This effect would only be on Thornmail, not on Bramble Vest. Thornmail's reflect damage is pretty trash. While it shouldn't be doing tons of damage and killing marksmen on it's own, it should still hurt somewhat. Reflecting crits would be a nice addition to the item, and it would give players a reason to upgrade from Bramble Vest sooner. EDIT: I see a few people suggesting Cold Steel be removed to go with this Idea. That sounds pretty decent
needHymn97 votes[deleted]
Bob the Toastr38 votesI would pay all my gold to see it talk smack to them in chat.
JediSenpaiNP57 votes"gg ez"
"Says the hardstuck bronzie" -Thornmail
500000000000000031 votes
"noob can't 1v1 me and need jungle help"
"NoOb CAn't 1v1 mE aNd NeEd JunGlE HeLP"
Melledoneus12 votes Yay, I fucking love this meta.
Fioras don't do well in skill metas anyway.
Velzard of Koz10 votesSo you want them to buff Thornmail to apply Ignite, too.
It Hertz When IP4 votesactually, I think that'd be pretty easy to code: copy last chat message, randomly capitalize words, repost in chat.
Need Gold 4 Tent29 votes[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wBhpA2Ef,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-10-19T18:40:41.691+0000)
I would pay all my gold to see it talk smack to them in chat.
crit /all (you): Hey that tickles. crit /all (you): Come on, are you even trying? crit /all (you): Please don't kill yourself. crit /all (you): I know a shop for weapon repairs.
Warlord Rhinark19 votes"Stop hitting yourself"
- Fourth grade bully.
Drugoth4 votesQuick tip: If you put a backslash \ in front of the hyphen, it will stop it from formatting your quote into a bullet.
DuskDaUmbreon6 votesNext ultimate skin is for Thornmail - It now talks in chat.
Variks the Loyal17 votesThere's an issue with that, though. It would make both and 
occupy the same space.
Randuin's is supposed to be the anti-crit item, while Thornmail is an anti-Life Steal item.
nm101013 votesIs there really a reason crit scaling vs tanks/bruisers (the only classes that could feasibly build both) could be slightly nerfed for 5800g worth of items?
Variks the Loyal33 votesWell, it's not just what I mentioned. Thornmail and Randuin's are made not to be used together. They both have the Cold Steel passive, which means you're losing gold efficiency by building both.
A better buff would probably be to remove Cold Steel from Thornmail, so you could build both Thornmail and Randuins and be fully effective, and add more Armor to it for some extra damage reduction.
nm101016 votesOr just increase the damage reflect and lose cold steel, I honestly feel like that passive has lost it's effectiveness over the years anyway.
Bob the Toastr2 votesIs cold steel's attack speed reduction based off of their base AS or their total AS? If it's not based off of their total AS, then i feel like that would be a good buff for it. That way it is stronger against champs with high AS
nm10104 votesIt is total AS, but it only lasts 1 second unless they are actively focusing you to refresh it. In a teamfight you would be lucky if you got them to cancel 1 auto. If you are alone and they are constantly hitting you, you get a standard 3 item adc to attack 2-3 less times over the course of 10 seconds (at which point you would probably be long dead).
In other words you would deny them the same damage that 15-20 armor would deny them (about 400g worth of stats).
My Waifu Vanilla8 votesAnd the fact Cold Steel....is counterproductive on a damage reflect item? It would have been fine I suppose with the old damage reflect that was relative to the damage taken. Now it is relative to the number of times you get hit.....and lowering their attack speed seems VERY counterproductive if you really want damage from Thornmail.
Vellich0r3 votesbut you dont really want damage from thornmail. The point of thornmail isn't to hurt the adc, its to counteract lifesteal and drop their damage to you.
Thefrostyviking1 votesNah it's plenty good, just not against Kog, vayne or twitch who all kinda either ignore the tank, their resitance's or just DPS enough to hurt anyway.
Doesn't help that all 3 of them are "rather" strong at the moment.
nm10104 votesIt's funny that those 3 (well at least Vayne and Twitch) were perfect examples of adcs that cold steel was designed to counter.
Verxint14 votesIf there's this many crit items 
is it really a problem to have 2 anti-crit items?
Variks the Loyal5 votesDepends on what those items do. In this case, yes, because reduces damage taken by 20% from all of those items. Very few items are actually such a strong counter - 17.5% reduced damage taken (When considering Infinity Edge damage boost) from an ADC at all times is a very large benefit.
It's rarely seen nowadays though because of the Enchanter meta, and Thornmail is opted for instead to try and curb that healing. And you can't really build them both.
Verxint7 votesEvery one of those crit items increases the damage of autoattacks, which scale with AD and attack speed, by a percentage. Infinity Edge increases crit damage by 25%. Hurricane effectively increases damage by up to 50% or something like that.
