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Dark Harvest vs Electrocute: some math

Disulfiram··20 votes·33,489 views

TL;DR Early game, Dark Harvest is:

  • 25% more damaging than Electrocute on a single proc
  • 44% less damaging over time

Lategame, Dark Harvest needs, to outscale Electrocute, 2+ resets or:

  • 20+ souls on no damage builds
  • 20-34+ souls on AP builds
  • 20-29+ souls on AD builds

Damage they currently deal:

  • Electrocute: 30-180 +0,4 bonus AD +0,25 AP, 25-20 seconds cooldown
  • Dark Harvest: 40-80 +0,25 bonus AD +0,15 AP +5 per soul, 45 seconds cooldown (resets on takedown)

Level 1, with Doran's Blade (8 bonus AD) or Doran's Ring (15 AP) +10 from the offensive path

  • Electrocute: 36-37 damage
  • Dark Harvest: 44-45 damage Dark harvest deals 7-9 more damage, on almost double the cooldown.

Level 18, with 0 AP and 0 bonus AD

  • Electrocute: 180 damage
  • Dark Harvest: 80 damage +5 per soul In order to outscale Electrocute, Dark Harvest needs 20+ souls or to reset 2+ times.

Level 18, with 350 AP and 0 bonus AD

  • Electrocute: 268 damage
  • Dark Harvest: 133 damage +5 per soul In order to outscale Electrocute, Dark Harvest needs 27+ souls or to reset 2+ times.

Level 18, with 700 AP and 0 bonus AD

  • Electrocute: 355 damage
  • Dark Harvest: 185 damage +5 per soul In order to outscale Electrocute, Dark Harvest needs 34+ souls or to reset 2+ times.

Level 18, with 0 AP and 150 bonus AD

  • Electrocute: 240 damage
  • Dark Harvest: 118 damage +5 per soul In order to outscale Electrocute, Dark Harvest needs 24+ souls or to reset 2+ times.

Level 18, with 0 AP and 300 bonus AD

  • Electrocute: 300 damage
  • Dark Harvest: 155 damage +5 per soul In order to outscale Electrocute, Dark Harvest needs 29+ souls or to reset 2+ times.

26 Comments

Akumu28 votes

Honestly I dont think its the damage that really annoys people about Dark Harvest, its the fact that its basically an 'execute'. It can proc on a single instance of damage causing lethal damage in situations where you could not get the 3 consecutive hits to trigger Electrocute.

For this season it feels less fair. TBH i think its damage needs to be reduced a little bit further.

Disulfiram3 votes

{quoted}

It can proc on a single instance of damage

Incorrect: a single instance of damage wouldn't proc it unless you were already below 50% HP, which means you already were hit multiple times or even full comboed upon beforehand.

For comparison, Fiddlesticks' Q+W procs Electrocute even on full HP targets.

Akumu19 votes

Uhh no, its actually correct. Notice how i explicitly stated it 'CAN' proc on a single instance of damage, not that it 'does' proc on all instances of damage?

Im fully aware that it has a 50% threshold. It still procs on a single instance of damage if the target is at that threshold. Therefore the quoted statement is absolutely true.

The point is someone can be 20% get hit once and escape against someone using Electrocute. The same is not true of Dark Harvest. Therefore it feels less fair to play against regardless of generally dealing less damage.

Disulfiram4 votes

{quoted}

It still procs on a single instance of damage if the target is at that threshold.

The point is that no target will spontaneously get to that threshold, ever. To say that "it procs on a single instance of damage" is to ignore everything that happened immediately before that.

Nausicäa 13 votes

Except its a team game? There are 4 other people on your team damaging people? There are also turrets and objectives that damage people? You also dont always start attacking someone from 100% hp? You're talking about it in isolation as if you're never going to attack someone who is already below 50% when it literally occurs multiple times in every single game.

If you gank a lane with Electrocute and get a single hit off on a sub 50% target you're dealing 0 damage with Electrocute. If you gank a lane with Dark Harvest and get a single hit off on a sub 50% target you're dealing damage and may even kill them with that extra damage.

This game isnt a series of 1v1s with everyone starting at full hp. So yes, its absolutely relevant that it can proc on a single instance of damage considering the multitude of situations where you get a single hit on a low health target before they escape but cannot get 3. In these instances DH could very well kill them but Electrocute would not.

You're demonstrating a pretty naive understanding of the game.

Akumu1 votes

That statement is not ignoring anything, rather its simply pointing out the FACT that LoL is a team game and you do not always start out fights attacking 100% HP targets. Furthermore you're not always able to get off 3 consecutive hits on a target to proc Electrocute.

If anything you're the one 'ignoring everything that happened immediately before that' by failing to acknowledge that you're not the only one in the game dealing damage and you OFTEN begin attacking someone who is not full HP.

If im 40% and get hit by 3 spells and Electrocute to kill me that feels relatively fair because the person was in range and fighting for an extended period of time.

