This mana change shoud not apply only to mages.

Hextech OwI·Apr 18, 2018·77 votes·15,106 views

Unpopular opinion, I think this change is actually a good idea.

To me, Mana management is something that is missing since Season 5. Having this change through would force players to have a better management of their ressource, which means eventually a slower game path, and a longer lane phase duration.

But Mages shouldn't be the only one to "benefit" these changes. Marksmen should also be affected by it and even harder since they rely on basic attacks more than spells as their primary source of damage, yet they are still able to poke well with it in lane.

42 Comments

AquariusGineApr 18, 201829 votes

If Riot are gonna make mages manage their resource, they should also tone other classes down. Haven't we been asking for damage to be lowered and snowballing reduced?

GigglesOApr 18, 20184 votes

Yes, Yes we have.

FrostQueensPlaneApr 18, 201828 votes

Riot's live design team is so far up their own ass that in their game, mages will have the smallest mana pool out of all champion classes.

Think about that. Balance aside, at what point do you just pull back a bit and think to yourself, yo maybe we fucked up somewhere along the way.

Big LincolnApr 18, 20185 votes

you also have more mana through items than anyone else

Dark NephthysApr 18, 201831 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVnEQfv1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-04-18T16:34:31.746+0000)

you also have more mana through items than anyone else

Then we should gut ADCs base AD and attack speed. Since their items get more AD/Attack speed than anyone else as well, only fair.

Big LincolnApr 18, 20186 votes

you're saying it like id disagree

RexxieeApr 18, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVnEQfv1,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T16:38:34.825+0000)

Then we should gut ADCs base AD and attack speed. Since their items get more AD/Attack speed than anyone else as well, only fair.

They already have the lowest base ads in the game.

The point is that mages build a 1500 mana item while already having the largest mana pools in the game.

God forbid riot is trying to tune down the brainless waveclear mid lane meta.

Dark NephthysApr 18, 201815 votes

{quoted}

They already have the lowest base ads in the game.

The point is that mages build a 1500 mana item while already having the largest mana pools in the game.

God forbid riot is trying to tune down the brainless waveclear mid lane meta.

Yet ADCs also have insanely strong wave clears as well, on a no-resouce or CD auto attacks. There will still be a crazy amount of wave clear in this game, these nerfs won't change that...what this will do is force the main wave clear on the ADCs and possibly force ADCs to build item 3085 and item 3087 as that still gives massive wave clear, though it was nerfed in wave clear a few patches ago but still strong.

Btw most games that have a "mage" class of some kind always has the highest mana pool even when their items give mana. Why should League be any different when considering that mages do nothing when their mana pool is depleted? Also this is going to force mages into building those items and really hurt itemization. Now if you used to be fine with rushing items like Protobelt, you can't afford to because late game you will lose 300-400 mana and even Tanks and ADCs have more mana than you.

My Waifu VanillaApr 19, 20181 votes

Outside of Jinx and Sivir hardly and ADC can efficiently waveclear. Xayah is borderline and had changes last pbe cycle (that got scrapped) addressing it, but saying ADCs as a whole have strong waveclear is a straight up lie. Draven has waveclear? Kogmaw? Varus (who maxes Q last btw)? Ezreal? Jhin? Kaisa has to stand IN the wave to have a decent waveclear WITH Q evolved meaning she can't stop seiges. MF can't clear waves for shit. It's literally only like 3 ADCs that can actually fill a waveclearing position since everyone else doesn't do enough damage AoE to do it or they would be committing suicide trying to clear the wave against 4 people seiging you.

Also, unless you are like the highest level in the game Statikk Shiv EVEN ON a crit will never kill caster creeps. It doesn't happen. The nerf made sure of it.

LordGeovanniApr 20, 20181 votes

Support's (support tanks then support mages) have the lowest base ad then tanks (it scales up per level ) then assassins then mages then bruisers (scales higher per level than adcs) then Adcs

FurriesAreHotApr 19, 20182 votes

They would feel absolutely awful to lane as. Their items are what need changes.

LordGeovanniApr 20, 20181 votes

Ad and attack speed (although it think it should be gutted on adcs) Effect fighting strength while mana does not except for on Ryze.