But having more than one anti-crit item is too much?
Variks the Loyal1 votesEveryone of those items has a chance to increase the damage of AA's. It's not a flat boost to damage dealt.
Infinity Edge does increase crit damage. With that in mind, Randuin's still reduces effective damage taken by 14%. Against an enemy with 100% crit, that's 14% reduced damage taken at all times from that target.
With that in mind, if we did need to buff anti-crit itemization, I'd buff the 20% to 25% instead of making another item anti-crit.
Hurricane doesn't increase single target damage at all outside of it's AS and crit, so it's irrelevant.
Verxint5 votesIf you purchase an item with 20% crit chance, 20% of your autos will do 100% more damage. This averages to a 20% increase in damage output.
Variks the Loyal1 votesAnd if the target has Randuins, it averages out to a 0% increase. If the item in question is IE, then it's a 6% increase.
Verxint6 votesThat's not how math works...
if someone does x damage, over 5 attacks they will do 5x damage. If they get a 20% crit item, then 20% of their attacks do 2x damage. 80% of their attacks do x damage. Over 5 attacks, on average, one attack will do 2x damage and four attacks will do x damage, for a total of 6x damage. 6x/5x = 1.2, or a 20% increase in damage.
If a person gets Randuin's, then 20% of those attacks to 2x(0.8) damage, or 1.6x damage (for simplicitys sake I'm just taking the passive from Randuin's). Over 5 attacks, on average, on attack will do 1.6x damage and four attacks will do x damage, for a total of 5.6x damage 5.6x/5x = 1.12, or a 12% increase in damage.
5.6x/6x = 0.93, meaning that Randuin's reduces the damage of someone with 20% crit to 93% of what it originally was, or by 7%.
If we take the same situation but add Infinity Edge's bonus damage (for simplicity's sake I'll stick with 20% crit): The Infinity Edge attacks without Randuin's will do 2.5x damage. Normal attacks still do x damage. Over 5 attacks, one attack will do 2.5x damage and four attacks will do x damage, for a total of 6.5x damage
6.5x/6x = 1.083 - an Infinity Edge's passive is an 8.3% damage increase if you have 20% crit without. 6.5x/5x = 1.3 - Infinity Edge crits with 20% crit chance are a 30% damage increase from no crit whatsoever.
With the Randuins, the crits do 2x damage. Over 5 attacks, one attack will do 2x damage and four attacks will do x damage, for a total of 6x damage.
6x/5x = 1.2 - an Infinity Edge passive with 20% crit chance against a target with a Randuins provides a 20% increase in damage
6x/6.5x = 0.92 - Randuin's passive reduces the damage of someone with 20% crit chance and an IE passive to 92% of what it originally was, or an 8% reduction
PB4UAME3 votesThank you for this.
Ninja tabi and Randuin's are so much less effective than you think, especially since they proc after resists are calculated, so they always negate much less than the % they say they are supposed to, AND stack multiplicatively with each other, and resists and %damage reduction so you get even less out of them.
ZeroAgainst4 votes[{quoted}](name=Variks the Loyal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wBhpA2Ef,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-19T17:47:44.428+0000)
There's an issue with that, though. It would make both
Randuin's is supposed to be the anti-crit item, while Thornmail is an anti-Life Steal item.
anti lifesteal item that only hurts melee champs i had a thorn male and got hit by a caitlyn she killed me then life stealed a 121 each auto off minions with the debuff still on her
theminiom3 votes[{quoted}](name=Variks the Loyal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wBhpA2Ef,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-19T17:47:44.428+0000)
There's an issue with that, though. It would make both
Randuin's is supposed to be the anti-crit item, while Thornmail is an anti-Life Steal item.
Why not Both? More armor for the reflect scaling!
Dark Nephthys8 votesI could agree to that. I'd say double damage though, since triple might be a little bit to much damage. Also for the people mentioning that it'll become an Anti-crit item that overlaps with 's passive. Just remove cold steel from and either increase Armor by like 20 or reduce the cost of the item. Then both items wouldn't overlap and feel like a good purchase to buy both of them and there is enough crit items anyways, should honestly be more counter to it than 1 item.
Jamendxman47 votesI play Tryndamere quite a bit, and I've never had issues killing a 5k hp Cho gath who has thornmail, despite it being an item that is meant to reflect lots of damage.
iLBGAMing6 votesThat would be quite game breaking, pretty much all crit ADC's would be worthless and die to their own damage that they deal. 0 Counterplay, they wouldn't even be able to lifesteal all that damage back, and even the supports couldn't do anything about that. This would make the Tank/Fighter role insanely broken, that would start another tank meta that everyone loves lol
Need Gold 4 Tent16 votesThat would be quite game breaking, pretty much all crit ADC's would be worthless and die to their own damage that they deal. 0 Counterplay, they wouldn't even be able to lifesteal all that damage back, and even the supports couldn't do anything about that. This would make the Tank/Fighter role insanely broken, that would start another tank meta that everyone loves lol
Its old 30% version didn't do that, this current piece of shit version will most definitely not do that.
