Tell me if this statement is right or wrong. I'm not ranting about any champion or doing any statement, I've always considered this a general truth and I want to know people's opinion about it.
S0kaX47 votes
laughing in the distance
RainXBlade10 votesJuSt Cc HiM lOl.
NorthernRedStar7 votes
The best part is, I can literally imagine that 'YA HA HA HARRRR' in my head.
Bob the Toastr18 votes
laughing even harder
S0kaX18 votes laughing every 20 seconds
Hanple5 votes
Laughing further away
Enderspider6 votes
(vs full ad team)
u wot mate
HalcyonDweller46 votesNobody can tell you definitively if it is right or wrong, because for all of us whatever we tell you will be our opinions.
I personally agree with you that it is bad design if a character's only counterplay is to hard-cc them. But that's only my opinion, and no matter how informed it may be, there are other opinions out there too which may be just as valid.
Shrek Luigi10 votesmy opinion is that there are very few champions who are that binary.....CC may be a convenient way to dumpster x champion but often positioning, which items you buy, proper coordination and timing yadda yadda are equally as important--or more--and tends to be overlooked in value because its not as immediately-gratifying.
a lot of those champions who can 'only be killed in a certain way' are often really bad in certain aspects/don't have much to offer in teamfights or for objective control, as well.
on the flipside, there are certainly very very very OP champions who hypothetically have tons of way to die but have some dumb crutch in their kit that allows them to do their thing beyond the scope of what similar champions might be able to
DearPear20 votesThe title statement is wrong. However I think Yi is frustrating because he can actually avoid your CC with his alpha strike, making him able to counterplay his sole counterplay.
ModKnightsKemplar17 votesI think it's wrong.
If crowd control doesn't counter some champions, then what is it good for? In a design space with this much variety, some champs care more about being cc'd than others. I see nothing wrong with that.
Z3Sleeper9 votesI understand the viewpoint and we always need someone on the other side of an argument for it to work, but I think of CC in general as more of a crutch. CC shouldn’t be the only answer but it should be a definitive answer in some cases.
Basically a counter to Kat should be CC, but she should also have the potential to be outplayed without CC. Which is true right now since you can predict dagger drop locations and dodge the AoE’s.
Yi on the other hand requires hard CC or instantaneous death. He doesn’t leave much room for general counterplay outside CC. Even his meditate takes advantage of a lack of CC. He really is the “enemy has no CC (basically) free win” kind of champ.
ModKnightsKemplar3 votesHmm...
I see your point. Yi is especially problematic because you can't slow him during his ult, and that does track with the post title... I could perhaps allow myself to be swayed on this one.
Hong Kong Annie1 votesBut hard cc counters every champ with the exception of
ModKnightsKemplar10 votesBut not to the same extent. Kata is much harder countered by hard cc than Taric, for instance. You stun me on Taric and I'm like "k. That's mildly inconvenient." You stun me out of ult with Kata and that's much more serious.
Romans VI XXIII2 votesI think your statement is not true.
Stuns/Knock-ups/Displacements Counter EVERY one equally.
Silences/Disarms Counter Specific Types of champions more than the other Silences counters Casters more than Disarms do, and vise versa for Disarming countering AA dependent type champions more than Silences.
And I would Argue that Snares counter mobile champions more than immobile champions, but Slows counter immobile champions more than mobile champions. (Example, snaring LB/Zed counters them harder than snaring Ashe. As it stops them from even casting a portion of their combos, where as Ashe can still cast her entire combo. Like wise slows would counter Ashe more than LB/Zed as they can still just dash into/away from as slows do not reduce the range of dashing.
Also your comparison is not accurate. Yes Stunnign kat IN HER ULT counters her harder than just randomly stunning a Taric. CCing counters harder when TIMED well (Kat in her ult). but if you randomly stun Kat like you Randomly stunned Taric then it counters them Equally.
Bârd9 votesIf a Taric gets locked down, he's tanky enough that he can probably survive it and continue contributing to the teamfight.
If a Katarina gets locked down, she is squishy enough that she'll probably die immediately, rendering her useless for the rest of the fight.
Romans VI XXIII1 votesThat is irrelevant. You can build any one tanky and allow you to survive a wave of CC.
Build taric glass cannon and he would blow up.
Bârd16 votesExcept Taric can build tank without becoming useless.
Romans VI XXIII1 votesYou ever looked at Kats base damage?