CppLApr 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVnEQfv1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-04-18T16:34:31.746+0000)

you also have more mana through items than anyone else

By that logic, they should nerf tanks hp per lvl by half to.Cause you know they have more hp through items than anyone else.

Big LincolnApr 19, 20181 votes

they usually do, so I guess its mage turn lol :)

Dark NephthysApr 19, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVnEQfv1,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-19T15:14:46.620+0000)

they usually do, so I guess its mage turn lol :)

Only Chogath Sion have low health by level 18 because they are health stacking champions, and Shen is a little low because of how strong he was before (I don't exactly rem why they nerfed his base HP) but other tanks are up there as the highest-Middle in health by 18.

FairyfleurApr 19, 20181 votes

Okay, but other classes need more mana/mana regen because they don’t have access to much mana.

rtbf221651412Apr 18, 201810 votes

Shhhh Rito wants Marksmen to be **broken **Attack Damage Carries

FurriesAreHotApr 18, 20188 votes

I’d be down for toning down all mana instead of just mages. No complaints with that from me.

rtbf221651412Apr 18, 20187 votes

Ashe Ezreal

Example of two who use mana or can access mana with ease.

Banbutsu SozoApr 18, 20182 votes

Zed Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo

BattalionApr 19, 20182 votes

That's not fair to ability heavy jungle Marksmen such as Kindred . Do you know how unlikely it is now that I will ever get a mid laner "charitable" enough to "allow me" to have 2nd Blue Buff? I have to spam Q & W so much for first and second clear, even with item 1039 and hogging all the fruit from my top laner isn't going to make me be able to sustain through the 2nd clear. When the ADC nerfs come out later this season, I'll not only get hit by these mid-mage mana changes, but also by ADC item nerfs, and now you want to compound the problem with nerfing my already abysmal mana pool? Screw you dude. Screw you and your communist mana mentality. I want my damn mana.

Violet FieldsApr 19, 20182 votes

Nocturne 273.8 mana pool. Who actually has a reason to spam abilities but can't.

Noor SakataApr 19, 20182 votes

Yes , and make Yasuo Zed Riven Mana champions

Zed geniusApr 18, 20181 votes

Mana management should be important for mana champions, which I am not saying it is not right now, but you have more room for errors than you should. Same way energy users need to manage their energy or they are going to run out of it in the middle of a fight. Though I believe as I said in my recent post that gaining mana for last hitting is much better than getting mana just because you are in the game, and thus I believe doran's changes are in the wrong direction

DuskDaUmbreonApr 18, 201825 votes

Hun, "managing energy" on an energy champion is literally just as simple as "Enter the fight with full energy".

It's not that hard to do.

Zed geniusApr 18, 20182 votes

you're literally clueless about this game lol. "entering with full energy is not what I said is hard. Entering with no mana is not hard either. The thing that is actually hard is the fact that a full rotation makes you go energy on champs with energy, hence why akali can\t stack cdr, she runs out of energy if she spams e, hence why zed is out of energy if he misses his double q, hence why shen taunt costs half his energy bar etc.

FutureCreatorApr 18, 201812 votes

You get an energy regaining condition on all of these champions, though. And energy regen is much, much higher than mana. You really need to fuck up or have a very prolonged fight to go out of energy.

ShablagooApr 18, 20182 votes

Which means there is managing though too, I honestly do not agree with the new mana changes, but you must admit that mages being able to spam their skill shots takes away the real skill. For example Xerath spamming his q over and over again mines you'll hit eventually there is no real management involved.

VenomarApr 18, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVnEQfv1,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T17:16:39.931+0000)

you're literally clueless about this game lol. "entering with full energy is not what I said is hard. Entering with no mana is not hard either. The thing that is actually hard is the fact that a full rotation makes you go energy on champs with energy, hence why akali can\t stack cdr, she runs out of energy if she spams e, hence why zed is out of energy if he misses his double q, hence why shen taunt costs half his energy bar etc.

