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This sums up every single problem with Bard's design.

Desiderium··17 votes·1,828 views

> {quoted} > > It's not them, it's Bard. > > Bard is bad for two reasons: > > 1. Other champions can contribute if your teammates don't play around you. > 2. Other champions don't punish your teammates for not playing around you. > > Compare Bard to Thresh. Thresh has a "You should play around me" skill in his Dark Passage. People who play Thresh already know that that doesn't work very well, because you can't rely on somebody else choosing to abandon their plan in favour of clicking on your lantern. But when somebody doesn't click on your lantern, what happens? You still contribute. You've still got your Death Sentence, you've still got Flay, you've still got The Box, and you've still got an on hit passive that does damage even if you don't wait 8-12 second for it to recharge. Oh, and you've got a passive that rewards staying in lane to contribute, while Bard's rewards abandoning it. > > And even if somebody doesn't click on your lantern, the enemy can't. Your ally might have missed out on some shielding and didn't get a free dash to your location, but their situation wasn't actively made worse by your attempt to help.

26 Comments

MiriaJiyuu11 votes

The problems with Bard I'd say are closer to

  1. People pick Bard with an ADC that can't effectively solo lane, regardless of who picked first, this is a problem.
  2. People don't effectively use the tunnels strategies. Have bard lure people through the tunnel to the rest of your team waiting on the other side.
  3. No Bard can ult effectively it seems. They always screw over their team.
  4. He actually has a stupid high skill cap to be effective and as such 80% of players shouldn't play him.
Rew7112 votes

I've been playing on the PBE a lot over the last 2 months, using the ranking system. I'm a level 5 Bard now and I might show you what a real bard is capable of.

P Can you say, over 800 damage in meeps? 60% slow? and a large area damage?

Q I've now got the stun under control and the slow is nice too.

W I leave these everywhere, late game I just hit you with it to give you MS and some health.

E Fast travel and its good for when I want to Q an enemy.

R This was hard but its now very efficient.

CubedJustice1 votes

Honestly, I feel like Bard's E is the best part of his kit if you're playing with the jungler. The E ganks are just so scary if they're even almost to turret.

Zavern1 votes

His W is the problem for me. Early game I love them to death, but late game all they are used for is their low heal and MS boost. You don't have time to have them charge up mid-late game.

48983507DEL11 votes

{quoted}

The problems with Bard I'd say are closer to

  1. People pick Bard with an ADC that can't effectively solo lane, regardless of who picked first, this is a problem.
  2. People don't effectively use the tunnels strategies. Have bard lure people through the tunnel to the rest of your team waiting on the other side.
  3. No Bard can ult effectively it seems. They always screw over their team.
  4. He actually has a stupid high skill cap to be effective and as such 80% of players shouldn't play him.

Completely agreed. He's just not a Solo Queue champion it seemed. I'd say any champ would be better for Solo Queue, even someone like Shen who is absolutely team reliant (basically just a support in top lane who can't solo carry), but in 5v5's he's amazing when ussed correctly in the right niche.

Inphernal4 votes

Yet another case of comparing apples and oranges

Anbaric2 votes

{quoted}

Yet another case of comparing apples and oranges

You mean apples and giraffes, right?

Xonra1 votes

{quoted}

You mean apples and giraffes, right?

Yes because it doesn't make sense to compare two champions that play the same role, in the same lane.

Guess every analyst should never tell a player that X is better than Y and compare them, because they aren't the same champ.

This is just a cop out response for people who can't give a proper response, and have to try and use this response to discredit what someone just said in comparing two champs.

RussoRed1 votes

cant u just learn to adjust to him calm down already there not going to change a well built champ thats new

djjomon1 votes

I see what you're getting at, kinda. But you're more saying that Thresh is easier and more intuitive to play with than Bard. So?

Otherwise, you have a point. Bard is hard to play with, and hard to play around. The teamwork involved to play him optimally is immense, probably more than any other champion, let alone support. The thing is though, he's not really a bad champion anymore. His recent buffs were actually enough to bring him to some viability. He's still not going to be a contested pick any time soon. But he's not quite weak anymore. He's just unpredictable in soloq. No one wants him because they still think he has an unpowered kit, and they don't know when he'll end up killing you with his ult.

Then there are the good bards. The ones landing their Q stuns, turning fights with their ults, knowing when to drop a health relic on you, or away from you, using portals in a way that won't get anyone caught out... Still not my preferred support, but I no longer expect to lose when I have one.

