So much for bot lane diversity

chipndip1·Aug 17, 2018·10 votes·2,470 views

Like, how long has the entire game's meta been held in a strangle hold based on whatever marksman's strong in bot lane? We just had a short stint of not requiring a marksman every dang game, and we're steadily swinging further and further back to never seeing anything but 3-4 top tier marksmen in bot lane. Just like season 7. Just like season 6. Just like season 5. Just like every damn season.

I was legitimately excited when new stuff showed up bot side. We had Yasuo bot. We had Dinger, Vlad, Swain, and a bit of Ziggs bot. We STILL HAD Kai'Sa, Ezreal, Lucian, and Jhin in bot. Quinn showed up bot. In solo queue, Draven and Miss Fortune were in bot. There was a good deal of REAL DIVERSITY in bot lane. NOW? Scratch all that shit. Show's ran by Jhin, Jinx, and Kai'Sa these days, with a few pinches of Draven. Damn, 3-4 meta marksmen...just like every fucking season. Why does the whole game have to fold to marksmen players and their 24/7 whining?

33 Comments

JackMcSnipeyzAug 18, 20186 votes

The reason you had no marksmen in botlane is because marksmen were none existant. Great diversity, instead of having: marksmen - support - mage - bruiser jungle - bruiser top We had: Mage support - mage carry - mage/assassin mid - bruiser jungle - bruiser top.

Great diversity, you just gutted marksmen and replaced them with mages who were already fine in mid. This is no different than after the marksken rework where you had jungle and mid ADC, did you cream over "diversity" then?

And before you say "BuT kAI'sA" - yes, AP kai'sa and off builds like lucian and EZ were still good because they are a unique subset of marksmen who didnt rely on crit which is what was nerfed. They were extreme outliners.

Sorry, heim fiddle perma pushing lane or alistar swain popping you while being tanky and ccing you - was not any less cancer than jhin being The Fast.

That said! Marksmen are balanced now after tinkering and require no more buffs, nerf outliners like hail of blades jhin (not because it's OP but because it's toxic) and maybe polish F tier marksmen but that's it.

You can still go vlad/swain botlane and do well, no one is stopping you marksmen are no where as strong as they used to be, marksemen in the botlane meta will always be less diverse because the role is more limitied and counters each other around more heavily.

chipndip1Aug 18, 20181 votes

What stopped you from going Jhin/Ezrea/Kai'Sa/Draven/Quinn/MF/Lucian bot lane before now? The only marksmen that needed help in bot lane (in solo queue) were the crit ones. Now ALL the stuff that made its way bot is now gone, so the whole mid season was a complete flop. The only thing we gained this mid season was making it so crit marksmen didn't power spike the ceiling off the building at 2-3 items.

JackMcSnipeyzAug 18, 20182 votes

Jhin had only risen after the stromrazor buffs, he was also one of the losers of the early weeks of marksmen rework. Kai'sa, Ez, Lucian i mentioned in my post, they had unique builds and were not effected by the changes so they were indirectly buffed.

Same for lethality adc like MF.

However these were the only VIABLE marksmen on their ONLY viable lane, unlike other roles that can flex. The majority of marksmen were not weak, they were borderline unplayable - twitch, cait, ashe, tristana, xayah, jinx, sivir, vayne, jhin (early days), varus, kog'maw, corki, kalista, vayne - all suddennly gutted in one sweep patch.

What's stoppoing you from playing Draven, MF, vlad, swain, yasuo, heimer, fiddle, ziggs now? Meta? Oh you mean the same meta that few patches ago defined marksmen as unviable? See? I can spin that arguement around too.

chipndip1Aug 18, 20181 votes

Jhin didn't do well because Stormrazor was bugged. He picked up after the bug was fixed.

And the difference between my example and yours is that marksmen were still viable bot lane picks at the time, but now the script's been flipped and everything that isn't a marksman's getting the Morde bot treatment now.

So this is a question about honesty at this point: Are we going to admit that marksmen players wan their foot in every team comp or are we going to pretend that they're not doing that when they clearly are?

JackMcSnipeyzAug 18, 20181 votes

Swain was overdue a nerf long before - the fact is his state in a duo lane was OP, he was not designed for duo lane with a support for EZ pulls and burst. Vlad was always borderline cancer in toplane and mid. Heimer was always 100% pure cancer uninteractive auto lane pushing.

The state of the matter is, marksmen are balanced around DUO lane, that's why they cant solo lane unless OP (and they get nerfed). Mages CAN solo lane, giving them a supports pushes them over the line from skill oriented class like swain, to a dumb uninteractive lane when coupled with the right support (alistar/fid).

