Why is AD getting buffed on PBE

xJLx MCHammer·Apr 11, 2017·43 votes·2,326 views

Overall AP is getting nerfed Tanks overall hp and armor is getting nerfed. Tank also also losing their ability to deal with AD late game even more

Makes no sense. Tanks are actually in a good spot vs AP users. The only actual buff to late game tanks is some stupid active that gives you 100% more hp but less damage. It mays sound good but all that means is that are now played similarly to what Supports are. It means tanks, like support, must follow the bot lane adc throughout the game

Why is riot so focused on making the entire game revolve around ADC. Literally every thing is starting to be balanced around how to work around a ADC.

It's a joke! Every role is being transformed on how they relate to ADC

58 Comments

Gregor GysiApr 11, 201729 votes

Tanks armor is getting buffed, HP is getting nerfed.

Last Whisper is getting nerfed hard (45% - 35%) same with BC (30% -> 24%), Runaans gets a net nerf, BORK gets a net nerf and all those items that are not bought atm (Ravenous Hydra, BT, DD) get 5 AD.

That means that the strong AD items are now weaker and the weak ones are stronger - net nerf overall - especially against tanks.

On top of the new tank items this makes tanks much stronger against ADC's as all those meta ADC's with BC and LW lose 16% pen while gaining 5 AD. Melee AD champions gain 5-10 AD depending on whether they actually want to build Ravenous over Titanic now.

Stop complaining about huge buffs to your class, it makes tank complaints look ridiculous.

xJLx MCHammerApr 11, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gregor Gysi,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wELGhkex,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-11T12:12:07.587+0000)

Tanks armor is getting buffed, HP is getting nerfed.

Last Whisper is getting nerfed hard (45% - 35%) same with BC (30% -> 24%), Runaans gets a net nerf, BORK gets a net nerf and all those items that are not bought atm (Ravenous Hydra, BT, DD) get 5 AD.

That means that the strong AD items are now weaker and the weak ones are stronger - net nerf overall - especially against tanks.

On top of the new tank items this makes tanks much stronger against ADC's as all those meta ADC's with BC and LW lose 16% pen while gaining 5 AD. Melee AD champions gain 5-10 AD depending on whether they actually want to build Ravenous over Titanic now.

Stop complaining about huge buffs to your class, it makes tank complaints look ridiculous.

Total armour and HP is going down. Removal of kiting abilities by tank is being removed, along with the ability to reduce crit damage.

Yes, penetration itself is getting nerfed but the damage adc do to champion with a lot of health is also being increase

Furthermore, adc is getting huge surviveablity from GB. Riot is also bugging almost all AD items in terms of how much AD gives

Gregor GysiApr 11, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wELGhkex,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T12:18:14.296+0000)

Total armour and HP is going down. Removal of kiting abilities by tank is being removed, along with the ability to reduce crit damage.

Total armor is going UP -> https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/8g2H4vjy-midseason-durability-feedback

New items got introduced, Randuins got an AS slow buff and maybe more is coming (link 1, link 2

That means tanks will have more ARMOR and less HP and now this happens:

Yes, penetration itself is getting nerfed but the damage adc do to champion with a lot of health is also being increase

LDR is currently the weaker option, that means nobody buys it - the stronger option got a buildpath nerf aswell. And keep in mind that tanks now have more armor, so the pen nerf (by 10%!) hits even harder and the HP buff even less as tanks will have less HP.

Furthermore, adc is getting huge surviveablity from GB. Riot is also bugging almost all AD items in terms of how much AD gives

I commented on the AD item thing, it barely matters and even champions that'd build BT, DD and Hydra (nobody does that) would still be weaker than before due to BC and LW nerfs. Realistically you get 5 or 10 AD more at best, that's just a meme compared to the %pen loss.

B00B00Apr 11, 20171 votes

meanwhile the new energised but with multiple interactions and speedups.......im going back to crit first thing when this patch is out.

