Lee Sin doesn't have a SINGLE scaling below 80% .

U4fyn2vZzW·Jan 17, 2015·143 votes·8,162 views

Including his shield (which is AP lmfao), as well as having great base damages and a percentage-health execute tied within his Q-Dash.

ButWeHaveBiggerIssuesToWorryAbout

100 Comments

ibeturgoodJan 17, 201576 votes

this sums up lee sins kit

Lajinn5Jan 17, 201560 votes

Everytime they try to nerf Lee he ward jumps behind Sona and kicks her into the bat

Chaotic ReksJan 17, 20155 votes

somebody makes this a gif

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 17, 20151 votes

Awww, I got that image in my head, and now I feel bad for Sona! ;_;

Prison AnaIJan 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Everytime they try to nerf Lee he ward jumps behind Sona and kicks her into the bat

lmao

Blunts4BrekfastJan 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Everytime they try to nerf Lee he ward jumps behind Sona and kicks her into the bat

lcsbigplays

ZakennayoJan 17, 201532 votes

Two very big issues.

Grunt666Jan 17, 201525 votes

havent you heard 80% plus scaling across the board means you have a bad late game LOL.

LankPantsJan 17, 201515 votes

Total AD scaling of 480%, only surpassed by Wukong and Pantheon, both of whom require you to stay in an AOE/DOT in order to get all of their damage off. He has a 'bad late game'.

Champion SkinJan 17, 20152 votes

Well that likely would give Lee Sin more damage as the time they are stuck doing their "Channeled DoTs" Lee Sin can auto attack which has 1:1 AD ratio

MaidenXJan 17, 20151 votes

U forgot fiora m8

LankPantsJan 17, 20153 votes

Fiora's max AD ratio if she hits every tick of her ult to one target is 354%

LeeDarkJan 17, 20154 votes

Yeah, but that's like saying Master Yi does crap damage because his total AD ratio is so low.

U4fyn2vZzWJan 17, 20151 votes

Master Yi is a melee adc he doesn't qualify, one stun and dead, shit start? Useless.

Lee Sin is a ball of stats.

LeeDarkJan 18, 20151 votes

I don't think you understand the term "ball of stats." Lee Sin needs a nerf, but not because of any "ball of stats."

ZamiakeJan 18, 20151 votes

People are wanted lee sin to have actual blindness. Look at the recent lee sin threads and you will see it. To counter balance him they want rek sai's vision mode. it fits thematically too so it is actually a viable option to balancing him since u just cant see anything with out assistance

LeeDarkJan 18, 20152 votes

First off, that has nothing to do with "ball of stats."

Second, I don't really feel like that would balance him. In fact, it would make him, like Rek'Sai, an even more oppressive early game counter-jungler. He is already an excellent early game duelist and ganker; giving him Rek'sai vision would be a huge buff to his ability to "see" past walls. Since you also still get allied vision, his ganks would not suffer in any significant way; worse, he'd probably have an easier time telling if there is a counter-gank.

Rek'sai's sonar is NOT a disadvantage. It is DIFFERENT than normal vision, but in the ways that it is less effective than normal vision, it makes up for it in being able to do more than normal vision.

LeeDarkJan 19, 20151 votes

Oh, I get it, you were pissed I called you out here, so you started stalking me and making idiotic comments wherever you could. You're nothing but a bad troll; goodbye.

ZamiakeJan 20, 20151 votes

No im just going around responding to posts..... Reported

What Is SmiteJan 17, 20151 votes

Takes more skill to fully utilize her kit than you think

KalarepaJan 18, 20153 votes

According to Lee Sin mains, he's got bad late game, because if you build 0 damage items then guess what - surprisingly you do low damage.

JJI744Jan 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

According to Lee Sin mains, he's got bad late game, because if you build 0 damage items then guess what - surprisingly you do low damage.

Tsk, you forgot about his %missing HP damage, which keeps his damage relevant even with no damage items.

Left Hook LarryJun 5, 20151 votes

You do realize he Lee sin is pretty much forced to build tank or he stays irrelevant and gets blown up so quickly?

The Red WardenJan 17, 201517 votes

2 words: BIG PLAY$

SalzigorimandoJan 17, 201517 votes

I like this post, because it's a great chance to point out that Lee Sin and Sona both have opposite sides of the same problem.

Utility and damage are hard to balance.

They are both high utility champs, yet Lee is allowed to have damage because of his role while Sona isn't because of hers.

KingsgraveJan 17, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I like this post, because it's a great chance to point out that Lee Sin and Sona both have opposite sides of the same problem.

Utility and damage are hard to balance.

They are both high utility champs, yet Lee is allowed to have damage because of his role while Sona isn't because of hers.

Offensive utility vs Defensive utility

MawpJan 17, 201510 votes

Lee Sin is also simple to counterplay whereas Sona can bully very hard with undodgeable abilities. She's still very strong, just not god tier like before.

Edit: Okay, Christ. To counter Lee Sin you keep him from snowballing by predicting when he's gonna use his abilities and ward so you can get out before he even ganks. If he's in lane, stay behind minions. He falls off late game, whether you like it or not.

As for Sona, watch a pro play her. They nerfed her because of how strong she was in a pro's hands, not the majority of the community.

