@Meddler, Why Not Just Removing SIghtstone?

Hyrum Graff··12 votes·2,591 views

{quoted}

We're planning to test removing the gold cost for the upgraded versions in the preseason, [to] find out if that has a good effect on the game.

While we're testing that, can we also test flat-out removing sightstone from the game?

item 3361 Upgraded yellow trinket already provides nearly as much (and sometimes more) vision as a sightstone; the only reason why I still rush item 2049 sightstone on supports at all is that vision denial from the item 3341 sweeper is really powerful.

Here's all the impacts on the game I can think of:

  • Supports in general are happier.

    • Because now we have 1050 more gold to spend on actual items.
  • AP supports who aren't Annie might have a chance at competitive viability.

    • They're not forced to spend 800 gold on stats they really don't care about.
  • Lee sin is fixed.

    • Can I have my upvotes now?
    • Plus, Lee mains can't even bitch about it, because he's still able to ward hop. He just needs to think a little harder before he does it. Or, y'know, Buy wards.
  • There's a slim chance that finally, every team member will be expected to contribute to vision.

  • People will have to make meaningful choices about securing vision control vs vision denial.

    • Do I buy wards and get a sweeper, or use a greater vision totem and spend that gold on combat stats?
  • It's now easier to tune how much vision should be on the map.

    • Right now there's a huge disparity between how much vision a team with a sightstone jg and a support who remembers to ward has, and a team whose support forgets to ward and whose jungler doesn't build a sightstone. Giving only trinkets and purchased wards for vision makes the vision scene less complicated, which makes it easier to balance.
  • On the downside, supports might be forced into running sweepers and spending a lot of their income on wards.

    • I think this can be mitigated as long as supports can get good value out of spending gold on combat stats.
    • If support itemization sucks then yeah, supports aren't going to care about getting items. But if they have good itemization, then if they have money to spend, they'll use it to buy items, not wards.

Thoughts?

44 Comments

Dr Poro8 votes

If you look at how support was playing before sightstone (massively buying wards), I guess the new playstyle would be: item 3364 +buying 3+ wards everytime you go B. They'd end up spending more gold on wards than the price of sightstone.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-07-24T13:05:22.573+0000)

If you look at how support was playing before sightstone (massively buying wards), I guess the new playstyle would be: item 3364 +buying 3+ wards everytime you go B. They'd end up spending more gold on wards than the price of sightstone.

Maybe true, and I acknowledge in the OP that this is a potential danger. Vision denial is powerful, and this change would mean you couldn't deny vision and secure vision both for free.

I want to think there's a better solution to deal with this problem than sightstone, though. Ex: buffing upgraded yellow trinket so it refills each B.

Origami Kaiju6 votes

I do like the idea of having more gold to spend on items, but I do not like the idea of having to rely on my team even further for vision.

Perhaps removing SS would give teammates an ultimatum - help ward or suffer the consequences. Right now, with sightstone I can pick up some of the slack from my teammates vision negligence. I don't like the idea of losing that.

Heck, when playing against a team with two sightstones and upgraded trinkets, I wish I could place unlimited wards, I would take that responsibility happily if it meant that I could ensure vision where we needed it most.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Healer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-24T12:23:52.118+0000)

I do like the idea of having more gold to spend on items, but I do not like the idea of having to rely on my team even further for vision.

Perhaps removing SS would give teammates an ultimatum - help ward or suffer the consequences. Right now, with sightstone I can pick up some of the slack from my teammates vision negligence. I don't like the idea of losing that.

Heck, when playing against a team with two sightstones and upgraded trinkets, I wish I could place unlimited wards, I would take that responsibility happily if it meant that I could ensure vision where we needed it most.

I don't think Riot feels the same way, though. They already gave that ultimatum when they added the ward limit. This is just carrying that idea further. "If there's not supposed to be a dedicated ward-bot, don't make a mandatory rush ward-bot item."