AmazoXApr 11, 20173 votes

Good, Because that's what Riot Games intend to do and that's the direction they are aiming for, Here's what Riot Repertoir said:

Randuin's is possibly too weak in this version, though it still is the strongest of the HP/Armor items defensively, and has the lowest price point. As mentioned very briefly, there are some possible change to penetration coming that perhaps will help with this concern. One thing I didn't get into in the main post (but am happy to here) is that the removal of Crit Damage Reduction from Randuin's is intended to head off and/or defuse some power creep in the shop, especially since crit users are generally supposed to be successful at dealing damage to tanks. Some of these changes may result in outlier champions that have special crit interactions, and in that case, we'll need to address those case by case.

especially since crit users are generally supposed to be successful at dealing damage to tanks. ^Intended^

They always have been and are still gonna be successful at killing tanks, They are just making it more clear as the Tank update comes close with the several buffs and nerfs.

B00B00Apr 12, 20171 votes

yeh man, i for one love all these changes they to me make sense and i can for once see a clear direction they want to aim in, which is nice.

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20179 votes

#HOW IT IS NOW

#Lord Dominik's Regards

Stats +50 attack damage

Passive UNIQUE – GIANT SLAYER: Grants up to +15% bonus physical damage against enemy champions with greater maximum health than you (+1.5% damage per 100 health difference, maxing at 1000 health difference).

UNIQUE – LAST WHISPER: +45% bonus armor penetration.

#HOW IT WILL BE

#Lord Dominik's Regards PBE

Stats +50 attack damage

Passive UNIQUE – GIANT SLAYER: Grants up to +20% bonus physical damage against enemy champions with greater maximum health than you (+2% damage per 100 health difference, maxing at 1000 health difference).

UNIQUE – LAST WHISPER: +35% bonus armor penetration.

Let's see how both go against LIVE and PBE Rammus building the same items.

LIVE Rammus LVL 10. - item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 -

HP: 1230 + 500 + 500 + 500 = 2730 AR: 65 + 60 + 50 + 50 = 225

PBE Rammus LVL 10. - item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 -

HP: 1230 + 425 + 425 + 425 = 2505 AR: 65 + 60 + 60 + 60 = 245

OLD Lord Dominik's Regards VS Rammus

LIVE: 225 - 45% = 123 ( 102 reduction ) PBE: 245 - 35% = 159 ( 86 reduction )

#SORRY GUYS, MY MISTAKE, LAST WHISPER ONLY FACTOR IN BONUS ARMOR, NOT BASE ARMOR, LET'S DO THE MATH AGAIN.

225 - 65 = 160 AR 245 - 65 = 180 AR

Lord Dominik's Regards VS Rammus

LIVE: 160 - 45% = 88 ( 72 reduction ) PBE: 180 - 35% = 117 ( 63 reduction )

#16 9 ARMOR IN EXCHANGE FOR 225 HP + THE FACT THAT ADC ARE DOING 5% MORE DAMAGE ON ME... NO, THANK YOU.

SOURCE: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/04/410-pbe-update.html http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html

Gregor GysiApr 11, 20173 votes

You forgot about the masteries (5% bonus armor increase unyielding, 10%+15 bonus armor fearless) and runes (~20 AR is avg for Rammus).

Also, we are talking about the weaker LW item, the stronger one didn't get any compensation. Randuins also got 300 gold cheaper and is still in consideration for buffs (linked that above). Oh and also forget about Gargoyle, no thank you to that aswell? Also, having more armor opposed to more HP means that shields/regeneration is more effective on you (did I mention that Warmogs gets buffed?) - yes, tanks are literally done for. Just delete the class rito. Oh, speaking of Rammus --- what was his passive again?

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20177 votes

You really want to factor in masteries? Since you can gain from 5~10% more damage, free AD, % penetration, lethality and Lifesteal from it.