Going back to your Thresh point, which would I want when? I'd take Braum over either, honestly.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

{quoted}

He's still not going to be a contested pick any time soon.

I have to disagree with you somewhat there. He's not going to be contested in solo queue anytime soon, but in the LCS and in higher levels of team play, he is going to be a monster to deal with as a support. When used correctly, his ult is game changing. And the rest of his kit is really strong for a support. The Q will be crazy strong in the bot lane. He helps sustain his laner with his W and his E allows for high mobility to his team and to himself when roaming. His meeps are also really strong for harass and his range makes him one of the most viable users of Spellthief's Edge.

He will also be one of the few supports that won't fall behind as far in levels as he can gain experience through his chimes. He is very hard to play around, but with the organization of developed teams, I think he is going to be very strong.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter. Peace.

djjomon2 votes

You think he'll be picked up in competitive? I wouldn't say he'll never be played there, but I don't see it happening yet. Not until after MSI, and probably somewhere in Asia IMO... maybe NA in liek week 2 of the summer split.

Just my thoughts too. But I'm really interested in this. I'd love to see Bard played

Hard4Hamsters2 votes

They're playing on 5.7 which is where Bard got a majority of his buffs. Teams might hold out until 5.8 though to get the Exp boost from his chimes at later levels. I think he is going to be a high priority pick soon, honestly. I think the pro teams have been practicing with him since 5.7 and after 5.8 drops, he will be really strong. He is perfect for tower diving and you know teams will be able to get timing down to where they can place an Ori ball in a grouped up "Zhonya-d" team and pop her Ult to make some big plays. The utility in his Ult is going to be unmatched by any other champion as it affects champions, monsters, and towers.

The rest of his kit is very strong for a utility support as well. I promise you, he is going to be really strong in competitive, but he's still going to be weak in solo queue.

CubedJustice1 votes

I feel like bard is at his absolute strongest in platinum. Where players are mechanically and strategically apt, but don't control the map well. Bard punishes a lack of vision by being able to catch out players with magical journey and a team, or his ult, or stuns.

Xonra1 votes

{quoted}

You think he'll be picked up in competitive? I wouldn't say he'll never be played there, but I don't see it happening yet. Not until after MSI, and probably somewhere in Asia IMO... maybe NA in liek week 2 of the summer split.

Just my thoughts too. But I'm really interested in this. I'd love to see Bard played

I'd like to see him played, because I know for a fact I am NOT good with him, not even a little, so I'd at least like to see someone do it correctly, but at the same time I like the champ so little I don't know that I would bother still.

Xonra2 votes

[{quoted}](name=MyNamesAmsToki ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wEYtJqH0,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-05-07T19:02:00.047+0000) "but in the LCS and in higher levels of team play, he is going to be a monster to deal with as a support."

The problem is, most supports have already (very vocally) stated they don't like him, and even the buffs he has gotten won't be enough for him to be professionally viable. some have been a bit...over the top saying he is terrible,trash, etc, but there aren't many that like him.

I have only seen one support player (pro player) say they liked him, which was a chinese player I admit I can't remember the name of, and both games he played him, he did terrible, and hasn't touched him since (I wish I remember his name, but I'm watching MSI and just too lazy to look it up at the moment).

Xonra1 votes

{quoted}

I see what you're getting at, kinda. But you're more saying that Thresh is easier and more intuitive to play with than Bard. So?

Otherwise, you have a point. Bard is hard to play with, and hard to play around. The teamwork involved to play him optimally is immense, probably more than any other champion, let alone support. The thing is though, he's not really a bad champion anymore. His recent buffs were actually enough to bring him to some viability. He's still not going to be a contested pick any time soon. But he's not quite weak anymore. He's just unpredictable in soloq. No one wants him because they still think he has an unpowered kit, and they don't know when he'll end up killing you with his ult.

Then there are the good bards. The ones landing their Q stuns, turning fights with their ults, knowing when to drop a health relic on you, or away from you, using portals in a way that won't get anyone caught out... Still not my preferred support, but I no longer expect to lose when I have one.

Going back to your Thresh point, which would I want when? I'd take Braum over either, honestly.

I think the main issue with Bard (if you are comparing him directly to other supports, which realistically you have to as they are in the same role/lane) is that he has the highest barrier of entry to learn compared to any of the other supports.

If we look at Thresh, he is fairly easy to learn.