Speaking of literally clueless, every energy champion has built in energy sustain. If you execute your combo, and get the returns that are in place, you will have more than enough energy for another combo even without the static regen. MOST energy Champs have enough built in sustain to get off upwards of three consecutive combos in a fight if they hit thier combos and get thier returns, this is without any downtime outside of Cooldowns. On some Champs like Zed , there is some skill expression here as it requires hitting enemies with your Shadows. But for literally everyone else, it's as simple as auto attacking.

So...no, especially no with your examples of shen and akali who have the best energy sustain of any of the energy based Champs. If shen hits his taunt>triple auto buff, that's 200-250 energy returned at w rank one if he hits his Q sword pull too, and a double Q akali if executed properly with a Q>wait 4 seconds>Q>R>AA>E>Q lands>AA, will be at full or near full energy after the combo. So... No, no "management" outside of "do your stuff".

Stay in school kids.

Baron of BreadApr 19, 20182 votes

Just want to throw this out there, but your Shen math is jank (I didn't check your other math, but I play Shen so I could tell it was off just by looking).

At level 13+, Shen gets 40 energy back for each hit of Shadow Dash and Twilight Assault. If we assume you hit two people with your Shadow Dash and get all three procs with your Twilight Assault then you get 160 energy back. This means you are 90 energy down. Hitting more than one person with Shadow Dash is great, but not all that frequent so you are probably actually 130 energy down.

Are you likely to run out of energy? Not in a short fight since you have an energy pool of 400 and each Twilight Assault will get you net 20 energy if you get all of the hits off.

Don't forget what you learned in school, kids.

DidactHalApr 18, 20181 votes

He's right, when I play ADC's such as Jhin or Lucian, my mana gets drained too quickly. They need at least a 150-250+ mana buff.

FurriesAreHotApr 19, 20181 votes

Lucian is a spell slinger, and Jhin is kind of a spell slinger, since he uses his Q and W to fill in the auto attack gap. They do NOT need more mana, since their mana gates them from being just better than non spell slingers.

oortoomeebreesuuApr 18, 20181 votes

Really go through the roster and ask yourself, why do some heroes mana costs exist the way they do?

Fiora lvl 1 Q 20 mana, W 50 mana never changes

Wukong lvl 1 Q 40 mana, W goes from 50 to 70 mana.

E mana cost is 5 mana more expensive for Wukong.

And on top of it all? Wukong has LESS BASE AND SCALING MANA.

Let's try another for tanks: Ornn and Nautilus

Ornn Q 55 W 45 E 50

Naut Q 60 W 80 E 50

I would be able to excuse the fact that Naut has higher base mana if not for the fact that Ornn's abilities do about triple the damage of Naut's for no real reason. Am I saying buff Naut's damage? No, I'm saying nerf Ornn's.

My Waifu VanillaApr 19, 20181 votes

Keep nerfing the 46% WR champion. 17 second cd on W and no unstoppable on it clearly wasn't enough right? Ornn is literal trash tier right now (played him since release and got mastery 7 before the massive buffs) since he just gets destroyed in lane by anyone that wants to fight him or he just gets shoved under tower since he can't clear waves until level 7-8 and that is with all 3 abilities. If people STILL get hit by his entire W and the Grasp Auto then yeah they lose the trade, but having over 10+ seconds for the entire laning phase to fight Ornn back means that it doesn't even matter unless you continue to walk away from him after he W+autos you.

oortoomeebreesuuApr 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVnEQfv1,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-04-19T21:11:23.404+0000)

Keep nerfing the 46% WR champion. 17 second cd on W and no unstoppable on it clearly wasn't enough right? Ornn is literal trash tier right now (played him since release and got mastery 7 before the massive buffs) since he just gets destroyed in lane by anyone that wants to fight him or he just gets shoved under tower since he can't clear waves until level 7-8 and that is with all 3 abilities. If people STILL get hit by his entire W and the Grasp Auto then yeah they lose the trade, but having over 10+ seconds for the entire laning phase to fight Ornn back means that it doesn't even matter unless you continue to walk away from him after he W+autos you.

heh, i didn't mean it to translate like that, i was using more the direction of the logic rather than the specific case. They did nerf him, and though I liked most of them I agree about him needing his cc immunity and how it's timing was a matter of skill expression. It cements the concept of what it means to be a tank, something that you can't just brush aside or kite, it keeps on coming at ya. just the problem is all these "tanks" play like mages who just spam wave clear, while all the default defensive items give more than enough mana. not to mention they showed the exact same backwards minded logic with the recent sion change. e+comet is a toxic lane environment, here's a q nerf.