Plus you're missing the point, the fact that ADC are getting buff for no reason while Tanks are getting nerfed while Tanks are already struggling and ADC are dominating, that's not how balance should work.

#OTHER THING YOU'RE NOT FACTORING IN, IS THE FACT THAT BOTH CASES WOULD HAVE THE SAME AR BONUS FROM MASTERIES AND RUNES, THUS GIVING THE SAME RESULT IN THE END.

#RESULT BEING THE % NERF IS IRRELEVANT COMPARE TO ALL THE BUFFS ADCS ARE GETTING.

RatbertApr 11, 20179 votes

Where does he imply tanks are bad? All he's saying is that ldr is getting buffed mid game.

Can you strawman any harder?

Gregor GysiApr 11, 20171 votes

There you go:

{quoted} Plus you're missing the point, the fact that ADC are getting buff for no reason while Tanks are getting nerfed while Tanks are already struggling and ADC are dominating, that's not how balance should work.

RatbertApr 11, 20172 votes

Well to be fair, that post is newer than yours.

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20175 votes

Struggling doesn't mean bad, it means that they are barely keeping up and need to be helped, not being nerfed and buffing DPS for no reason.

Gregor GysiApr 11, 20171 votes

Complaining about clear buffs to your class makes you look whiny with no reason. Because if these buffs are too bad in your opinion what do you feel entitled to then?

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20175 votes

Because not only me but everyone here wants to play a competitive game on a even ground, and if the developers are putting a single class on a pedestal not only me but every player is entitle to complain about it, or just stop playing.

And I have the feeling Riot prefer their players complaining than leaving

Gregor GysiApr 11, 20171 votes

But the issue is that your perception is flawed and you missinterpreting clear buffs as nerfs demonstrates that.

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20173 votes

My perception isn't flawed, the AR bonus items are getting isn't enought to compensate for the HP nerfs + AD buffs.

It's your bias that is blinding your perception

Gregor GysiApr 11, 20171 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/wELGhkex-why-is-ad-getting-buffed-on-pbe?comment=00000001000000000000

Auz the RipperApr 11, 20171 votes

you didn't multiple it out, compare it to mortal reminder, or include defensive curl

Lord Dominick's effective health live: 100/((160(1-.45))+65+100)=0.395% damage incoming 1.15(0.395)=0.454% damage taken 2730/0.454=6013 effective health PBE: 100/((180(1-.35))+65+100)=0.355% damage incoming
1.20(0.355)=0.425% damage taken 2505/.425=5894 effective health

_Net loss of 119 effective health _

**Mortal Reminder effective health ** live 2730/.395=6907 PBE 2505/.355=7056

Net gain of 144 effective health

Lord Dominick's including Defensive curl live: 100/((280(1-.45))+65+100)=0.313% damage incoming 1.15(0.313)=0.361% damage taken 2730/0.361=7565 effective health PBE: 100/((300(1-.35))+65+100)=0.277% damage incoming
1.20(0.277)=0.333% damage taken 2505/0.33=7515 effective health

_Net loss of 50 effective health _

**Mortal Reminder effective health including defensive curl ** live 2730/.313=8722 PBE 2505/.277=9018

Net gain of 296 effective health

you're only slightly worse off if they have Lord Dominick's and you are significantly better off if you have a teammate that requires them to have Mortal Reminder

TwinkieProApr 11, 20171 votes

It would be best to convert all those numbers into EHP, would give a far clearer picture of the actual gains or losses.

EDIT: Also, it's not 9 armor gained between the patches, that would be just from reduction gained. Overall gained would be 117 - 88 = 29 armor over the previous patch against last whisper.

