It's not that Thunderlord's is "2 gud"

Desiderium·Dec 14, 2015·162 votes·7,685 views

It's that the other masteries are just weak in comparison.

When a support is taking Thunderlord's, you need to ask yourself: Is it because Support keystones are weak, or Thunderlord's is too strong? Currently the only really support oriented high level keystone is Windspeaker's, and that's only for the ones with shields and heals. If we can provide more keystone masteries to champions who need them, we're going to see less Thunderlord's. Why? Because Thunderlord's is the best choice FOR PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.

Don't nerf Thunderlord's. Because a year from now when we have 10 more keystone masteries, it's going to need buffs. And if we leave it the way it is now, a year from now we'll say "gosh, remember how dumb people were back in the day when they went for Thunderlord's?" then someone with a brain will say "nah it's only because they didn't have a choice." Choice is what we need, not nerfs.

EDIT: RITO ACTUALLY LISTENED TO US! WOOT

121 Comments

BastionKrossDec 14, 201553 votes

Basically this. Most keystones are so specialized that only a few champs out of the entire roster will ever use them to full effectiveness. Thunderlords is the keystone that will work pretty well on just about every champ in the game, so it's become the "default" keystone. It's the keystone you use when no other keystone seems to fit.

And it's good that we have a keystone like that, otherwise what would you do if thunderlords didn't exist and no other keystone worked well with your build? You'd be SOL.

The best way to promote diversity isn't to weaken thunderlords, it's to make the other keystones more attractive to more champions. Who the hell is going to pick stormraiders for anything? Games are generally too quick for strength of the ages. DFT is purposefully weak on nearly everyone because DoT mages abuse it. Warlords is best used to sustain in lane, but hardly anyone has crit that early. The list goes on.

Add to that the fact that the cunning tree is far and away the best of the three, containing nearly everything you could want, and it's no wonder everyone loves to go 18 points in it. Hell, if I could, I'd put 30 points into it.

SpecterVonBarenDec 14, 201519 votes

Grasp of the Undying is fantastic though, I can play support Poppy and with just FotM, sightstone and an Aegis I can steal 100 health from someone. While that's not much compared to what an ADC can do on every auto late game, that's some good damage on a tanky champion.

LankPantsDec 14, 20155 votes

Agreed, Grasp certainly is better on lategame scaling tanks. While the 100 odd damage might not be as good as Thunderlord's it also heals you for the same amount and can be proced multiple times in one fight.

Plus when I'm playing 5.5K HP supertank Sej it winds up doing about as much damage as Thunderlord's would anyway :)

Yosuke ApperuDec 14, 20155 votes

Don't say that! They'll nerf Sejuani and the key stone mastery 1-2 times each XD

Spaceman5pffDec 14, 20152 votes

They honestly need to re-buff the % HP proc on Sejuani W, what with the cinderhulk nerfs she is just SOL when you combine the two.

Yosuke ApperuDec 15, 20151 votes

Imo personally, I feel as though she isn't weak per say.. Her job is tanking and she's still amazing at it. Now if you are going to take her for being full tank that can still 1v1 and even 2v1.. she's not that champion anymore.. However a possible revert to atleast half of her w nerf just to see how it goes wouldn't be a terrible idea

Spaceman5pffDec 15, 20151 votes

She was balanced back when spirit of the ancient golem gave 25% bonus hp. I find it hard to believe that giving her her old w numbers wouldnt make her op considering cinderhulk only gives 15%

LankPantsDec 15, 20151 votes

Her job is tanking and she's still amazing at it.

It's really not. Champs who's job is tanking are significantly tankier than Sej. Just look at Nautilus, he's got a shield for 18% of his HP. Sej doesn't have anything similar to that to help her excel at tanking like a Naut or Ali does.

She has to be able to deal good damage because otherwise she's just worse than these durable supporty tanks who bring similar CC to her whilst also having considerably better durability.

At the moment she just lacks the damage to make her worth playing. Why would I pick Sej if jungle Naut deals similar damage until late in the game while also being far more durable?

However a possible revert to atleast half of her w nerf just to see how it goes wouldn't be a terrible idea

Personally I'd say this is not the correct way to buff Sej. You should be emphasize the unique traits of champs whenever you make changes to them. For Sej this is her dealing more damage as she becomes tankier, not as you do.