For example, vlad has sustain, AoE, single target nukes (passive) and safety, his weakness is he cant reliably engage without burning his escape tool. Pair him with a support, what's his weakness? Alistar will reliably engage for him, you cant counter engage him because he's abilities are balanced around surviving 1v1, he has healing, so in duo lane he loses all weaknesses.

chipndip1Aug 18, 20181 votes

Ok, so you think mages in bot lane are toxic?

How about melee bot laners? Oh no, then it's "Irelia/Yasuo move too fast, stomp too hard, and close out before I can scale."

Who does that leave?

No one.

Stop lying to yourself.

JackMcSnipeyzAug 19, 20181 votes

Melee botlane were not touched or nerfed, they are fine, irelia was nerfed because she was OP in toplane. Yasuo was about to get BUFFED if anything. So stop lying to yourself, riot didnt nerf any melee just because they were picked botlane.

Stop straw manning the conversation, i didnt say a thing about melee botlane, unlike mages, their weakness is clear (range).

And yes, a mage designed in mind to solo lane is toxic when paired with a support that makes him braindead easy and not only covers his weaknesses, but also amplifies his strengths. Like i said, vlad can solo lane, ashe (for example) cant, ashe and most 90% of marksmen are built with duo lane as part of their power budget, vlad was built with solo lane power in mind.

chipndip1Aug 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Melee botlane were not touched or nerfed, they are fine, irelia was nerfed because she was OP in toplane. Yasuo was about to get BUFFED if anything. ** So stop lying to yourself, riot didnt nerf any melee just because they were picked botlane. **

That's not the point I'm making (although Irelia is officially out of bot lane so only Yasuo remains, and that's very rare as is, so you're wrong). The point I AM making is this:

Bot lane's hard to integrate things into. A melee champion that can flex into bot lane will be extremely hard to keep healthy in other lanes (pretty much only Yasuo can without being toxic elsewhere). Mages, on the other hand, are ranged like marksmen are. They don't fall prey to marksmen like tanks and easily kited targets do, either. If ANYTHING is going to serve as a starting point t diversifying the lane, and thus the game, so bot lane and marksmen aren't shackled together for the rest of the game's life, it would be to start somewhere that's close, but different, to what's already there.

With YOUR philosophy, what you want is for bot lane to have its own little meta within League's overall meta. ONLY things that are designed to duo lane should go bot lane, and anything else is "toxic". No, the case should be made that marksmen should be pushed to playing better in solo lanes, or at least the early game ones should. If you say "only champs that are designed to duo lane can go bot", we end up where we are now, anyway, where bot lane's role in the whole game is the same game in and game out and defines literally everything around it.

JackMcSnipeyzAug 19, 20181 votes

When marksmen go to solo lanes, everyone cries they are OP, and it's true, if a duo lane champion is dominating a solo lane he is probably overbearing.

Yes, botlane has it's own meta like toplane and mid and jungle. You're telling me a champion isnt designed in mind for his lane? Every champ is designed around where he's supposed to go, and just like mid has it's own meta with mages and assassins, botlane has it's meta with marksmen and supports.

The biggest difference is top and mid are similar because they are 1v1, botlane will always be 2v2 and it's roster should be balanced in mind around it, part of power budget.

The reason you dont see much more mages anymore botlane is because (shock) botlane is the only place where marksmen players can play, swain isnt laneless right now because he isnt top pick botlane, he just goes mid/top. But when someone like vayne gets pushed out of lane by mages, she cant go mid.

Austin CovelloAug 18, 20185 votes

Because everyone stopped playing League and started playing Fortnight. Newsflash: You can talk about how "whiny" we are, how supports are all beautiful perfect people for putting up with our shit (actually, it's the other way around, I've never heard any ADC start up a thread bitching about supports, and I'm the only one who ever even so much as pushes back against supports bitching about the ADCs that I've seen on these boards), but at the end of the day, League needs us more than we need League. Take away and/or fuck up my favorite class, and I'll go play something else. You jerks were SO smug at patch 8.11. You were all, "nyah-heh-heh, now you'll know how it feels to have YOUR class gutted!" Guess what? It felt okay. Because we left league, and, in my case, I played some of the original Fallout, some X-COM, some XCOM, some Banner Saga, and I tried Mass Effect. Not to mention a plethora of other old retro games I'd been ignoring. And you know what? It was so refreshing to play a single-player game and not have an entire team flame you because some random fucktard decided to grieve/troll you and get you killed with his/her fight-baiting bullshit because you were that "damn, dirty, cocky ADC" who hadn't even uttered a word in chat to merit that kind of hatred.

And remember this, NEVER forget this: The only thing that keeps me coming back is this girl right here: Ashe . And I don't have to play your game at all. We can just spend an hour messing around in the practice tool or a private custom game. She doesn't mind, and I certainly don't mind. I log on to spend quality time with her, not any of you.