Divine ThighsApr 18, 20181 votes

Riot had the right idea. They just did it on the wrong class first. I mean mages are trash why start with them?

Daddy AntsApr 18, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Dont Groüp,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVnEQfv1,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-04-18T21:53:40.419+0000)

Riot had the right idea. They just did it on the wrong class first. I mean mages are trash why start with them?

"Mages are Trash"

XD ok.

SkorchApr 19, 20181 votes

Honestly I think Mages were Ok in mana. Since you dont really wanna overlap item 3802 items ie item 3285 item 3040 item 3030 all that leaves mages with is item 3027 and item 3100 which are very situational unless you also want an item 3001 . Now i dont know if the meta thing is picking up 2 Lost chapter items but i feel like thats a must now.

As for other classes tbh i feel the gauge of mana at all times, I still run out of mana late game as a tank. Bruisers have practically no mana items with the exception of tank ones. And ADCs auto anyway, but the really mana hungry ones have Essence.

BUT if you think mana should be more gated and/or mages are getting mana cut too hard heres the solution.

Either one of the new lost chapter items needs to lose lost chapter and Haste and just be a mana item. Or and preferably,
We get another mana based AP item/ad mana to a current ap item, maybe which has been suffering a bit. Giving mages actual options in their rush still. But also giving options in mana after their first item

Tanks are pretty ok since item 3065 no longer gives mana they only have 4 options. MAYBE tone the values down a bit on those 4 and add mana back to spirit? so getting 1 mana item doesnt instantly solve issues. Because IMO tank base values are pretty high in itself

Bruisers have no items, but SOME have pretty low costs. So the solution is either

bruisers get mana items with increased mana costs.
SOME bruisers get increased mana costs to go along with greater mana per level, to make their early laning less mana-less. Again this only afects some bruisers as some struggle with mana.

ADCs, Most adcs dont struggle with mana, some are mana hungry but can auto anyway. And the ones that are REALLY mana hungry (like lucian) just build item 3508 . Solution: Essence Reaver is less of a "Mana hungry ADCs only item." So It loses some of its mana strength. BUT they come up with another mana item. So that ADCs like lucian need both in order to be free of mana. Probably an Attack speed one. One that might work for both ADC and Bruisers?

Puppet33rApr 19, 20181 votes

If those nerfs were happening in a vacuum and all of the league champions were mages then sure... This change would be fantastic. But this change is happening after 4 zed buffs in a row. After a bunch of individual mages nerfs to their manacosts and cds. And, most importantly, no other class gets any new weaknesses introduced. Just mages.

Right now, in the current state of the game, mages not running oom just feels like part of the course. Since adcs are killing them in 2 crits. Assassins just straight up outstat them with raw damage/tankiness and just automatically win any 1v1(unless they fuked up somewhere along the way) AND all of them got the waveclear in their new and shiny kits.

LordGeovanniApr 20, 20181 votes

I think that Marksmen need Higher Mana costs No mana compensation Because they didnt lose mana pool when they got Lower costs but mages got those same lower costs without losing mana pool they are just losing it now. And Most importantly item 3508 Reverted Sure they can still have Infinite mana but Its more than just for them its gonna be alot harder since the proc is lower per hit.

SpankyhamsApr 20, 20181 votes

Alot marksmen have alot of mana troubles early in various situations. Xayah Sivir Jinx Jhin Caitlyn Kaisa Ezreal this is until later when their damage comes from autos or thier items make up for the mana costs.

But I am in favor of every role haveing less mana at the start but near the same at the end of the game.

LordGeovanniApr 23, 20181 votes

those champions only have mana troubles in that they spam out spells because there is very little down side to it much as anyone else wants to do but they actually have down sides to think of.