  • You have a hook, which champs before him already had, so not a new concept.
  • He has a shield, not hard to figure out, just click the lantern, new...ish when he came out.
  • His ult is different in how it works specifically but it is just a "don't stand in the bad" which every game has, not just Mobas
  • And at best, flay takes a little getting used to reflexively. He has a very low barrier of entry and skill floor, but he has a lot of room for really good Thresh players to master.

Bard has a ridiculously high skill floor that truthfully leaves much less room for mastering, because you have to be pretty good with him in the first place.

  • His Q is just a skillshot honestly, nothing new, just a bit different in how it works.
  • His heal is terrible (opinion) as it drops something that is a bit awkward for league players at least, as it isn't instant and has to "cook", and can just simply be destroyed by an enemy.
  • His passage ability is cool in theory, but again, a new idea ability wise, and the fact an enemy can use it, unlike the lantern as brought up above, can be frustrating.
  • His ult...I feel was a great idea - terrible execution, when it came to creation. Can stop towers - Good. Can hit minions and monsters - Good. Can hit enemies - good. Can hit teammates - immediately ruins all the three previous positives (again, my opinion).

Look at some of the other current "Meta" supports (just looking at solo queue right now):

Leona - Pretty straight forward, low barrier of entry, high skill cap potential. Annie - She has been around forever, pretty straight forward, not really a high skill cap, but so straightforward. Alistar - Also straightforward, mid ish barrier of entry only because you can die easily trying to play him aggressive if you don't know what you are doing Morg - Pretty straightforward, very low barrier of entry, mid skill ceiling. Nautilus - Pretty straightforward. Hook - Shield - self aoe - click knock up ult, simple passive. Bruam - blah blah, easy to get into - blah blah, straightforward skills

All of the current supports are very easy to get into and have room to grow. Bard is trying to stuff too much into a single kit, which has potential, but Bard to me is like Dota 2. Sure it may be neat when you get used to playing it, but it is such a turn off getting to that point in the first place, so I'm just gonna go play something I can enjoy out of the gate (pick your comparison game there in that context).

Spoofzor1 votes

He can be very strong, that said his problem is that he has a weak early game. Due to this your very reliable on surviving til mid / end game. Your team has to adapt to bard. If your team falls behind you can't pick up chimes which makes bard fall behind even faster.

His kit its pretty cool though it really could use some buffs here and there. Let me put up some suggestion.

Passive - The spawn location of chimes is not ideal. If a bard stay in base they spawn all over the map. This is problematic mechanic especially when falling behind. You can't get those chimes 9/10 times. Or in early game if you go pick up some items they will spawn at points you would rather not go to. ( top lane or far into the enemy jungle)

This needs to be looked at. the passive is so unreliable that it actually can set you back big time if the chimes don't spawn properly.

Q The Q is pretty okay though it does lack a that bid of range. A Buff for this spell could be that for every champion stunned bard will get a Meep. This way you can actually do some follow up damage. Especially early game he is lacking the burst to keep a wave from pushing.

W His W is a fun spell but not very strong it costs a lot of mana. One way to make it more useful is to incoporate a percentage healing over time. This will make his heals better getting near end game when you mostly just instant buff people.

upgrade it so it will heal for 1% of the total health as an addition. A way to further buff this heal could be by collecting chimes; Say for every 15 collected chimes your heals will heal for an extra 1% of the champions max health. This will scale up by 1% every 15 collected chimes. so at 15 chimes it will be 2% then 3% etc. and cap it at say 6%

Another upgrade could be that the shrines that are getting destroyed will give visibility toward the one walking over it. This will allow the W to used more offensively. It is already possible to use it as a ward but it will be more useful this way.

E This spell is quite oke, though the initial passing speed could be buffed a little for friendly champions on its first form. Currently it offers no real use for upgrading. Perhaps it would be nice to being able to destroy the portal after 3/4 seconds. This way every one has the time to move though but if the enemy is slow its possible to separate them.

R This spell is really a double edge sword. It can save life's and destroy team fights. if one can master it its really strong. That said it could use a little buff. It would be really beneficial to make this spell self cast. ALT + R. If self cast it works like a regular Zhonjas this makes the spell some what more usefull.

Overall i think bard is a strong support but does lack some stability in game play. His support roll is cool but really iffy at best.

Delioth1 votes

They did just mess with the chimes so they won't spawn in the enemy jungle before like... 5 minutes or something. I remember reading it in patch notes but don't remember the timing on it.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

just make certainly T rework him He'll be broken as shit and you all can jerk off about it. problem solved.