Earl Eulrich6 votes

the upgraded trinket is nice, but it really doesn´t provide anything of worth if you really want to set up good vision and move it alongside your goals/team...if you´d remove sightstone supports would just go back to spend a lot more than 1000gold on wards if they are good at their jobs.

Ser Garland1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-07-24T12:54:11.047+0000)

the upgraded trinket is nice, but it really doesn´t provide anything of worth if you really want to set up good vision and move it alongside your goals/team...if you´d remove sightstone supports would just go back to spend a lot more than 1000gold on wards if they are good at their jobs.

thats bs.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-07-24T12:57:55.760+0000)

thats bs.

I don't agree with him either but his response was a lot more interesting to read and respond to than this...

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-07-24T12:54:11.047+0000)

the upgraded trinket is nice, but it really doesn´t provide anything of worth if you really want to set up good vision and move it alongside your goals/team...

I guess my experience differs. Being able to generate wards without going b helps me move vision more, in extended seiges with rotations. I also frequently place around the same number of wards as the support, without buying anything but the upgraded yellow and a couple pinks.

if you´d remove sightstone supports would just go back to spend a lot more than 1000gold on wards if they are good at their jobs.

I mentioned this in the OP. This is certainly the biggest danger associated with removing sightstone. However, I think that if:

  1. There's enough vision without having a support wardbot, and
  2. Supports have items worth buying

Then being good at your job as support will mean more than just ward spamming, because items like Zeke's and Mikael's are super useful.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

Then being good at your job as support will mean more than just ward spamming, because items like Zeke's and Mikael's are super useful.

it already does, and setting up good vision requires a lot more than just spamming wards... also, there´s a very good reason almost all pro-teams on the planet play with two sightstones, as just one already doesnßt cut it for proper vision-control and the upgraded trinket is not providing enough wards. It´s a very nice tool to help out a tad in SoloQ, but nothing more.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2015-07-24T13:13:25.905+0000)

the upgraded trinket is not providing enough wards.

What if we buffed upgraded trinkets so they could provide closer to enough vision?

Earl Eulrich2 votes

not sure if it´s a good thing to seemingly force certain roles into buying specific trinkets, also you´d need to allow them to be upgraded pre lvl 9. I think sightstone is in a decent spot currently actually.

But if you want another way of doing things: how about adding a specifically slot for wards in the inventory (so finally 6item carries may help out with lategame vision) and instad of sightstone add a unique passive on any supportive item (those 3 designated ones, but only when fully upgraded - otherwise any laner would get them asap) that creates 2 wards/min + maybe add a 1ward/min passive to upgraded machete (and maaybe have wards in the inventory cap at 5, otherwise things could get ridiculous at times).

Hyrum Graff2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-24T14:59:24.417+0000)

not sure if it´s a good thing to seemingly force certain roles into buying specific trinkets

I'm not sure this would happen, at least any more than it currently does (warding start, switch to sweeper and scrying once you get a ss). I think that if you needed warding to maintain 'enough' vision, the choice between vision and vision denial actually becomes a choice, where right now supports do both. Don't get me wrong, I like doing both when I support, which is often, but I don't like how sightstone limits the range of supports that I can feel good about playing.

also you´d need to allow them to be upgraded pre lvl 9.

Definitely. I'd guess probably it'd be moved to 6, so if you stay long enough you can get it your first back. Depending on how you time it, it could add interesting dynamics to kill vs poke lanes (I'm a kill lane, I want to buy at 5 so I can hit 6 and all in, but I want to hit 6 so I can upgrade my trinket. Decisions! )

think sightstone is in a decent spot currently actually.

The only supports I see nowadays are either tanky, have insane utility (janna & morg), or are annie. IMO, soraka, nami, sona, karma, and a variety of non-traditional supports would benefit greatly from not having to invest in track stats.

But if you want another way of doing things: how about adding a specifically slot for wards in the inventory (so finally 6item carries may help out with lategame vision)

I like this idea. But, most games don't get that far so this isn't really the issue at hand.

and instad of sightstone add a unique passive on any supportive item (those 3 designated ones, but only when fully upgraded - otherwise any laner would get them asap) that creates 2 wards/min + maybe add a 1ward/min passive to upgraded machete (and maaybe have wards in the inventory cap at 5, otherwise things could get ridiculous at times).