Doing the math: 88 + 65 = 153AR, or 253% EHP x 2730HP= 6,906EHP 117 + 65 = 185AR, or 285% x 2505HP = 7,139EHP

If thats not very clear, I'll do just the items. LIVE item 3143 500hp, 60 ar = 800EHP item 3742 500, 50 = 750 item 3068 Same as above

Total AR 160, HP 1500, EHP 3800

Factor in item 3035 , armor value is reduced by 45%. 88 armor left for 1500 HP= 2805 EHP from the items.

PBE item 3143 item 3742 item 3068 all 425, 60 = 680 (net nerf), bringing EHP to 3570, around 230 less EHP than previous. Clearly a nerf overall.

against item 3035 However, armor is more effective than LIVE: 35% reduced. 117 armor for 1275 HP = 2766 EHP.

Adding any armor afterwards, such as item 3075 , would be FAR more effective that on LIVE.

Volibear BossApr 11, 201711 votes

Because tanks will have more bonus amor now, the LW nerf isnt really a nerf, its just a reaction to the armor buffs.

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20173 votes

Thank you!

AmazoXApr 12, 20171 votes

So LW isn't nerfed because Armor is getting increase while penetration is reduced?

WHAT?

SukishooApr 11, 201710 votes

Tanks overall hp and armor is getting nerfed.

LOL. Did you actually READ any of the changes?! Armor is going UP on all of the tank items they aren't losing any, only health.

Mira Arya EntheApr 11, 20175 votes

You were downvoted for telling the truth in the face of hysterical circle jerking. I commend you my friend.

GULAG 4 UApr 11, 20171 votes

One does not simply use logic and expect to get upvotes.

Shuyin178Apr 11, 20177 votes

How are tanks losing armor when most armor item that lost HP got more armor added.......

Look at the PBE before you decide to complain with false information please.

Sunfire Cape Health reduced 500 >>> 425 Armor increased 50 >>> 60 Burn damage reduced 25+1/lvl >>> 11+1/lvl Bonus damage to minions and monsters increased 50% >>> 100%

Dead Man's Plate Health reduced 500 >>> 425 Armor increased 50 >>> 60 No longer deals bonus damage on basic attacks unless at max stacks Basic attacks while not at max stacks now reduce stack count by 15 (instead of clearing them) Maximum stack generation per second increased 12.5 >>> 20

Honestly Omen is the only one that got nerfed out of them all if you don't count Sunfire's burn vs champions.

Randuin's Omen Health reduced 500 >>> 425 Crit Damage reduction removed Cost reduced 2900g >>> 2600g Slow duration reduced 4 >>> 2 Slow Percent increased 35% >>> 55% Cold Steel attack speed reduction 15% >>> 20%

Not to mention, all Last Whisper items are getting reduced from 45% to 35% with Lord Dom's getting boosted from up to 15% to up to 20%, which is still going to deal less damage to tanks.

AzteryzApr 11, 20174 votes

dont know why someone downvoted you, you're stating facts

op just cant read that armor is going up

AnhartaminApr 11, 20172 votes

[deleted]

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20176 votes

I would say adc mains that are the worst.. aways getting more and more, and they keep asking for more.

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20173 votes

Sure.. why would they downvote a retarded fact without context like that..

#HOW IT IS NOW

#Lord Dominik's Regards

Stats +50 attack damage

UNIQUE – LAST WHISPER: +45% bonus armor penetration.

#HOW IT WILL BE

#Lord Dominik's Regards PBE

Stats +50 attack damage

UNIQUE – LAST WHISPER: +35% bonus armor penetration.

Let's see how both go against LIVE and PBE Rammus building the same items.

LIVE Rammus LVL 10. - item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 -

HP: 1230 + 500 + 500 + 500 = 2730 AR: 65 + 60 + 50 + 50 = 225

PBE Rammus LVL 10. - item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 -

HP: 1230 + 425 + 425 + 425 = 2505 AR: 65 + 60 + 60 + 60 = 245

OLD Lord Dominik's Regards VS Rammus

LIVE: 225 - 45% = 123 ( 102 reduction ) PBE: 245 - 35% = 159 ( 86 reduction )

#SORRY GUYS, MY MISTAKE, LAST WHISPER ONLY FACTOR IN BONUS ARMOR, NOT BASE ARMOR, LET'S DO THE MATH AGAIN.

