If J4 Is Nerf'd Before Lee Sin

U4fyn2vZzW·Feb 7, 2015·101 votes·6,536 views

That's the conformation that Riot only cares about the affairs of LCS players and what they want and not a damn about what the community wants, and its more reason for me to give up on this joke of a game and go off to Smite.

Nevermind the fact that J4 is only starting to get popular because the jungle has been made into Halo 2 Legendary Difficulty, but he actually has forms of counterplay (dodging the E - Q, blinking/dashing out of his R) and **hasn't been dominating the jungle for several seasons. **

: You're getting quite popular buddy, I think its time to call my "associates".

: My body is ready, just make it quick .

98 Comments

BakedLotionFeb 7, 201544 votes

J4 has less damage than Lee. #BetterNerfJ4

KeyoshiFeb 8, 20153 votes

Im not defending lee, i like watching good players play him i hate being the one against a good lee, but jarvan doesn't fall off like lee does. Also don't sit here and tell me lee doesn't fall off because he does. He always has and thats probably a good reason why he's so strong early game. Just like shaco used to be.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 8, 201516 votes

He doesn't fall off. He still assassinates squishy targets and gains a new teamfighting ability dubbed "InSec", rendering the afflicted target unable to participate in the teamfight.

So while yes, his damage falls off, his teamfight utility makes up for it.

TrumpetFeb 8, 20158 votes

since when is 340 + (1.8 bonus ad) + 8% of target's missing hp falling off? (Q) since when is 600 + (2.0 bonus ad) falling off? (R)

Between those two abilities he has higher base and ratios than most other ad junglers, and yet somehow with even more utility and being manaless he "falls off."

Saying that lee sin falls off is like saying that the ocean is lava. You can say it until you truly believe it, but it is just BS.

U4fyn2vZzWFeb 8, 20156 votes

They say he falls of because he doesn't rape people as hard as he did early, but he still rapes them so it doesn't matter.

Lee Sin DOES NOT fall of lategame, with just a hydra he can duel any squishy in this game and add a last whisper and the fact that he will occasionally get the shield and spell-vamp and lifesteal from his E plus the magic damage from his W and percentage health damage from his Q he can out sustain and overall destroy and tank in this game.

Troy242621Feb 7, 201522 votes

I'd rather deal with J4,...At least he has holes in his kit that can be manipulated by his enemies. Actual, legitimate counterplay that isn't limited to counterpicks. Also, if I or my allies see J4, we know which type of champions to pick. Compare this to Lee. What do we junglers think when Lee is picked?

"Well, they picked Lee Sin, the king of generalists again. Time to pick another generalist that also does everything a jungler could want and try to do the same exact thing,.." and then we lock something like Vi. That, or we lock in a specialist that actually has weaknesses, then still get outclassed by a generalist.

thinking manFeb 7, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I'd rather deal with J4,...At least he has holes in his kit that can be manipulated by his enemies. Actual, legitimate counterplay that isn't limited to counterpicks. Also, if I or my allies see J4, we know which type of champions to pick. Compare this to Lee. What do we junglers think when Lee is picked?

"Well, they picked Lee Sin, the king of generalists again. Time to pick another generalist that also does everything a jungler could want and try to do the same exact thing,.." and then we lock something like Vi. That, or we lock in a specialist that actually has weaknesses, then still get outclassed by a generalist.

Lee has more counterplay than Jarvan since you can't alwqys flash out of Jarvan's ult.

Troy242621Feb 7, 201528 votes

"Lee has more counterplay than Jarvan since you can't alwqys flash out of Jarvan's ult."

I had a giggle. In seriousness, so many champions have mobility now, picking an immobile champion when they enemy has J4 is your own fault. With Lee Sin, your pick is virtually irrelevant. My point is, if you see someone like Fiddlesticks picked, you think "Oh, the enemy has Fiddle. I should make sure someone on my team has hard CC to disable his channels," but with Lee Sin? "Oh, they picked Lee. Hope our jungler also picks a generalist who specializes at everything the Jungle role could want to do the same exact thing as him," and then someone, Hell, like Vi gets picked.

thinking manFeb 7, 20155 votes

{quoted}

"Lee has more counterplay than Jarvan since you can't alwqys flash out of Jarvan's ult."