That's an interesting idea. It would certainly provide an incentive for supports to upgrade to the final gold item. It's similar to what I proposed in all those 'let us upgrade sightstone so it gives other stats' threads: making t3 gold items build from sightstone.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

I would rather see sightstone buffs where the ward charges regenerate over time.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

I would rather see sightstone buffs where the ward charges regenerate over time.

I'm not sure what problem this addresses. If I want to play Karma support, I'd still be forced into spending a bunch of gold on tank stats that I don't care about.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

well, an easy alternative for that problem would be to add a more aggressive ap and ad version of sightstone.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-07-24T17:05:07.709+0000)

well, an easy alternative for that problem would be to add a more aggressive ap and ad version of sightstone.

Most (every) solution is going to create a new problem. Ad/ap sightstone versions might be abused by other roles, creating an abundance of vision and making games much more snowbally.

My idea has problems too, I just wanted to try to explore them and see if there's a way to fix them, or if not, still make them a net positive change.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

as the item´s combat stats are neither gold nor slot-efficient at any time and no team truly needs 3sightstones to set up vision it would still only be some junglers that would be happy about more options. So you could argue it´s an unneccesary buff to jungle-nid, but that´s about it i think. I think apart from switching wards to jungle/support items the only way to get along without a sightstone would be to radically change green-wards: make them visible but invulnerable and limit them to 1 per player. So every team then could always have a guranteed set of vision to play around - though most of the times their opponents also know what they do see and can play around that. It would certainly change the dynamic of the game a tad, no idea if it´s for better or for worse...

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-24T17:18:03.341+0000)

as the item´s combat stats are neither gold nor slot-efficient at any time and no team truly needs 3sightstones to set up vision it would still only be some junglers that would be happy about more options.

Right now nobody runs 3 sightstones because of the reasons you stated. If it were more slot efficient because it gave combat stats, you might start seeing 3 SS, 4 sweeper teams.

So you could argue it´s an unneccesary buff to jungle-nid, but that´s about it i think.

Plus, jungle nid can always be nerfed, so yeah, I'm with you on this: it buffing jg nid is not a good reason not to make a change

I think apart from switching wards to jungle/support items the only way to get along without a sightstone would be to radically change green-wards: make them visible but invulnerable and limit them to 1 per player. So every team then could always have a guranteed set of vision to play around - though most of the times their opponents also know what they do see and can play around that. It would certainly change the dynamic of the game a tad, no idea if it´s for better or for worse...

Personally, I like playing around vision denial, so I don't think I like this particular change. However, I also think you're completely right that we'd need to make some radical changes to how wards work to get along without Sightstone. The one I'm currently thinking about is, what if stealth wards weren't purchasable?

The more I think about this, the more it becomes clear to me that, without radical changes to how wards work or the meta, supports (and maybe junglers) will always be expected to do more than their fair share of the vision game.

I'm on mobile right now, and my thoughts on the 'meta' part of that last sentence are too long to type now but I'll certainly type them out later.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

However, I also think you're completely right that we'd need to make some radical changes to how wards work to get along without Sightstone. The one I'm currently thinking about is, what if stealth wards weren't purchasable?

then it would be incredible hard to balance out setting vision and denying vison, especially if you take out sightstone on top. It also would hurt laners that want to help out with vision early-mid but now suddenly would either need to go for a trinket they might not want or just canßt do anything instead of just spending 75-150g on wards every time they go back to buy

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

it makes sightstone an item that can compete with trinket useage. Your team needs sightstone+sweepers because vision denial is an important part of vision control. If sightstone were deleted then you would have to have upgraded yellow trinkets to maintain vision, and then you can't deny vision, and there is no more fog of war.

also you don't want HP? it is a stat that works on everyone.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

it makes sightstone an item that can compete with trinket useage. Your team needs sightstone+sweepers because vision denial is an important part of vision control. If sightstone were deleted then you would have to have upgraded yellow trinkets to maintain vision, and then you can't deny vision, and there is no more fog of war.

also you don't want HP? it is a stat that works on everyone.