AlienPrimate1 votesHer Q + E is 270 damage at max ranks. Taric's E is 285 at max rank and scales with armor.
Romans VI XXIII1 voteslol, and her ults base is 750...... but good try. also kat can cast hers like 2 or 3 times before taric can cast his a second time
AlienPrimate1 votesMost of Taric's damage comes from his passive anyways. His stun has about a 4 second cooldown while using his passive and he would auto attack 8 times in those 4 seconds between stuns doing his base AD plus 93 (+15% bonus armor) damage on hit.
The Fearcrow5 votesWhile yes it is all about timing Taric can have his abilities work while hes CC'd if hes already charging a stun it still goes off, if his ult has been cast it will still go off unless you kill him and whoever he is linked to. Kat on the other had has to make multiple casts repeatedly and her ult is channeled, Kat is more heavily affected by down time from stuns and other such lockdowns. Knockups and displacements need to be treated separately because while a knock up will still stop some people from doing stuff it won't for others. If a fiddlesticks is ulting and you knock him up while the aoe is active big deal hes still doing damage it just buys you a little time to run, but a displace with enough distance will completely ruin his ult. It is all about context but some champs are just more resilient in the face of some or all hard cc. Irelia can channel damage reduction that will continue through hard cc, Fiora can parry, the list goes on and on
Anu3isII2 votesWhile you are right, OP's question is if it is OK to have hard CC as the ONLY form of counterplay for some champions (old Kat, Yi and Tryn are the only examples that come to my mind right now).
It is true that CC affects champions differently. After all, Tanks are supposed to soak both Damage and CC for the Carries. But is it a good design to make champions vulnerable only to hard CC?
For me, it leads to binary situations where you either have the advantage and zone the opponent or you don't have the upper hand and avoid any interaction, most of the times splitpushing and waiting for a vulnerable target to murder.
I personally believe Riot should rework most of these charcters to make them more interactive in the fashion they did with Katarina and the Aatrox rework: make their Damage less reliable while increasing the potential reward for a good combo. It also makes the champion more enjoyable to play in in my opinion.
Mordepool8 votesIf CC is ignored by certain Mobile champions that's Bad design
Meep Man8 votesYes. It's bad design. It forces the balance team to make sure CC counters them VERY HARD. So it's a bad design and makes them very binary.
If it's one of many ways, it's fine.
NekoniClaws7 votesYi and Taric mid.
While it's true in 1v1 you can outplay the Yi, League is a team game, the fact that he will catch up to you, he will outsustain you, he will not be slowed, he doesn't care about your tower, or your flash, or your debuffs leaves little way to deal with him if his weaknesses (getting cc'd> burst / getting counterjungled) are covered.
KZ Engel6 votesthis is probably about yi and there are multiple things you can do about yi
he struggles to fight more than 1 without guinsoo and conq already stacked up, so catching him between waves while he's split pushing is usually best
YuGiHo11 voteswhat about 
? vs a team wit little to no cc she ususily tears them up since she is an aoe assassin
Unvictus2 votesStuff like shields and exhaust can shut her down pretty hard too if your team is lacking in hard cc. Anything that can stop her from getting her resets is great because all she contributes to her team is damage, unlike many other champions who have cc or utility.
There are also a good number of items that can counter her pretty well such as adaptive helm can be a good choice for tanks to build since it can reduce the damage taken from her R as well as all her other abilities, because if she gets a reset she’d be hitting you with her basic abilities more than once. Locket is really good option as well because it can reduce her damage output to your whole team.
BLIGHTBRINGER6 votes###This made me think of...
5050BS1 votesYa CC only stops Illaois Ult damage. Out play counters all of her kit. Dodge E Dodge Q kill tentacles dont fight her with Ult = win
BLIGHTBRINGER2 votesYa CC only stops Illaois Ult damage. Out play counters all of her kit. Dodge E Dodge Q kill tentacles dont fight her with Ult = win
Speaking of illaoi, I felt really bad for this enemy illaoi when she tried to ult after she got in a 1v5. She hoped she would atleast someone with her when she died but then I Exhausted her and she basically wasn't able to kill anyone lol.
DarkTree15 votesi only see this argument used for () and occasionally and which are, as the kids say, Not Fun To Play Against
but yeah ultimately? if making someone completely unable to act for long enough so that you can kill them (usually only like 3 seconds or less in this meta) as their only real counterplay then it's probably bad design.