Martyrofsand2 votes

Bard as reworked by CertaintlyT

Q--Instead of traveling through 1 target it will instead deal damage in a cone behind them and stun all targets hit for 2 seconds, 5 second CD. W--Now grants move speed, attack speed, and if 2 are near by stepping one 1 will teleport you to the other, and doubles the healing of both. E--Enemies can no longer use it, it can work both directions, and after passing through it allies receive 3/6/9/12/15% bonus to all stats, this effect stacks everytime they pass through it with no limit and lasts for an hour. R--Instead of being placed in stasis enemies hit are simply stunned and allies effected are restored to full HP and mana.

Yeah that seems like a CertaintlyT champ.

Pæan1 votes

You forgot one!

Meeps now latch onto the enemy attacked and deal damage over time and give true vision until the meet is killed. It is also possible for enemies to harm each other while attempting to remove a meep.

Hidden passive: if you are killed in a 1v1 by bard you will hear his horns non stop until you restart your client.

DeusVult1 votes

Oh, you mean that thresh has a very loaded up kit with almost no downsides and has done great with it

while Bard actually has a kit with enemy counter play beyond "dodge the hooks"

Thresh wouldn't be nearly as much of a constant strong pick if enemies could take dark passage

but w/e

doctor clutchy1 votes

I've been playing as Bard pretty exclusively since I got back into LOL about a week ago (I've taken breaks on/off since beta). Just normals, so what I write here might not be worth anything.

In the beginning it was pretty hard to Bard. But generally speaking now, I feel like I do pretty well in 8/10 games. I think part of the problem is the way people imagine him using his skill set. I don't roam very much unless my lane opponents have recalled. Otherwise, I just stick to warding and picking up chimes in the river. The necessity of roaming may be more noticeable in upper-tier ranked play, but I don't really know how many people here fall into that bracket.

Bard's got a great kit, IMO. He's got a stun, lane sustain, powerful mobility, pretty strong auto-attacks with a slow, and the ult. I think the advantage of his movement and movement-impairing abilities is probably his greatest advantage for baits, distractions, scouting/warding and maintaining a solid position in team fights. Mostly, it feels like he was meant to troll the other team.

Something that I've noticed: When an opponent enters the portal, that's like 2-3 seconds that they are not attacking or anything. They are essentially out of the fight, and setting themselves up for an easy stun, every single time! They literally click, and sign up to be out of the fight for 3-5 seconds (depending on length of the portal and you getting the stun off). Now, I understand that this advantage probably applies mostly to the players I'm coming up against in normal solo queue, but nonetheless, I think it may be worth noting. The thing is, abilities that are so multi-use, such as Magical Journey, have so many different ways of being effective, and have greater tactical & strategic advantages than just showing up and ganking with your team. Baiting, distracting, even just opening a portal in an area where you know they are, without even going through it, can make an opponent flee. Thinking outside the box with Magical Journey, I think solo queue Bard can be great even without a coordinated team over voice chat.

I think people also try too hard with the ult. In a fight, just ulting the ADC or a tower from the get-go and allowing your team to position around them is huge. That alone has won a large percentage of fights. I'm really surprised that Riot implemented this ultimate, though. Used from a place of panic or uncertainty is I think the problem. Players who play Bard might benefit from outlining specific circumstances where they blow the ult, so that they avoid throwing the game with a single toss of an ability.

Anyway, just my own thoughts on some of what I've observed. I think he's fun and I don't feel like a waste of space on teams, generally. I'm not some masterful Bard player or anything and there's plenty of room to grow, but I feel like I've got a decent handle to carry my weight on a team without them playing around me.

Velasan1 votes

Bard is very good right now. It is having teammates with no idea how his kit works that's the problem.

HeWolf1 votes

Bard has taken the word "Utility" to a whole new level. Thresh himself has some of this dimension, but the difference between them is that Thresh is the king of utility by just having an overloaded kit. Bard acquired this status by having 4 strictly interactive skills and a "move your as*" passive.

I can accept the comparaison between them because they are the two only champions that would have almost the same impact even if they didn't deal any damage (I could give you Braum though).

The difference remains in skill-cap. Thresh's skill-cap is medium and his skill-ceiling is huge because he has so many things to master that you can start with one of them and then get used to the others. Bard's skill-cap is stupidly high from the start+requires teammates who collaborate, because his kit needs to be played almost to his full potential to be par with other ones. At that point of skill, it's just a matter of numbers. However, I think that if Bard reaches an acceptable ~50% winrate in SoloQ, he would be so damn strong in ranked 5's that it would be a free win.

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