Sightstone doesn't compete with trinkets, though. If it did and was losing, as you suggest, people would build trinkets instead of sightstones. As it is, every support rushes SS and a sweeper.

You're saying that less vision denial -> more vision, but you're leaving it that there's no more sightstone, so while you have less vision denial you also have fewer wards to place in the first place. If there's too much vision you buff sweeper and/or nerf upgraded yellow. It's not that there's no vision denial left, it's that you have to make a choice between vision and vision denial.

Yes, hp works on everyone. AD works on everyone too. That doesn't mean it's the best stat on everyone or that everyone benefits equally. Tanks benefit from hp much more than other supports. They are also the dominant picks right now. I don't believe this is a coincidence. This is one of the problems I hope to solve.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Sightstone doesn't compete with trinkets, though.

but... but... that's exactly what they are doing.... as you say,

Upgraded yellow trinket already provides nearly as much (and sometimes more) vision as a sightstone;

.

If it did and was losing, as you suggest,

It isn't losing per se it's just heading in that direction. buff after buff on trinkets mean that sightstone is a less and less enticing option. Continuing to buff trinkets means there is no cost for vision anymore, which was always a tradeoff we had. If you wanted vision/vision denial it cost you an item slot for the team. I don't think we should have to make the choice between vision and vision denial, both are equally important in maintaining the vision game.

You're saying that less vision denial -> more vision, but you're leaving it that there's no more sightstone, so while you have less vision denial you also have fewer wards to place in the first place.

With upgraded yellows you can place 3 wards on the map at all times. Removing sightstone means that you can only participate in half the warding game, and that means that i can't set up vision around drag/baron without sending two people which means we lose a lot of pressure on the map which really hurts our chances to actually do anything about that objective once vision control has been established.

Yes, hp works on everyone. AD works on everyone too.

Everyone can safely use HP, not everyone can safely use their AD.

Tanks benefit from hp much more than other supports. They are also the dominant picks right now.

I really don't think that's true, they are strong sure, but so are many AP poke supports.

Either way removing sightstone means that every back supports would have to buy 3 wards to compliment their sweeper, which was the exact problem that the introduction of sightstone solved. With sightstone you buy it then your vision investment is done.

Abyssphere3 votes

Vision is incredibly important - in pro games the supports with their Sightstone and their sweeper trinkets STILL buy tons of wards, sacrificing buying actual items just for the extra vision control. If you remove Sightstone it will still be essential to take the red trinket, you're just forcing yourself to spend a lot more than 800g on wards over the course of a game.

Sightstone isn't an 800g sink that you could have used on combat stats. It's an 800g investment that saves you the much higher amount of gold that you'd have to spend on wards to be optimal without it. If you want to support well then in a world without Sightstone you will actually have less gold to spend on items than you have now.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

{quoted}

Vision is incredibly important - in pro games the supports with their Sightstone and their sweeper trinkets STILL buy tons of wards, sacrificing buying actual items just for the extra vision control. If you remove Sightstone it will still be essential to take the red trinket, you're just forcing yourself to spend a lot more than 800g on wards over the course of a game.

Sightstone isn't an 800g sink that you could have used on combat stats. It's an 800g investment that saves you the much higher amount of gold that you'd have to spend on wards to be optimal without it. If you want to support well then in a world without Sightstone you will actually have less gold to spend on items than you have now.

Radical idea: what if you could no longer purchase stealth wards?

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-07-24T14:41:57.005+0000)

Radical idea: what if you could no longer purchase stealth wards?

Why would that ever happen? Why would anyone ever propose deleting stealth wards from the store just so that supports could buy a bit more AP?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Why would that ever happen? Why would anyone ever propose deleting stealth wards from the store just so that supports could buy a bit more AP?