I had a giggle. In seriousness, so many champions have mobility now, picking an immobile champion when they enemy has J4 is your own fault. With Lee Sin, your pick is virtually irrelevant. My point is, if you see someone like Fiddlesticks picked, you think "Oh, the enemy has Fiddle. I should make sure someone on my team has hard CC to disable his channels," but with Lee Sin? "Oh, they picked Lee. Hope our jungler also picks a generalist who specializes at everything the Jungle role could want to do the same exact thing as him," and then someone, Hell, like Vi gets picked.

Jarvan's also a generalist jungler and you admitted in your own post that he forces you to pick a mobile. Lee Sin has never defined a meta to the point where you need to take flash and must be able to go through his wall.

U4fyn2vZzWFeb 7, 201524 votes

Except any dash or blink can go through Jarvan's ultimate, and even if you don't have that Jarvan's ultimate has the capability to backfire if he accidently traps his team or someone fragile of his team inside it.

Dude this isn't even controversial, Lee Sin is broken and has been broken for several seasons straight.

TryplexIsThaBextFeb 7, 20153 votes

pretty sure lee's been nerfed more than jarvan has in the history of this game, either way were splitting hairs here, ask any good jungler what champions you might wanna use in the jungle, like give me a list of 6, both of them are gunna be on it yo

U4fyn2vZzWFeb 7, 201526 votes

You mean those love taps? Like reducing his attack speed on his passive by 10% but increaseing the energy gained to compensate? XD.

Pinker 10Feb 8, 20153 votes

But but but Lee does have counterplay

If Lee fucks up hard.... You counterplayed him

VDc0zCqe0wFeb 8, 20153 votes

{quoted}

"Lee has more counterplay than Jarvan since you can't alwqys flash out of Jarvan's ult."

I had a giggle. In seriousness, so many champions have mobility now, picking an immobile champion when they enemy has J4 is your own fault. With Lee Sin, your pick is virtually irrelevant. My point is, if you see someone like Fiddlesticks picked, you think "Oh, the enemy has Fiddle. I should make sure someone on my team has hard CC to disable his channels," but with Lee Sin? "Oh, they picked Lee. Hope our jungler also picks a generalist who specializes at everything the Jungle role could want to do the same exact thing as him," and then someone, Hell, like Vi gets picked.

so J4 invalidates half of the champ roster just because he's locked in

sounds balanced

LoL doesn't want to mess with hard counters?

perfect, rework J4 ult or nerf him then

VI is another braindead champ that presses R and you can't do asbolutely nothing before 25 minutes (the time you'll have a QSS)

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 9, 20154 votes

Well this proves you know nothing. You can't QSS a knockup derp.

VDc0zCqe0wFeb 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vztUQEbE,comment-id=00010000000000020000,timestamp=2015-02-09T00:29:46.989+0000)

Well this proves you know nothing. You can't QSS a knockup derp.

then it's even more retarded, i thought you could

skill that hard counters anything without mobility, on target, with a crazy range, with crazy damage, no way to counter it without having Morg

brainless champ, "LoL doesn't have hard counters" my ass

SinlaireFeb 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

then it's even more retarded, i thought you could

skill that hard counters anything without mobility, on target, with a crazy range, with crazy damage, no way to counter it without having Morg

brainless champ, "LoL doesn't have hard counters" my ass

Banshee's passive completely negates her damage and knockup if it's up when she ults you. She presses R, pops your bubble, does no CC or damage, and is forced to blow her only escape, Q, on providing her second knockup, but by then she's already solo diving your team likely, lost a major cc and damage source, and now has no way out.

all because banshees said "Nope" and you didn't even have to do anything other than stand there and shake your ADC at her.

Learn 2 SwimFeb 7, 201514 votes

OH! 15 junglers nerfed this season and Lee isnt one of em?

If you told me last season that riot was going to do this I would say even riot doesn't have the balls to show such blind favoritism.

exiledFromBadmenFeb 8, 20156 votes

If Lissandra will be nerfed, the reason why they don't nerf LeeSin isn't blind favoritism.

DrinkMoreWhiskeyFeb 9, 20151 votes

Oh they definite have... Blind favoritism

libraryseraph Feb 9, 20151 votes

puts on sunglasses YEEEAAAHHHHH

TheBostonTapFeb 7, 201510 votes

"J4 is only starting to get popular....." "only starting to get popular...." "starting to get popular...."

Jarvan's been a viable pick pretty much since season 1 mate.