I'd say either change the 6% enemy HP on W to 6% of Sej's HP or just remove it all together and buff the HP ratio on the AOE/DOT component of her W. Then add a little bonus damage to monsters on the W hit because monsters have more HP than Sej early so this sort of change would hinder her early clear.

dr lichdeathDec 14, 20152 votes

meh shoddy! i pick sion get 6k hp and grasp now thats some good dmg

Twitch ChatDec 14, 201527 votes

i think this is one of the rare cases that i actually agree with this argument. stormraiders surge, warlords bloodlust, fervor of battle, and strength of the ages are all just straight garbage. even heroes that have nearly direct synergy with these masteries end up going thunderlords because the other options are just not as strong. 10-180 + .4 bonus ad + .1 ap every 20 seconds isn't that much but most masteries are completely pointless.

DesideriumDec 14, 201516 votes

Exactly. And not only this, but if Riot ends up nerfing Thunderlord's, ALL keystones will be weak, and that's going to ruin the entire point of having keystone masteries in the first place.

D rokDec 14, 201514 votes

Honestly, I'd be totally ok with this. It will make future balancing easier. These masteries are going to be a nightmare to balance for 130 champions. I'd far rather they made them weaker overall, instead of having to buff/nerf half the champion pool to account for them.

It Hertz When IPDec 14, 201525 votes

Then we're right back to the original mastery system. Which personally I was fine with.

D rokDec 14, 201515 votes

Agreed. I think the masteries should have a more muted effect, and focus more on interesting options, rather than just power and damage.

I don't think anyone this season was thinking "You know what needs to be way more important next season? MASTERIES."

RetroRage96Dec 14, 20151 votes

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they were thinking...

It Hertz When IPDec 14, 20152 votes

I was thinkin' Arby's....

Lovely PantsDec 14, 20157 votes

For the most part, I'm not a big fan of either mastery system we've had for this reason. I don't like the arbitrary stat crutch that masteries represent. Not quite as much as I hate the arbitrary crutch that runes are. I think there are some better balancing reasons for masteries existing, but I'd rather see the majority of masteries which translate into straightforward power for a champion removed and have that power reabsorbed into individual champions.

I don't mind masteries being somewhat more impactful, but only in certain areas. Now, maybe I'm misguided in these thoughts, but I feel like the best purpose of the mastery system in League as it is now should be to allow the following to occur:

-Poorly-scaling early game customization which allows lane flexibility Allowing champions to tweak their experience slightly to accommodate what kind of lane and opponents they are going to be up against, with some options to gamble for slight advantages based on how they think they will perform. Accomplished by very minimal stat allotment, situational sustain option tradeoffs and such.

-Granting some support to roles which must function with less reliable income streams. By which I mean supports and junglers, of course. Things like bandit, out-of-combat movement and sustain options, and large monster specific effects are kinds of things which work more specifically to aid these kinds of champions throughout the game without being overbearing on others.

-Less kit synergistic gameplay options. Objective control/vision options like the scouting mastery we used to have, situational movement, ally dependent buffs like the new assassain mastery, performance dependent masteries like Dangerous Game or Bounty Hunter. All of these kinds of option I feel have a healthier space to work with and be meaningful decisions according to individual gameplay preferences if they aren't competing with straight up reliable damage and defense options.

In particular, I don't think pseudo-ability level damage and defenses are ever going to be in a satisfying place. They are always going to mess with the intended combat interactions of a champion's kit and favor some champions over others in a non-meaningful way. You can balance the outliers around these masteries, but why create another complication in the process?

Mael broDec 14, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y62KnjO2,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-14T02:45:51.216+0000)

Then we're right back to the original mastery system. Which personally I was fine with.

"Change is good" - Khazix

TTUPhoenixDec 14, 20159 votes

Strength of Ages isn't garbage. It's just best on a specific set of champions: jungle tanks, preferably those who scale off HP. I've been doing quite well with it on Skarner, and while I haven't tried it yet, Naut and Sej should also really appreciate it. It's just too hard to stack for lane tanks.

LankPantsDec 14, 20154 votes

Actually Strength of Ages is straight up outclassed by Grasp of the Undying on Sej and Bond of Stone on Naut.

Bond of Stone gives more selfish durability late game than Strength of Ages unless you are straight stacking resistances. It also has an additional effect which is very good on more supportive champs like Naut.

Grasp of the Undying is super good on Sej (and also quite good on Naut) because of the raw amount of HP they stack. At 4K HP (which would be mid-late game for these champs ~5 items) Grasp deals 120 damage and heals for the same amount. That's almost always better than just having 300 extra HP in almost every case.