Because I'm doing hypotheticals here. I can't answer the 'Why?' question until I figure out what would actually happen. If we do the analysis and decide that removing stealth wards from the store would have a good effect on the game, that's why. But first we need to figure out what those effects are?

So, what do you think happen if we did that? I'm just thinking of crazy things right now, and working through scenarios in my head. I haven't decided if they're a good idea or not yet.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

{quoted}

Why would that ever happen? Why would anyone ever propose deleting stealth wards from the store just so that supports could buy a bit more AP?

So.

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-20T12:24:30.609+0000)

So.

They removed stealth wards for a completely different reason. If you're gonna go back to a six month old post to call someone out, make sure they were actually wrong. They did not remove stealth wards so that supports could spend more money on other stuff.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

{quoted}

They removed stealth wards for a completely different reason. If you're gonna go back to a six month old post to call someone out, make sure they were actually wrong. They did not remove stealth wards so that supports could spend more money on other stuff.

True, that's not why. Do I still get to say "I called it"?

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=000400000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-20T16:32:39.347+0000)

True, that's not why. Do I still get to say "I called it"?

Well, no. It's comparable to saying "I knew they'd nerf this champion!" when they get nerfed a few months later after a new item they like gets introduced. Something you predicted coming true isn't impressive if it comes true for a completely different reason to what you said.

Axis the Dragon2 votes

Devil's advocate:

A Champion getting nerfed is a much more common occurrence than an item (especially one as vital as Wards) being outright removed from the game, though. Like, calling a nerf to, say, Fiddlesticks (even if you're able to predict something as precise as "reduce Dark Winds base damage per level by 5") might actually happen, who knows. But Wards being removed? That's not something you can realistically predict, IMO.

/devil's advocate, out


I will have to agree, though, that someone can basically just spout as many "radical" ideas as they can (they're going to make Wit's End into an AD item! An alternative, more expensive Pink Ward is available that can go invisible! Thornmail for Magic Damage/Spells!) and there's always the off-chance that one of them might come true, should you list a very large number of possibilities.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I'm going to try arguing this using only posts I actually made in this thread and not thinking I did outside, for obvious credibility reasons.

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-21T06:02:46.466+0000)

Devil's advocate:

First off, I love it when people play Devil's advocate. Makes your position so much stronger.

I will have to agree, though, that someone can basically just spout as many "radical" ideas as they can (they're going to make Wit's End into an AD item! An alternative, more expensive Pink Ward is available that can go invisible! Thornmail for Magic Damage/Spells!) and there's always the off-chance that one of them might come true, should you list a very large number of possibilities.

I freely acknowledge here: There's not enough evidence to support my idea being a 'prediction' per se.

That being said, reducing the amount of vision a team can get was indeed a goal of these changes. From the OP:

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-24T11:07:38.597+0000)

  • It's now easier to tune how much vision should be on the map.
    • Right now there's a huge disparity between how much vision a team with a sightstone jg and a support who remembers to ward has, and a team whose support forgets to ward and whose jungler doesn't build a sightstone. Giving only trinkets and purchased wards for vision makes the vision scene less complicated, which makes it easier to balance.

Assuming you got here through my recent itemization post, I'll also point out the common thread with all of the posts I linked: none of them made it into the game exactly as-is. Which they wouldn't -- you don't just have an idea and put it in the game, you need to iterate, playtest (which I can't do, so my ideas stop at this stage), and iterate some more. The point is that all of my ideas were in the direction that Riot has taken.

Squarefighter1 votes

The prophet

dangopee2 votes

Remove sight stone and make upgraded yellow hold 3 charges. Also boots slot. I really want to have a dedicated boot slot.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Remove sight stone and make upgraded yellow hold 3 charges. Also boots slot. I really want to have a dedicated boot slot.

I'd like having 3 charges. Also the option of purchasing an instant trinket refill instead of taking up an inventory slot with a ward.

As for the boots idea, I rather like it but think it deserves a thread of its own, not just a subsection of this thread.