TheKingDodoFeb 7, 20157 votes

Halo 2 legendary difficulty is easy. the only part that was slightly hard was flood mission because I was a 10 y/o kid and I was scared as fuck.

gubigubiFeb 7, 20157 votes

I ban J4 so the enemy doesn't get him. I ban lee sin so my team doesn't get him.

J4 is stronger in solo Q and pro play on every single aspect of the game.

DivewingFeb 8, 20157 votes

I seem to recall some bullcrap when Elise was nerfed about "blah blah oppressive early, blah blah too strong, blah blah no counterplay", and followed by something along the lines of: "Similar to LEE SIN and KHA ZIX", 40% crappy win rate Elise (still crappy win rate after getting BUFFED), but at least kha zix was nerfed appropriately and Lee Sin was...........oh right, there'd be a riot if he was nerfed.

OrdersFeb 7, 20155 votes

If they nerf J4 they need to nerf Lee Sin as well.

It would make absolutely no sense to nerf only one of the popular junglers but not the other one. They already nerfed Rek'Sai a few times so I can already smell the nerfs for J4 but Lee Sin needs the nerfs as well.

TotalJerkFeb 7, 20155 votes

This has to be bait...

Jarvan IV is just as problematic as Lee Sin for literally all of the same reasons. Jarvan has basically been the guy people pick when Lee Sin is already picked/banned for years.

Riv x KobeFeb 8, 201510 votes

{quoted}

This has to be bait...

Jarvan IV is just as problematic as Lee Sin for literally all of the same reasons. Jarvan has basically been the guy people pick when Lee Sin is already picked/banned for years.

No. No he has not.

I'm getting tired of people like you, who state something as if its fact about a currently strong character because you have the memory of a goldfish, or an erratic form of dementia. J4 was NOT the go to pick against, or to replace, Lee Sin last Season. It was Vi. And before that? It was Elise. There was also some Kha'Zix love at a few points. I wasn't around much during the last month of the season, but when I was I rarely saw J4.

This is like when people last year were going on about Renekton being used all the time in Season 3, when every one knows he was a joke. Everyone would joke about how bad he was and would giggle at the sad state he was in (especially with that passive). But it doesn't matter, he became incredibly popular and annoying so everyone made up stories about his over use in the season before.

HandheldBrandonFeb 8, 20154 votes

Renekton was no fucking joke.

He was THE premiere top lane because you couldn't remove him from lane and he would stomp all over you if you tried. There was almost no champ that could put up with Renekton abuse outside of highly abusive top laners like Yorick and even then those champs still struggled because Renektons combination of Harass and sustain and tankiness was more than most could handle. There is a reason they neutered the shit out of Renekton top and its because there was literally no one who could compare to him.

Riv x KobeFeb 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Renekton was no fucking joke.

He was THE premiere top lane because you couldn't remove him from lane and he would stomp all over you if you tried. There was almost no champ that could put up with Renekton abuse outside of highly abusive top laners like Yorick and even then those champs still struggled because Renektons combination of Harass and sustain and tankiness was more than most could handle. There is a reason they neutered the shit out of Renekton top and its because there was literally no one who could compare to him.

Mmm. I remember season 3 differently. I mean, the forums were full of people asking for renekton buffs back then. Unless I'm mistaken and thinking of Season 2. Hmm. But I never said Renekton has always been a joke, just at the time stated. But it doesn't really matter, everyone here is going to argue that Renekton was always strong before his recent-ish nerfs. Which is false, but whatever.

AlbireoFeb 7, 20155 votes

More than a nerf, i just want his ult don't work that well with Gnar. Tired of watching every pro game of Gnarvan or the other team almost forced to pick one of the another to not let them been toguether.

balbraakselFeb 7, 20154 votes

Mentioning flash as counterplay to something?

Ok.

U4fyn2vZzWFeb 7, 201513 votes

Ok let me reword it.

Any blink or dash in general.

OperationDEEZ1Feb 7, 201510 votes

Which almost every champion in the game has.

exiledFromBadmenFeb 8, 20156 votes

Which LeeSin has 2 of them.

Sightless66Feb 7, 20154 votes

hasn't been dominating the jungle for several seasons.

Are we thinking of the same Jarvan? Because he was a nightmare in season 4, strong in season 3, and while he wasn't a major force in season 2, he was a top-tier pick in season 1. This isn't some oppressed Urgot-tier champion. Jarvan has been a huge jungle presence for a long time.