AninLegions7772 votesExcept it did. Before %HP dmg became a normal thing in league, I remember autoing myself to death on the old thornmail as lucian vs. Alistar. Fun times.
Need Gold 4 Tent4 votesExcept it did. Before %HP dmg became a normal thing in league, I remember autoing myself to death on the old thornmail as lucian vs. Alistar. Fun times.
LW at that time was broken as well, maybe you should've built it?
Ali is a fringe case because of how his ult works. % damage reduction is different from armor in the sense that it is the "armor pen" of defense aka "armor pen reduction". Thornmail reflects damage based on unmitigated damage, and if you were auto-ing an TM ulted Ali, you are going to have a bad time. Put the same item on any other tank who uses armor like everyone else, and you still chew through them.
pro rusher 25 votesNot items fault you dont know what to build, is it?
Thryale5 votesthat's the point. crit adc's are too strong atm, and mages don't really have a place on the team atm either. by making crit adc's less useful and buffing mages at the same time things'll balance out for an actual meta shift.
pro rusher 22 votesThere is a counter for it. Life steal, mr and armor pen, witch you can get in 2 items, and you also get cc break. What else do you even want?
iLBGAMing1 votesRight.. Because an ADC will be able to lifesteal that well against a tank who has who will apply grevious wounds every time they will attack the tank.
Also when you stated that...
Life steal, mr and armor pen, witch you can get in 2 items.
What you stated is literally impossible, since when can you get lifesteal, mr and armor pen in 2 items... Did you mean to say 3 items?
pro rusher 23 votes1.st yes. Actually rammus with his w on and thornmail doesn't do more dmg than you lifesteal with this 2 items. That green sword that gives you 10% lifesteal, 10 mr and 70 ad+ good active. (Somethink like that, but i am not sure) 100 mr gives you around 50% magic dmg reduction. On adc you have around 66mr so this is 40% dmg reduction..
Bdw it is not my fault u don't know what item gives you lifesteal and mr, just build smart. If they have a lot of cc or a tank, you should probably be building this 2 items anyway..
And thornmail does close to no dmg. Maximum 200 in a fight, but usually never even close to that much.
ZT Xperimentor6 votesAgreed, though rather they remove the cold steel passive for this. Randuin's omen already has cold steel & critical reduction, and such a change to thornmail would be a nice alternative.
ModAcademy Kayn2 votesI get Thornmail's damage isn't that good, but it shouldn't be. What's the interaction/counterplay to losing a fight just because you're doing your job correctly? It's the same problem with Sunfires, before the Tank rework.
nGio9 votesThe problem is that for 1k we get 35 armor and grevious wounds, and for 1900 more we get 250 health, 45 armor, cold steel, and a still worthless passive. It's like Hex Drinker into Maw, but worse. Sometimes I'll first item a Bramble, and there is never a reason to upgrade to Thornmail until you have bought absolutely everything else.
When it first released, I said "they'll increase the armor a couple of times and then slap 10% cdr on it eventually, because Bramble is great, and Thornmail is shit". Well, first armor buff applied, and it's still not good.
ModAcademy Kayn2 votesI'd rather it not be good for it's damage. I'd rather it be good for it's Grevious Wounds or Tankiness, and that's where I think buffs should be given to. Of course, the question needs to be asked, what is our definition of "Good" when it comes to this.
nGio9 votesThat's exactly the problem. ADC items are too "good" compared to any other class. If they were to nerf Trist and Twitch tomorrow, Xayah, Cait, Jinx, etc would just pick up the IEs, and take their place, with a support as their slave.
If they were to nerf Cho, Sej, Mao tomorrow, who would take their place? Voli? Mundo? Poppy? Malphite? Naut? Nope, because tank items aren't good enough to carry a class that is primarily dog shit.
We don't necessarily need tank items that passively do damage. We need tank items that keep tanks upright for more than 2 seconds, and something to keep them from being perma cc'd/displaced while an ADC evaporates them.
The problem might be that AD items are a swiss army knife, where there is an item for almost anything. Damage, attack speed, absurd sustain, armor, magic resist, cc break, 'extra life', health, a Zeal build path for every occasion, etc, and there isn't a downside. Tanks get "I need armor" or "I need magic res". Then a bunch of situational actvies/passives with downsides, like Warmog's and Stoneplate.
Rebonack1 votesWhat, like, double the damage if they crit you?
warpenguin55511 votesdouble or triple yeah
Daddy Ants2 votesdouble or triple yeah
Sure but remove the grievous wounds effect as a trade off.