So Riot, if you don't want my money or the ADC mains' money, try that little meta experiment again. I've got streams to watch, books to read, and other games to play. I. DON'T. NEED. YOU.

chipndip1Aug 18, 20182 votes

This right here: Prime example of an entitled player that wants the whole game to bend to his one sub-class in the game.

Austin CovelloAug 18, 20184 votes

No, this game can do whatever it wants to. Just like I can choose to play or NOT choose to play it. There's nothing stopping you from leaving the game, either, if you don't like what's going on. Riot had these changes in place for 10 weeks. (Ironically, Ashe thrived in that meta, so that would have been the time to play League for me.) What happened? People left the game. People didn't watch LCS. People got pissed when their favorite ADCs got benched. (The fangirls were particularly pissed about Sneaky, as I'm sure you're aware.) RIOT LOST MONEY. THE FRANCHISES LOST MONEY. At the end of the day, this is a business, and they want to make a profit. The ADC/support bot lane meta is how they do it. So maybe, JUST MAYBE, YOU are the entitled player who wants this game to bend to his every whim (and a butthurt vocal minority at that), no matter how much it may cost Riot's bottom line.

KaìjuAug 18, 20185 votes

Because Heim Fidd is so fun right?

chipndip1Aug 18, 20182 votes

Heim: Yes

Fiddle: No, but he was never the carry. He was the support, and his shitty kit is the issue more than it's "mages in bot lane" being an issue.

rtbf221651412Aug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Heim: Yes

Fiddle: No, but he was never the carry. He was the support, and his shitty kit is the issue more than it's "mages in bot lane" being an issue.

Inb4 they realize item 3310 hurts him a lot. And his bot lane carry at the same time.

And he has a 48.1% winrate.

RexxieeAug 18, 20184 votes

Yes, variety.

Aka the heimer swain vlad brand fiddlesticks lanes every game, most of those having near 0 counterplay in a duo lane.

Or you gonna tell me you're gonna miss fiddle point and clicking his kit on you while swain also points and click his from a higher range than caillyn?

The only ppl that liked mages in bot were non bot lane players, or masochists.

chipndip1Aug 18, 20182 votes

Fiddle isn't even a bot lane carry for this point to include him...

And I actually did enjoy seeing the others you mentioned in bot lane as carries. And it wasn't every game, as I mentioned, because we saw marksmen as well. Just admit it: If bot lane isn't a marksmen only lane, or if there's ever a time where marksmen aren't 100% required for every team comp in the game, marksman players will whine and continue to whine until it is. It's the most entitled group of players in the community.

rtbf221651412Aug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yes, variety.

Aka the heimer swain vlad brand fiddlesticks lanes every game, most of those having near 0 counterplay in a duo lane.

Or you gonna tell me you're gonna miss fiddle point and clicking his kit on you while swain also points and click his from a higher range than caillyn?

The only ppl that liked mages in bot were non bot lane players, or masochists.

Fiddlesticks is a support. He has CC for a reason.

I bet you play mobility champs or Yi too. Otherwise you wouldn't be whining.

48.1% winrate is hardly overpowered.

Daddy AntsAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Fiddlesticks is a support. He has CC for a reason.

I bet you play mobility champs or Yi too. Otherwise you wouldn't be whining.

48.1% winrate is hardly overpowered.

48.1% but still extremely uninteractive, unfun and oppressive to play against.

Valor BotAug 18, 20183 votes

I agree with this. The problem here though is that a lot of players were heavily attached to and/or invested in the ADC-support bot lane meta. Making this strategy significantly less viable after so many years of it being the standard is obviously gonna cause pain for thousands if not millions of players worldwide. I'm not sure there's an easy answer to this or much less a satisfying one; it may very well be that the two metas simply cannot coexist.

AnAggravatedPimpAug 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wG4FdlZb,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-18T01:06:35.327+0000)

I agree with this. The problem here though is that a lot of players were heavily attached to and/or invested in the ADC-support bot lane meta. Making this strategy significantly less viable after so many years of it being the standard is obviously gonna cause pain for thousands if not millions of players worldwide. I'm not sure there's an easy answer to this or much less a satisfying one; it may very well be that the two metas simply cannot coexist.

