßlich2 votes

Riot's changes to Malz were not intended to bring him into the support role; that was the players' doing. Mischaracterize the events if you like, but it only shows your own ignorance.

Irelia Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Riot's changes to Malz were not intended to bring him into the support role; that was the players' doing. Mischaracterize the events if you like, but it only shows your own ignorance.

2 damage dealers bot lane instead of 1. It matters not the intent.

Häßlich1 votes

Intent matters a lot, because claiming it was designed that way INTENTionally is false. It happened, they thought it was interesting, so they let it go to see where it goes (probably as an experiment to see how such gameplay effects the game). Wait until next season to make judgments about it, if they don't change it, or if they bring more champions into that role that typically don't belong there.

ForgiveColour3 votes

Gold regen should be gutted for support

D3m37r11 votes

Lux support is a myth, only Lux "support" exists

notice me Sin pi1 votes

Lux item 3504 item 3107 item 3190 item 2045 item 3092 item 3117 is not viable only because in solo queue teammates will occassionally mistake the lux support for Lux item 2301 item 3285 item 3165 item 3089 item 3135 item 3020 for a split second, which is enough to make them make bad engages when there isnt enough damage. If teammates are able to distinguish the difference between the two, then Lux item 3504 item 3107 item 3190 item 2045 item 3092 item 3117 would actually be somewhat usable

Crett1 votes

damage creep IS real, but supports have nothing to do with it. riot has taken it down a notch with mastery nerfs, but i feel like itemization is the big issue

Häßlich6 votes

Lethality is too abundant and too accessible. This is why we see 4 AD team comps. This is why tanks get the shaft. This is why Ninja Tabi is BiS right now.

If they took 5 Lethality off of every item, that alone would do a lot for the health of the game.

The Last Ballad8 votes

And the 4 ad comps require a mage support, if your support knows anything about team comps...

Häßlich2 votes

That depends, honestly. If your 4 ADs have no CC, you're better off bringing a lock-down tank. Nautilus Leona TahmKench or maybe even Thresh (who is somewhere between a tank and utility support).

warpenguin5551 votes

No, they need MF support and then wonder why they can't kill the Nautilus

notice me Sin pi1 votes

MissFortune item 3071 mf support will definitely help with shredding armor???

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Eh, lethality is pretty much directly worse than Arpen though. It doesn't come with that much more doses neither. And tanks aren't relaly weak, their lategame (in terms of stats power and not teamfight presence) is just not as good anymore unless you're poppy or maokai.

Häßlich1 votes

Lethality has a ratio that scales, true, but you can get a lot more than you could before. It used to be that you could get ~60 or so (full built) and total glass cannon. With Lethality, you get 60% of your Lethality as actual armor pen if your target is level 1, but at 18 (so we can compare full builds) you can have 85, but that's with an extra Serrated Dirk, so realistically 75, and this isn't counting Last Whisper or Black Cleaver. Then you have the extra damage from Duskblade that scales with Lethality for another 75 + 2*Lethality -> 225 true damage.

Not only is the pen much more available now, and in great quantities, but the items it comes on are better. This is especially bad when you consider the order that armor pen works:

  1. Flat Armor Reduction (Nasus' E)
  2. %Reduction (Black Cleaver)
  3. %Penetration (Last Whisper vs Bonus Armor)
  4. Flat Penetration (Lethality)

Suppose Sion build Ninja Tabi and Dead Man's Plate and was level 18 with no runes/masteries to add armor. He would have 154 total armor: 74 base + 80.

An enemy with full Lethality + Last Whisper (like a Varus using his Q) reduces it like this.

80 (bonus armor) * (1-.45) = 44 74 + 44 = 118 118 - 75 = 43

Damage reduction is 44/(44+100) = 30.5% Without the armor pen it would be 60.6% Against a 300 AD attack (ignoring Tabi's passive for the moment), this is 209 damage rather than 118. He takes 77% more damage.

Ashe has 79 armor at 18 with no defensive items, runes, or masteries granting armor. 79-75 = 4 armor -> 3.8% damage reduction as opposed to 44.1%. Against a 300 AD attack, she takes 289 damage as opposed to 168. She takes 72% more damage.

That damage multiplier looks awfully close to the amount of Lethality we have, doesn't it? That's not a coincidence. The armor formula is DR = A / (A+100), which means you gain 1% ehp for each point of armor you have. Inversely, Lethality reduces your ehp by 1% for each point they have. It is a damage multiplier, and we now have access to a lot more than we did before--even after the LW change--especially since LW is only really good against tanks now, so assassins can usually skip it if they are only concerned with sniping carries. Instead, they can do something more like:

item 1001 (whichever upgrade they feel is best for that match, likely Tabi) item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 Two of: item 3071 item 3031 item 3078 item 3139 item 3074 item 3812 item 3742 item 3156 item 3065 item 3053 Or LW if they really feel like it and the enemies are pretty tanky.

With just the Lethality items, they also gain 180 AD, and will probably build another 120-160 or so with their last 2 if they don't absolutely need purely defensive options. This just reinforces the point I made earlier, which is worth mentioning again:

Not only is the pen much more available now... but the items it comes on are better.

The only way that Lethality is worse than old armor pen is that it has slightly less raw value at lower levels, but this mostly goes away after you have finished your first Lethality item and most players are level 9+ (since old armor pen was about 80% of what is available now, and level 9 is when players receive 80% value from Lethality--break even point).

GULAG 4 U1 votes

The math isn't wrong, I know that. I know with item 3147 item 3142 item 3814 item 3071 item 3036 You can practically deal true damage to a 200 or so armor tank. The problem comes in as 'who builds these items'. Unless your champion has free as (Camille, Yi, Aatrox) that is not enough DPS to really kill a tank. And Camille, Yi nor aatrox build these items except the cleaver and Yi builds LW in certain builds. Without the raw DPS, even with multiple tank busting items, it is quite meaningless.

Then again riot doesn't like tanks being tanky statsicks, so they changed tanks into CC threats instead of being 'truly unkillable'. Good decision? I don't know.

Häßlich1 votes

Burst assassins that aren't overly auto attack reliant.

Khazix Rengar Talon Zed Jhin and maybe an odd LeeSin here and there. (Jhin is only in here because it's actually a decent build on him--not because he's an "assassin.")

The thing is, it doesn't have to 100->0 the tank in one go. It just has to chunk him hard enough to effectively remove him from the fight, and it's extremely unlikely that he is going to kill you unless you were already low when you went in on him. It's not as if you initiate a fight focusing the tank as an assassin either. We're talking scrappy skirmishes/chases left over from a teamfight. Often times it's enough for the assassin to just backline the enemy ADC or mage and gtfo before he dies, turning the fight into a 5v4 (as soon as your cooldowns are up again).

That said, most of these guys probably wouldn't need Black Cleaver AND Last Whisper if they were going full assassin (and not bruiser). It's more likely the Black Cleaver would be replaced with BoRK, Bloodthirster, Death's Dance, GA, etc.

Anhartamin1 votes

[deleted]

Häßlich1 votes

Type in "S7 Full Lethality" in Youtube and tell me what you see. Sure, some of those may be troll picks, but honestly it just points to the problem when you even see Soraka players doing it and getting away with it (even if that is far outside the norm).

inb4 "lowelolol"

HateDaddy1 votes

You mean champions with high base damages are doing damage still, even if in another role? Shocker. Literally all 4 of these champions have been commonly accepted supports that can 1-shot your ADC at any point in the game well before the term "damage creep" was coined.

It's not hard to acquire near solo-laner amounts of gold either when the game is as snowbally as it is and gold gen is so high.

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