Risen294 votesPlease, spare us. Whether you like it or not, team composition is a part of Moba strategy. Whether it be Dota 2 or League. The hard counter to Yi and other hypercarries in League has always been hard CC. You're asking for the game to stop being a Moba if you don't want team compositions to mean anything.
Try a team composition of:
And watch:
Daddy Ants3 votesCC?
: I have a 10 second cooldown QSS as a basic ability!!!
If CC is ignored by certain Mobile champions that's Bad design
being able to eat CC'd targets and carry them away, cancelling the CC is bad design.
I saw a Tahm eat someone who was being Malz ulted and just run away.
novac37214 votesCC?
I saw a Tahm eat someone who was being Malz ulted and just run away.
tahm is good design though. Because the CC'd champ was SAVED by tahm, it wasn't part of their kit. And lots could be done. Working as a team isn't bad design.
Cloud2733 votes[{quoted}](name=Hextech OwI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wBAiZs5d,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-20T18:34:57.908+0000)
Tell me if this statement is right or wrong. I'm not ranting about any champion or doing any statement, I've always considered this a general truth and I want to know people's opinion about it.
Yes you are correct. If a champion lacks counterplay (aside from hard cc) they are bad design.
SUCC Ghast3 votesWe talking Master Yi, Late Game Jax, Yasuo in the early game. These 3 are champions that are extremely hard to fight without hard cc'ing them, and even harder when the player has more than 1 game on them lol. You could even rope Vlad into that. The thing with all of these champs is every champ can be countered. Without cc, items do really matter in most cases. However I do have to agree, cause I have a feeling you had Yi in mind, that Yi needs a serious look at, because his only counter is cc realistically, and his ult prevents slows, and a single QSS pretty much makes him a fluid carry in a low cc team comp.
FCJAAAAGOOOO2 votesThis statement is not necessarily right, or wrong.
It's actually VERY GOOD champion design if crowd control - or any other form of counterplay - is the only way to counter a champion, factually speaking. Tryndamere for example can be mass-chain CC'ed to uselessness but has to be close to do anything in the first place, in which case even the softest forms of CC like a minor slow can help turn the tide in his opponents' favor. Old Akali and Vanye West had invisibility unless an opponent placed a pink ward in which case a team could nuke them before they inflicted too much of their snowbally wrath. It gives champions built-in agency and it gives those playing said champions an opportunity for skill expression as they can play around their counters.
Now a champion having COUNTERPLAY to their ONLY counter on the other hand, such as Yi's Alpha Strike dodging CC mentioned here in these comments, or Yasuo's Windwall and infinite dashes, is terrible design. The ball is practically in those champions' courts until their abilities are on cooldown. Those champions are infuriating to play against as they are factually based on uninteractivity, and in mid-lategame duels against champions where no apparent counters are present they win by default anyway by simply being duelists. No one would care if Ziggs had Windwall or if Maokai had Alpha Strike (hey, he kinda does actually).
The JigSAW2 votesThat statement is correct.
Everybody needs to be countered from the get-go and in those matchups its usually skill and experience that determines if the counter wins or loses. There are five champions I consider at this moment to be broken to the point of needing big fixes, although that's subjective too in the end, but I have the stats and data to back up why they need it.
Seer of Mind2 votesDeath is best CC
Verarticus2 votesIf the only thing you can possibly do to play against them is to use a tactic that will work on anyone in almost any situation, then I would consider them poorly designed. The point of CC is to be a blanket disabling option to work on anyone in most scenarios, it's a sort of "true damage" only to controls. If that make any sense...
Anyway, if the champions kit can only be in a state of "they're winning and I can't do anything" or "they're losing and they can't do anything" then I consider that bad champion design.
LightningShado2 votesI think this is true.
SenorBobbers2 votesMeanwhile Fiddlesticks can be countered with ignite, healing reduction, exhaust, crowd control, burst damage, vision, walking out of tether range - and he is totally balanced and picked every game in LCS right lawl
aaaustindestroy12 votesGenerally I think this is a good statement. Not necessarily entirely bad in design, but definitely flawed in an obvious way.
DirigoX2 votesI wholeheartedly agree with that statement
rtbf484192822 votesHere's the absolute truth. The only possible way that exists to counter a tryndamere who has a phantom dancer, is to CC him. There is absolutely no other counter. You can't kite him. You can't outrun him. You can't burst him down. CC is the only way, period.
Tryndamere is a prime example of what bad design is.