The easy answer was letting the change sit for a bit so that people could get over their knee-jerk reactions and realize that ADCs were still meta relevant just not required picks in bot lane.

chipndip1Aug 18, 20181 votes

The answer is simple: Marksman players win. We HAVE to deal with their asses every game. No class is as important as marksmen to this game. If not, they FORCE it to be that way.

theChibiTinaAug 18, 20182 votes

Marksmen became meta bot lane because they can't reliably lane by themselves. They have no utility and little early game damage. The exceptions being Quinn for obvious reasons and then Graves and Kindred who were effectively turned into junglers (except Kindred started as jungler not turned into jungler). Maybe Lucian mid if played right too and at one point Vayne top lane for a little bit before they nerfed her out of it. The only reason you occasionally see off meta marksmen junglers is because they aren't necessarily laning against someone. You just have to be able to sustain (which they could at the time they were played jungle) and track the enemy.

chipndip1Aug 18, 20181 votes

No one cares.

The point is that no single sub-class in the game is blatantly required in EVERY FUCKING MATCH except marksmen, and we're complacent with this golden boy bullshit.

Like, how do you think mid laners would feel if mages had to be in EVERY mid lane match-up EVERY game? We wouldn't put up with it for even a day. But marksmen have to be in EVERY bot lane match-up EVERY game or it's a massive uproar. Gimme a break. Enough with the excuses.

theChibiTinaAug 18, 20181 votes

Really? You're going to backlash me for just explaining why it became the meta. I never even said whether I supported the meta reverting back to marksmen bot lane. Honestly, I think it's a double eged sword. On the one hand diversity and being able to play other champs is nice. On the other, if marksmen can't lane (which they couldn't against comps like heimer/fiddle and swain/Alistar) then they become completely inviable. I can understand marksmen players being upset about not being able to play their favorite champs because almost the whole class became absolutely useless other than only a very small minority of the class. Quinn being one as she had highest win rate top and bot for a bit. Graves and Kindred are junglers. MF and Draven were kinda teetering because they don't build crit and crit marksmen got hit harder than anyone. It's mostly a problem with having to try to balance it where marksmen to lane effectively to get to late game where they are viable vs getting bullied out of relevance. I would love to be able to see diversity, but not at the cost of making almost an entire class unplayable.

chipndip1Aug 18, 20181 votes

Let me correct myself:

No one cares about WHY because we already know WHY. The point is that we've tried two times over to push marksmen in the right direction, and it flopped both times. When marksmen leave bot lane, everyone cries. When mages move INTO bot lane, marksman mains cry. News flash: We have to start somewhere if we want to get to a point where we can balance the marksman class beyond marksman vs. marksman bot lane match-ups. If no one's willing to put their big boy pants on, we'll keep ending up back where we started with this class of champions, where 13% of the roster has damn near 100% match presence.

And no one's buying this "No marksmen were viable" nonsense, because that was blatantly untrue. SOME marksmen weren't viable. Some were. Instead of using that as a starting point and exploring a healthy solution, everyone screamed at Riot to backtrack. That's my problem. You guys are disingenuous. EVERY CLASS has its ups and downs in the game...EXCEPT marksmen. Truly the golden boys of this game.

theChibiTinaAug 19, 20182 votes

Most marksmen were not viable. Only a few were. You can still play non marksmen in bot lane though. Yasuo, Vlad, Heimer, Swain. They can still be played effectively. They just aren't as oppressive as they were a month ago. The reason you don't see them often is because the people who are playing the bot lane role prefer to play marksmen. That's why even though most marksmen weren't viable, they were still seeing a lot of play. The number was slowly trickling down though as people were slowly giving up on playing they're favorite champions. Things are relatively in a good spot right now where it could be more diverse if people wanted it to be, but it's the player base's fault that it's not. All because people are choosing not to play more variety. I watched a game of Leona/Nami bot lane and it worked. They won. It was a streamer's game. Not one of my own, but it's a great example.

rtbf221651412Aug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted} But marksmen have to be in EVERY lane match-up it's a massive uproar.

Fixed. :>

Yes even support and mid.

Edit: Fixed my fix. lul

The EcdysiastAug 19, 20182 votes

It's not like you can't play other roles in other positions. Marksman is simply the class that works best when paired with a support. If you put classes designed to be on their own with a support, they're going to start getting nerfs.

"Diversity" the way you see it, could only possibly lead to gutting champions in their intended roles. Because they're not supposed to be able to wprk with a partner.

That said, no one who actually plays bot was happy about this. It was all marksman players, who just got completely shafted out of their role entirely. Even in pros, all that happened was people who normally aren't bot lane were put there because they could pick someone else.

BlåbæretAug 18, 20181 votes

Marksmen need to be gutted for an entire season until people become used to not seeing one in every single game.

AR URFAug 18, 20181 votes

I get the feeling that players are picking the easiest champions to lane with because they want the win. Winning feels like meh, but losing kind of ruins the day for you. Or at least the hour. Now it's like players just want to play Twitch Jhin MissFortune and a few others because they want to win with ease.