BastionKross2 votes

There's been a couple threads about this before, but I think it could add to the discussion here:

What if item 2049 had upgrades like jungle items? An enchantment for AD, AP, HP, armor/mr, mana/manaregen, movement speed, etc. It would allow supports to keep warding and sweeping, AND allow them to use that sightstone item slot for combat stats and actual power growth.

As a secondary idea, you could tie the sightstone to a summoner spell like item 1039 is to summoner 11 to (try to) prevent other roles from abusing items meant and balanced for supports. The question then becomes which summoner spell. summoner 7 ? summoner 13 ? summoner 3 ? Maybe, but it would probably be better to modify a weaker spell like {{summoner:2}} or to just invent a whole new summoner spell altogether. Maybe one that only works in a duo lane, and has a shorter CD so that it can be used liberally during the laning phase. Maybe one that works similar to item 3050 where it ties two champs together so that they gain benefits from being close to each other.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

There's been a couple threads about this before, but I think it could add to the discussion here:

What if item 2049 had upgrades like jungle items? An enchantment for AD, AP, HP, armor/mr, mana/manaregen, movement speed, etc. It would allow supports to keep warding and sweeping, AND allow them to use that sightstone item slot for combat stats and actual power growth.

The issue here is that (as we saw in s3) too much vision makes the game too snowbally. Giving SS good combat stats makes other roles want to pick it up for the vision, which makes games too snowbally.

As a secondary idea, you could tie the sightstone to a summoner spell like item 1039 is to summoner 11 to (try to) prevent other roles from abusing items meant and balanced for supports. The question then becomes which summoner spell. summoner 7 ? summoner 13 ? summoner 3 ? Maybe, but it would probably be better to modify a weaker spell like {{summoner:2}} or to just invent a whole new summoner spell altogether. Maybe one that only works in a duo lane, and has a shorter CD so that it can be used liberally during the laning phase. Maybe one that works similar to item 3050 where it ties two champs together so that they gain benefits from being close to each other.

So, the issue here is that if it's really strong, other lanes will take it anyway. Exhaust is a reasonable spell to take vs assassins mid. If it also gives me access to sighstone, exhaust will just become meta for mid laners. The only way to fix this is to create a trade-off for taking exhauast mid, otherwise something is going to get the nerfhammer hard (see also: lane smite).

MohawkBird2 votes

I agree with every point but the AP support one. The last thing we want is the support role being filled with just any mages building full AP because they can.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

Changes like that would break the support role. "Geez no sight stone? I guess you'll have to buy pink wards and spam that yellow trinket. It means a slot that provides no stats for 2 pink wards."

It is viable if normal wards are completely removed from the game, turning wards limited by CD from the trinkets.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cenobite Azaziel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-07-24T17:03:03.337+0000)

Changes like that would break the support role. "Geez no sight stone? I guess you'll have to buy pink wards and spam that yellow trinket. It means a slot that provides no stats for 2 pink wards."

It is viable if normal wards are completely removed from the game, turning wards limited by CD from the trinkets.

My line of thinking went in a similar way. What do you think would happen if we removed stealth wards from the game (but maybe allowed buying an instant trinket refill)? If we did that without the ability to refill, might be possible to remove the stealth ward limit too, because now the ward limit is based on recharge rate.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-07-24T17:08:28.658+0000)

My line of thinking went in a similar way. What do you think would happen if we removed stealth wards from the game (but maybe allowed buying an instant trinket refill)? If we did that without the ability to refill, might be possible to remove the stealth ward limit too, because now the ward limit is based on recharge rate.

Removing limits for any wards makes the support turn into a ward bot. "What? You wanna a zeke's? F**k no. Go buy more wards!"

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cenobite Azaziel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wFbJEJkN,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2015-07-25T09:59:18.296+0000)

Go buy more wards!"

Except for the part where we'd be removing the ability to buy wards.

Maple Crusader1 votes

I doubt that more people will start warding if Sightstone is removed.

The Queen Viper1 votes

Sightstone will always be the core item for supports and there is no reason whatsoever to not get it.

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