Maybe a slightly unpopular opinion here but the best use case for SoA is as an anti-assassin tool by squishy champions. For them 300 HP is a significant increase in durability as compared to another drop in the ocean for Sej and Naut. You combine this mastery with PD and Death's Dance and you are very hard to assassinate without having to make a significant investment into defensive stats.

Slamurai JackDec 14, 20151 votes

I'm not quite sure I buy that. Strength of the Ages provides a much stronger mid game transition than Grasp while you build your FH second. And Sejuani's late game is already so good that investing more into it with Grasp just seems like overkill. I'll need to test it more to get a better feel for it, but in the games I've tried, I've felt like Strength of Ages was just better overall.

kile147Dec 14, 20151 votes

The way I see it as there is no reason to get Strength of Ages in lane, because you're either duo and bond of stone is better at every point, or you're solo and grasp of the undying wins you trades. I think people underestimate the raw trading potential that grasp of the undying gives you in lane as a tank.

As a jungler you have more reason to go Strength of Ages because you generally won't be interacting with your teammates or the enemies for extended periods of time so getting that mid game health spike is good.

Slamurai JackDec 14, 20152 votes

We definitely agree on Strength of Ages of laning. It's horrible for laning. I do think it's pretty good in the jungle though, particularly on champions that rush a cdr armor item after cinderhulk like Olaf, Sejuani, and Malphite. Grasp of the Undying is easily the best laning mastery though, even moreso than Thunderlords.

Spaceman5pffDec 14, 20152 votes

I agree with a lot of that, but find Sejuani to have a lackluster performance lategame outside of her ultimate what with being castrated by W nerfs and then having cinderhulk neutered as well.

Slamurai JackDec 14, 20151 votes

That's because you're missing the secret my friend. item 3025 This is what you want. I'm 25-10 on Sejuani now that I started building IBG every game. That's a 71% winrate. Ditch Frozen Heart and start picking up the Frozen Fist. You won't regret it.

Spaceman5pffDec 14, 20152 votes

I mean i just hardly even play Sej anymore. She just feels awful to me compared to in season 4 when i basically mained her.

CherysseDec 14, 201514 votes

Actually if they nerf TLord they will ultimately run out of their own logic for all the changes they implemented... first, they made masteries weaker in general, and now the compensation (keystones) are in most cases so conditional and weak AF... if they go on the same way they are going they are going to sht all over the mastery system they have created... but I guess they already did...

Talon12Dec 14, 20151 votes

they buffed thunderlords because it was weak. what are they going to do if its "op"? Buffing the other ones that are pointless would be a good start.

Vincent LuciusDec 14, 20151 votes

Didn't they just buff the AD ratio and the cooldown?

kile147Dec 14, 20151 votes

Yes, but that cool down buff was a 33% reduction I think. They also fixed the bugs that it had.

Vincent LuciusDec 14, 20152 votes

It was thirty, they decreased it by ten. No need to go into percentages for basic math. And the bug was that it didn't work with multiple people taking it.

Talon12Dec 15, 20151 votes

and its gonna be nerfed to 15/20/25% bonus ad and 25 sec cd because its "OP" just you wait

Vincent LuciusDec 15, 20151 votes

Apparently they're buffing the other masteries, aside from the one that reduces damage.

Talon12Dec 21, 20151 votes

yeah, read it on pbe, they are nerfing the buff they gave to storm raiders though, apparently that butt was too strong.

and they are rebalancing the damage reduction, more reduction with no ally, but less total reduction with an ally

Bruddah MaseDec 14, 20155 votes

Thunderlord's is just stupidly designed. Why was lich bane proc ap ratio nerfed? why was dfg deleted and liandries nerfed? Burst champions are designed to the perfect amount of damage for their role(ideally) and such effects as thunderlord's break them when viable. If you've laned vs renekton lately and had him do 75% of your health in one combo you know what im talking about.

AudiomancyDec 14, 20154 votes

I think Thunderlord's is fine. Then again, my main support is Sona , and Windspeaker's is useless on her since Sona's healing is garbage before 400 AP.

NebuulDec 14, 201517 votes

What does the strength of her heal have to do with it? Spam it during engages and give your adc very real damage reduction.

LankPantsDec 14, 20152 votes

He's wrong in saying it's useless, it's definitely the second best keystone on Sona.

Thunderlord's is just a little bit better right now. It makes sense too, the items that have always synergised best with Sona (regardless of if she can realistically buy them or not) are the ones that add extra burst ratios to her kit, like Lichbane and Luden's.

Thunderlord's acts as a mini Luden's that Sona can abuse to make her lane poke even better. It's basically perfectly synergistic enough that even though Windspeaker's is generally stronger on people who can use it it's not quite on level with Thunderlord's on Sona.