If im 25%, escape and get hit by a single long range instance of damage that procs DH bonus damage to kill me, well that doesnt feel very fair at all.

flibitydoo1 votes

I not only get to that threshold playing soraka, but I often find myself at even lower values than that.

Mundo also loses 25% of his current health just to ult.

Also Dark Harvest itself has no gameplay tied to it. Remember the executioner mastery? The big one at the top of the offensive tree? Deal up to 3% extra damage to targets below 50%? This is that rune now, and it's way more burst oriented. And in neither case does anyone play around it.

namori1 votes

{quoted}

The point is that no target will spontaneously get to that threshold, ever. To say that "it procs on a single instance of damage" is to ignore everything that happened immediately before that.

Found this thread from Google so late response, but come on. You've never tried to roam up to, say, top lane only to see your top laner die while enemy has a bar of HP left and you're only in range to land one attack before they escape with their abilities? It's a fairly common scenario.

JakeRyan341 votes

Logged in to down vote this

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I dont think its the damage that really annoys people about Dark Harvest, its the fact that its basically an 'execute'. It can proc on a single instance of damage causing lethal damage in situations where you could not get the 3 consecutive hits to trigger Electrocute.

For this season it feels less fair. TBH i think its damage needs to be reduced a little bit further.

Yeah its fun for a few games then you realize HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN USE IT.

saltran6 votes

Why did they even change DH

BaldBritney1 votes

{quoted}

Why did they even change DH

bored, probably

imfoolish1 votes

{quoted}

Why did they even change DH

Because riot xp nerf the jungle and electrocute because junglers were having too much of an impact in the game so riot nerf jungle xp so then junglers took dark harvest and stayed in the jungle. Riot didn't like this and said junglers arnt having an impact on the game so they nerfed jungle xp again and rework dark harvest so junglers are entice to gank more but new dark harvest works for everyone and sucks for junglers.

Esck6 votes

The Dark Harvest change, to me, is game breaking. I only play ARAMs and even as a tank champion, if you drop below 50%, you will be proc'ed by 5 different champions and you're dead instantly. Any champ is an "assassin" now and will execute you regardless of its kit. It's plain stupid to be honest.

Dynikus2 votes

Considering the overall speed of games right now, there's not really much reason to ever go electrocute over it at the moment. You'd be building for a late game that will (usually) never come.

Emerald Fang2 votes

So it's not even doing what it's supposed to lol

Dorme Ornimus2 votes

Also the problem is not the dmg is the reset.

Rexxiee2 votes

DH is still broken because of the resets.

Like if your whole team takes it you can proc 5 dark harvests on a single champ, it will obiously explode, then reset the CD of ALL of them and repeat that again until whole team is wiped.

Rune is fundamentally broken, needs to be removed from the game.

Dorme Ornimus2 votes

Math checks out, problem is, dark harvest 20 procs are easier to get than electrocute 20 procs, the overall dmg of dark harvest is bigger, we need to run an experiment, use the same champ 10 games 5 dark harvest 5 electrocute, get the overall flat numbers and feeling, you can try zed... You'll see how different it feels, the math behind is more complicated than simple a+b=x you'll have to use differential equations to properly model the game mathematically and we lack a lot of data because it's hard to measure...

Cayjan1 votes

It really is not higher in overall...

Vlada Cut1 votes

Yes but electrocute resets twice faster so by the time Dark Harvest is out of CD and ready to use Electrocute users will proc Electrocute twice in a row. So Dark harvest wins in the current burst applied, but total of urst throughout the 50 seconds Electrocute users would kill two people with it already.

Thefrostyviking9 votes

Not true though.

Dark harvest resets on takedowns, so in a teamfight you can proc it 5 times in a row with no stops if lucky.

underscores2221 votes

It's 8 damage per soul (on SR) and half on Arams, so you actually need a couple fewer souls to break even with electrocute

FelixFurry6 votes

No, It's 5 per stack on SR. They hot fixed the damage the day the new patch came out because it was too high per stack. They just haven't edited the tooltip yet.

underscores2221 votes

Oh. Missed that.

Masorex1 votes

I appreciate the math, but you're making it seem worse than it is. You are essentially saying that all because you need X amount of stacks that it's bad.

I take Dark Harvest on Twitch and 24-34 stacks is reealllyyy easy.... I usually have 12-17 by lvl 8 or end of lane phase. Usually in the high twenties or mid thirties by lvl 15-18. Getting those stacks isn't hard AT ALL.

Also if you get a reset, which is expected, it becomes immediately better than electrocute. Think about it, you're getting a stronger electrocute multiple times in a row. AND it does more damage early game.

Also, with Twitch specifically, it's more controllable. Electrocute procs off his W all the time and wastes it. Dark Harvest procs on my E almost every time I combo and expunge, which is what I want. I want to power my E and have it proc when I E specifically. This is way more controllable and user friendly for champs like Twitch,

ALSO, if I get someone low health, I can still proc it later... Making even MORE user friendly especially for a lot of adcs like vayne, or twitch, sivir, etc

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