Hard PenetratorFeb 7, 201512 votes

You are a bit wrong here. He had his ups and downs and you can't forget he has been nerfed every time he went out of control. He was most of the time 2tier jungler you had tons of worse nightmares to play against.

s2 Maokai, and Alistar that dived you lvl 2 under turret and thanks to HoG and Philo could actually skip farm and camp all day?. Then we had Mundo and Shyv that farmed jungle with a speed of Jet and by ~25 mins in the game they were pretty much on pair with solos, Eve in s2 and s3 was pure bullshit first killing you on stun and after remake diving you all day just to get 400hp after kill.

Not enough?

We had Rengar that 1shot everything or Kha that was so good in the Jungle he actually went mid for half a year, came back after ult change and proceed to stomp even Great LEE. We also had 1 year of Elise that made every jungler miserable.

He was never on top for long periods of time.

AetherKingdomFeb 8, 20154 votes

Acting like J4 isn't way better than Lee Sin. Rofl.

U4fyn2vZzWFeb 8, 20155 votes

Well J4 has a little thing called mana :(

J4 doesn't have an execute

J4 has counterplay in his kit that can be manipulated by his enemies.

J4 doesn't get free lifesteal and spellvamp.

J4 doesn't have magic damage scaling off 100% of his bonus AD in the form of an aoe.

J4 doesn't have a knockback that can send you flying halfway across planet Earth.

J4 doesn't have 480% Bonus AD + 8% Of Target's Missing Health in total scaling ,only surprassed by Panehton in Wukong both of which require that YOU the player remain in an AoE.

AetherKingdomFeb 8, 20155 votes

Lee doesn't have free armor. Lee doesn't have a 10% Current Health damage on auto attacks, which is arguably better than Lee's execute. Lee doesn't get tankier for being near enemy champions. Lee doesn't have non ultimate hard CC. Lee can't create terrain that locks you long enough to watch the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy. Lee doesn't give his entire team attack speed. Lee doesn't have armor shred.

ZelnorackFeb 8, 20155 votes

Jarvan doesn't get free Lifesteal and Spellvamp.

Jarvan's 10% current life damage has a 6 second CD at level 13. He might get a single proc off in one fight. It also has a cap on damage.

Jarvan gets a shield that has no scaling minus enemies being within 300 range. Usually, that's 2 or 3.

Jarvan's knockup: width: 180. The way I think that works is that it's actually 90 units to each side from the CENTER of his hitbox.

Jarvan does not have an 1100 range gapcloser. If you want to factor in all mobility.. Lee: 1800. J: 1410.

You can literally walk through Jarvans terrain sometimes. That's still a bug and it still exists.

Lee gives his team a 4v5 advantage while Jarvan usually dies if he runs off to the enemies backline.

Let us not forget that Jarvan has map specific nerfs in that his Armour shred is worse and his passive takes longer to 'charge' up while lee has no map specific changes.

The most important thing: LEE HAS NO COSTS. 50/30 50/30 50/30 0. That's a ton of energy considering he gains back 10 a second and also regenerates 30 everytime he uses 2 AAs after a single ability, so his costs are effectivly 20/0 20/0 20/0 -30. He spends a solid 30 energy on his entire kit not including natural energy regen.

Jarvan's ult CD at level 16: 90 seconds. Lee sins ult cooldown at level 6: 90 seconds, at 16: 60. Both usually build some CDR, so might as well go with 40%. 90 becomes 54 while 60 becomes 36.

Lee sins cooldowns are pretty much lower across the board until late game. Then Jarvan gets a solid 1 second faster Q and 2 seconds faster on his W.

Jarvan has higher base magic damage on his E, but guess what? Lee's E scales with AD! 100% of his bonus AD to be exact.

Lee's ult also sends the poor target 1200 units away. A pretty massive distance. It also deal 200/400/600 +200% Bonus AD.

Jarvan's ult locks you into a cage match that, guess what? You just got out of because there is SO MUCH MOBILITY IN THIS GAME IT'S DISGUSTING! It also does 200/325/450 +150% bonus AD

I've compared almost everything minus base stats.

O Fallen ScholarFeb 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well J4 has a little thing called mana :(

J4 doesn't have an execute

J4 has counterplay in his kit that can be manipulated by his enemies.

J4 doesn't get free lifesteal and spellvamp.

J4 doesn't have magic damage scaling off 100% of his bonus AD in the form of an aoe.