225 - 65 = 160 AR 245 - 65 = 180 AR

Lord Dominik's Regards VS Rammus

LIVE: 160 - 45% = 88 ( 72 reduction ) PBE: 180 - 35% = 117 ( 63 reduction )

#16 9 ARMOR IN EXCHANGE FOR 225 HP + THE FACT THAT ADC ARE DOING 5% MORE DAMAGE ON ME... NO, THANK YOU.

SOURCE: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/04/410-pbe-update.html http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html

KaiokoApr 11, 20175 votes

{quoted}

#16 9 ARMOR IN EXCHANGE FOR 225 HP + THE FACT THAT ADC ARE DOING 5% MORE DAMAGE ON ME... NO, THANK YOU.

You do realize that the 5% damage also gets affected by armor right and the armor pen calculation? I admire your effort in putting some math together to show the difference between the two item, but your math is incorrect. Also LW on it's own is not the problem for tanks; it's the combination of LW and BC that is.

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20174 votes

Still free damage that they don't need, and since I just showed you that the % nerf isn't that much ( 9 AR on that example ) and if you know how damage is calculated that amount wouldn't even give 1% reduction, so it's a huge buff to ADC.

Mind you that ADC are dealing 1k damage per auto without crit, 5% of 1k damage is a lot, and if it crits it's anything from 2 to 2.5 times that amount.

#AND THE WORST PART IS, IT'S FREE AND UNECESSARY

Glory ln DeathApr 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Mind you that ADC are dealing 1k damage per auto without crit

What ADC besides Jhin can deal 1000 damage on a basic attack with no crit?!? Most ADCs are lucky to deal 1000 damage with a crit, unless they have massive AA modifiers.

Glory ln DeathApr 12, 20171 votes

You end up with 29 more armor after the Last Whisper nerf, not 9 more. You aren't factoring in the additional 20 armor from items.

WiegrafOfValorApr 12, 20171 votes

You're not understanding, right now on live server if you get item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 and your enemy get a item 3036 you'll lose 72 armor, where on PBE the same scenario you'll lose 63 armor, therefore the huge 10% AR pen nerf, only means less 9 AR penetration with 3 tank items.

Isn't worth losing 225 HP, plus ADCs dealing +5% bonus physical damage on tanks.

Glory ln DeathApr 12, 20171 votes

Yes, but you're not accounting for the 20 armor difference. You either need to compare the reduction with both armor values the same or compare the actual end result of the armor pen. In an actual game, the fact that tanks will have 29 more armor is what matters.

Yeah, Last Whisper is "only" reducing 9 armor less than before, but tanks also have 20 more armor than before - making total of 29 more armor after the changes. That very much warrants an increase in LDR's effectiveness.

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20172 votes

#HOW IT IS NOW

#Lord Dominik's Regards

Stats +50 attack damage

UNIQUE – LAST WHISPER: +45% bonus armor penetration.

#HOW IT WILL BE

#Lord Dominik's Regards PBE

Stats +50 attack damage

UNIQUE – LAST WHISPER: +35% bonus armor penetration.

Let's see how both go against LIVE and PBE Rammus building the same items.

LIVE Rammus LVL 10. - item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 -

HP: 1230 + 500 + 500 + 500 = 2730 AR: 65 + 60 + 50 + 50 = 225

PBE Rammus LVL 10. - item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 -

HP: 1230 + 425 + 425 + 425 = 2505 AR: 65 + 60 + 60 + 60 = 245

OLD Lord Dominik's Regards VS Rammus

LIVE: 225 - 45% = 123 ( 102 reduction ) PBE: 245 - 35% = 159 ( 86 reduction )

#SORRY GUYS, MY MISTAKE, LAST WHISPER ONLY FACTOR IN BONUS ARMOR, NOT BASE ARMOR, LET'S DO THE MATH AGAIN.