Sire HippingtonDec 14, 20151 votes

calling it **mini **ludens when it does twice the damage is kinda funny

kile147Dec 14, 20152 votes

Not early game, which is more likely what he was talking about.

BeuhlakorDec 14, 20154 votes

Since the nerf to Fervor of Battle, almost everybody except a handful of champions is running Thunderlord.

The main reason for that is because Thunderlord can be proced quickly whereas Warlord's Bloodlust and Fervor of Battle are severely limited in their use :

Warlord provides sustain and bonus AS but it only works against champions. Except for and you need a lot of stuff to make it proc and "feel" a difference. Thunderlord also only works against champions, but it is effective since lvl 1 and since most of its damages come from your champion's level, you will "feel" it quickly.
Fervor of Battle provides bonus physical damages on each AA. But since you can't stack it anymore on minions and monsters, you need to do long trades in order to stack it fully. As a result, this mastery is still somehat good on champions that have AA reset or very high AS like but it is now absolute garbage on every ranged champion in the game because despite the extra 2 stacks you get from using an ability, you will still need to AA the ennemy A LOT in order to reach the 10 stacks. Melee champions are not affected as much because they get 2 stacks per AA.
On the other hand, Thunderlord provides direct damages boost since lvl 1. It scales with level and with bonus AD / AP making it useful even when you don't have a lot of stuff or are behind. It also prives bonus burst damages, making it especially strong in short trades or in burst fight scenarios where you want to quickly kill a dangerous ennemy.
We could also point out to how Precision is vastly superior to the Armor pen you get from the Ferocity tree.

Solution :

You should be able to still proc Warlord / stack Fervor on minions and monsters but with reduced efficiency.

=> Fervor of Battle : you can have 2 stacks by attacking minions or monsters. Ranged champions can have up to 4 stacks by attacking minions or monsters. => Warlord's Bloodlust : you do not get the bonus AS by attacking minions, but you heal yourself for 5% of your critical strike damages (10 seconds CD).

Numbers are given as example.

SirHeavyScrotumDec 14, 20152 votes

I really like your ideas for re-buffing the ones that were already nerfed, so that they don't feel so useless. This should get some attention!

Although side note, fervor should stack more on melee champs than ranged champs, I think that's what you meant but got it backwards.

I've personally been taking Thunderlords on Jax whose kit screams fervor, just because it's so much easier to proc a Thunderlords rather than get stacks of fervor (especially early game when you can't exactly auto attack them 5 times in their minion wave without dying). I would probably do the same with Xin but haven't played him in a while.

CasterGilgameshDec 14, 20151 votes

oh my fucking god is riot really going to nerf it?

DesideriumDec 14, 20155 votes

Knowing them they probably would. I made this thread as a preemptive measure.

Pierce The VealDec 14, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y62KnjO2,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-12-14T02:30:08.599+0000)

Knowing them they probably would. I made this thread as a preemptive measure.

If they do then people might just end up going grasp of the undying because 3% of max health as damage plus heal every four seconds is nothing to scoff at. Sucks for range I guess in that it's halved, but still great for people like akali or irelia.

StrawberrycocoaDec 14, 20151 votes

Scrublord with a question here. I get that Thunderlord's Decree is really strong right now, but the rest of the masteries in Cunning don't benefit damage dealers the way Ferocity does. Is Thunderlord's Decree worth the loss of damage buffs Ferocity gives?

Red RyuDec 14, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Scrublord with a question here. I get that Thunderlord's Decree is really strong right now, but the rest of the masteries in Cunning don't benefit damage dealers the way Ferocity does. Is Thunderlord's Decree worth the loss of damage buffs Ferocity gives?

Cunning is better for burst and assassins, ferocity is better for DPS and sustained damage.

Champion SkinDec 14, 20156 votes

The only thing you give up is the last two things in the tree... so basically you trade % pen for flat pen (Or 5% CDR + 5% higher CDR cap) and then you get Thunderlords instead of one of the other keystone masteries

All the other things in the Ferocity tree you can still get if you want them and Thunderlords

QuephaDec 14, 20151 votes

Riot keeps balancing masteries around the champions that synergize perfectly with them, so if you aren't playing Yasuo or Trynd then the crit mastery is numerically garbage compared to all other options.

SteelflameDec 14, 20153 votes

The thing is, the moment it works on minions makes any ADC who can just grab an early Cloak or Brawlers have infinite lane sustain without delaying a core part of their build, in trade for a faintly weaker AA trade set at the start.