J4 doesn't have a knockback that can send you flying halfway across planet Earth.

J4 doesn't have 480% Bonus AD + 8% Of Target's Missing Health in total scaling ,only surprassed by Panehton in Wukong both of which require that YOU the player remain in an AoE.

Then explain why do I face enemy J4 in my games who constantly do better than enemy Lee Sin's?

I think the answer is skillcap.

Bears Dont CareFeb 8, 20154 votes

I find it hilarious people believe Jarvin IV is better than Lee Sin. Mmkay.

Lee has..better burst damage. More utility. Better engage/disengage capability. Runs on energy. Built in sustain so he can farm longer, and he farms faster than jarvan.

Like...wtf are you people thinking when you suggest Champs like Rek'sai and Jarvan are better?

SinlaireFeb 8, 20153 votes

lol. almost half the comments in this discussion are 0 or negative. lots of nerd rage and fanboys in this particular debate over who does or doesn't have the biggest e-penis it seems.

can anyone tell me at exactly what point we can has a constructive discussion over the current status of J4 and Lee and not an argument over who was viable when over the years and how nerfs have effected champions and the meta? because i honestly could care less who was viable 2-3 years ago. new jungle, new champs, new stats, new items. practically a whole new game at this point.

second question. if we nerf Lee, J4, and Vi, who are we left with that is truly viable in the current jungle? this nerf this guy and nerf that guy is getting mind boggling in this thread. there are dozens of threads talking about riot only ever nerfing, and here we are TALKING ABOUT THE ONLY JUNGLERS THAT EVER GET PICKED BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO GOOD, and instead of having a discussion on how to bring up the rest of the champions to improve diversity, we want to nerf all that is good and holy into the ground until we're left the current garbage we have where everyone does nothing but complain about nobody being any good in the jungle because new jg is too hard.

so really. anybody? im game if you are. i'd like to bring my Sejuani, Diana, Shyvana, and Fiddlesticks back out of storage someday when they're actually worth something instead of watching everyone raising their pitchforks to nerf down the last few good junglers.

thundersho55Feb 8, 20155 votes

The problem is the jungle needs to be balanced to hurt Lee Sin and Jarvan, which means it is too powerful for everyone else. If they are nerfed to the ground, the jungle can be balanced for everyyone else. Then, slowly buff those two until they are on level with other meta junglers. Or just rework Lee to make him actually fall off

TotalJerkFeb 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

the jungle needs to be balanced to hurt Lee Sin and Jarvan,

That's exactly what they tried to do with the new jungle, and they succeeded at the cost of hitting everyone else harder.

Troy242621Feb 8, 20151 votes

I would agree if it weren't for the fact that their kit design is abysmal. They NEED something removed. They NEED a weakness. You mentioned a few junglers.

Shyvana gets kited, Diana has no escape and isn't particularly good at diving or assassinating anyhow, Fiddlesticks gets bulldozed by CC, etc. but Lee Sin/Vi? No weakness to abuse.

POINT BEING, all of those junglers have a weakness that you can actively and consciously manipulate. The only thing you can do to Lee Sin is pick an similarly overpowered and poorly designed "Does it all," generalist.

Bears Dont CareFeb 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I would agree if it weren't for the fact that their kit design is abysmal. They NEED something removed. They NEED a weakness. You mentioned a few junglers.

Shyvana gets kited, Diana has no escape and isn't particularly good at diving or assassinating anyhow, Fiddlesticks gets bulldozed by CC, etc. but Lee Sin/Vi? No weakness to abuse.

POINT BEING, all of those junglers have a weakness that you can actively and consciously manipulate. The only thing you can do to Lee Sin is pick an similarly overpowered and poorly designed "Does it all," generalist.

Um... vi cant escape once she goes inshe has no sustain. Her ult can be zhonya'd and cc'ed during the dunk portion

SuperdumFeb 7, 20151 votes

Lee sin has been nerfed like 2 or 3 times last season, and Jarvin is better than lee sin in the meta right now, dont be surprised if Jarvin gets nerfed before lee this season.

DiostukosFeb 7, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Lee sin has been nerfed like 2 or 3 times last season, and Jarvin is better than lee sin in the meta right now, dont be surprised if Jarvin gets nerfed before lee this season.

Lee Sin has never been nerfed in a meaningful way, and always gets compensation buffs.

You want to see nerfed? Look at Elise's patch history.