225 - 65 = 160 AR 245 - 65 = 180 AR

Lord Dominik's Regards VS Rammus

LIVE: 160 - 45% = 88 ( 72 reduction ) PBE: 180 - 35% = 117 ( 63 reduction )

#16 9 ARMOR IN EXCHANGE FOR 225 HP + THE FACT THAT ADC ARE DOING 5% MORE DAMAGE ON ME... NO, THANK YOU.

SOURCE: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/04/410-pbe-update.html http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html

NotSpecialDudeApr 11, 20173 votes

Isn't LD supposed to be a tank killer though? Using that as an example is a weak argument since in both cases it's doing its job.

Why not compare other items like infinity edge or ghost blade and see how it compares then?

Earl EulrichApr 11, 20176 votes

because they are the firstborn..or sth like that. It´s just like that since about the beginning of lol, and it´s really dragging gameplay down.

class-balance had been sort of fine in S2 and then they deceided to screw it from season to season to season...

DreadlocksApr 11, 20173 votes

Why is riot so focused on making the entire game revolve around ADC. Literally every thing is starting to be balanced around how to work around a ADC.

It's a joke! Every role is being transformed on how they relate to ADC

Funny you should say this, because this is a LOT like Dota 2 in relation to their adc - Hard Carry. People actually form Tri-Lanes just to secure the "adc" farm in that game :)

YoungSirJ0eyApr 11, 20173 votes

Because AP has Void Staff. While I think Adaptive Helm might be a bit stupid, and should only affect one spell per champion at a time, this change really won't affect magic damage dealers that much, so there's no need to fuck with their items.

AD champs, on the other hand, are losing 6% armor reduction on Cleaver and 10% bonus armor pen from LW, which is a lot of armor they can no longer break, so they get tiny compensation buffs to a couple items. Overall, this isn't a net buff for AD champs.

Also, AP champs will get access to new Banshee's, which is gonna be completely broken if it's released in it's current state.

xJLx MCHammerApr 11, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Because AP has Void Staff. While I think Adaptive Helm might be a bit stupid, and should only affect one spell per champion at a time, this change really won't affect magic damage dealers that much, so there's no need to fuck with their items.

AD champs, on the other hand, are losing 6% armor reduction on Cleaver and 10% bonus armor pen from LW, which is a lot of armor they can no longer break, so they get tiny compensation buffs to a couple items. Overall, this isn't a net buff for AD champs.

Also, AP champs will get access to new Banshee's, which is gonna be completely broken if it's released in it's current state.

But tanks have overall less health Also, most of them will be getting the reworked tank to inflate their HP.

All in all, tanks do less damage. Will have less HP and have slightly more armour.

Adc will have more AD early against non tank champions and they will have much more survivability

ZT XperimentorApr 11, 20173 votes

Riot continues to exclusively cater to marksmen mains. When the trend dies the game may be worth playing again.

The Sword SaintApr 11, 20173 votes

Tanks are tanks, not damage threats.

PermabannedGarenApr 12, 20172 votes

Tanks are getting an item that has -15% crit damage taken and a better thornmail passive plus health and armour on one item, and an item that gives them 80 of both resistances and can increase their health times two.

Mages are getting a spell shield on an AP/MR item.

These two playerbases are so delusional. It actually boggles the mind.

Meep ManApr 11, 20171 votes

Health is reduced, armor is up, MR is definitely up (or just anti-magic in general), and it seems like the unique defensive mechanics on items are getting more pronounced, such as Spirit Visage going from 25% to 30%.

GULAG 4 UApr 11, 20171 votes

B U L L S H I T

item 3035 Upgrades now have 35% Arpen instead of 45% item 3071 10% less total arpen