LankPantsJan 17, 201519 votes

Lee Sin is also simple to counterplay

Where? How do I counter his kit? If Lee misses a Q he can just chase me down with ward hops and his super high base MS. If I try to engage on him he can kick me away and ward hop away creating around 1.5K units worth of distance. He pays no meaningful resource for his Q so it just becomes a matter of 'if he misses he can wait 6 seconds and try again'. The second Lee lands a Q on a priority target he can follow up and Insec them and if they're an immobile champ that's just too bad, flash or die.

Compare that to Sona, every time she does anything she has to move close to an ally, she's super squishy and puts herself at a huge risk of just being hard engaged on. That's ample counterplay.

I don't know when the community decided that skillshots=conterplay but it's not correct. If you don't lose much for using that skillshot or risk anything with ranges then it doesn't create any counterplay. A targeted skill like Sona's Q can create counterplay by forcing her into risky situations.

She's still very strong, just not god tier like before.

It doesn't matter how strong a champ is if another champion does everything they do better. Nami is literally Sona V2. She has a stronger heal, non-ult CC, a stronger MS boost, less risky poke, a better AA enhancer and an all-round better ult. So why would you play Sona over Nami?

MatezoideJan 17, 20158 votes

Dont forget his 80% scalling is actually half of his 160% scalling ability that has an execute and is a gap closer to boot :^]

U4fyn2vZzWJan 17, 201510 votes

His Q is 90% bonus AD on both intervals, for a 100 + 180% physical damage (+8% Of Missing Health . . .) at level 1 Q .

The SoulforgedJan 17, 20156 votes

aa's have a scaling of 1.0

Red9For LEON2Jan 17, 20156 votes

Lots of scaling, but his largest damage move is a skillshot, his AoE does magic damage meaning he doesn't get any penetration for it late game, AND he's a melee that requires 3 out of his 4 moves to be in close quarters. Wu and Panth have better scaling, better cc, and their abilities are point and click. He's fine. In fact, He's less powerful in the new jungle now that his true damage burn Lizard item is gone.

In other words: if you can dodge his a, he's useless. theres lots of champs like that. No need to QQ, especially when he's in a worse position than he's ever been in.

CrazedPorcupineJan 17, 20151 votes

Except that they changed Cripple to do physical damage quite some time ago.

Red9For LEON2Jan 17, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Except that they changed Cripple to do physical damage quite some time ago.

No, they didn't. It scales with AD but it does magic damage. This is straight from the wiki page:

MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+ 100% bonus AD)

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Lee_Sin

macromiteJan 17, 20154 votes

Last I checked, having mixed damage like that with one scaling was not a weakness. but go ahead, defend lee all you want, I mean, its not like the only thing you can do against him is try to dodge one part of his kit.

Red9For LEON2Jan 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Last I checked, having mixed damage like that with one scaling was not a weakness. but go ahead, defend lee all you want, I mean, its not like the only thing you can do against him is try to dodge one part of his kit.

Its strong in laning phase, but late game thats a big setback. No, you can't build against all of lee's damage with one item (health, Armor, AND MR) but late game lee also won't have any penetration for those spells either. That means he's doing very little damage with it.

U4fyn2vZzWJan 17, 20152 votes

Are you joking? Having instant aoe magic damage that deals 200 + 100% Bonus AD lategame and has the potential to slow all targets struck by 60% is amazing . . .

So he can't build penetration for it? Your point? The fact is that mixed damage allows for some sort of defensive against someone who is counter building your ludicrously high base physical damages. 380 + 180% + 8% Of Target's Missing Health Maxed Q or 600 + 200% Bonus AD to initial and all further struck enemies R.

Red9For LEON2Jan 17, 20155 votes

And looking at it now, a base 200 damage for cripple, 200 for shield, and 600 for a single target ult AREN'T that good of base damages! His q is potent, but thats about it for base damages.

LankPantsJan 17, 20159 votes

a base 200 damage for cripple

Compared to other similar abilities Lee's E does fairly well in terms of damage. It does more damage than Cull the Meek, Ki-burst, Tantrum, Sinister Steel, Crescent Slash and Shadow Slash. It equals Rampage and only gets outdamaged by Empowerd Cull the Meek, and Decimate.

200 for shield

Sona's shield only gives 155 with maxed W/R. Uydr's gives 220, but he can't shield another champ.

600 for a single target ult

You're right, but it's not single target. It also damages any targets who Lee kicks his initial target into.

Red9For LEON2Jan 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Compared to other similar abilities Lee's E does fairly well in terms of damage. It does more damage than Cull the Meek, Ki-burst, Tantrum, Sinister Steel, Crescent Slash and Shadow Slash. It equals Rampage and only gets outdamaged by Empowerd Cull the Meek, and Decimate.

Sona's shield only gives 155 with maxed W/R. Uydr's gives 220, but he can't shield another champ.

You're right, but it's not single target. It also damages any targets who Lee kicks his initial target into.

The base damage isn't bad compared to things like ki burst because ki burst also is an AoE stun. Tantrum can be used every 3 seconds or so, cull the meek can do significantly MORE base damage (and doesn't have a resource cost at all) and heals, and decimate does MORE base damage (210) while being capable of doing a max 315. From what you mentioned, most of those abilites are actually stronger and if they were to be switched on Lee's build for Cripple, it would be considered broken.

Sona's shield only gives 155, but its an aura so it effects multiple allies AND has a heal to go along with it. On top of that, it scales with AP which means sona will actually be able to make use of it. Lee isn't building any AP so the devs KNOW that it has to have a decent base stat. The same can be said for moves like Panth's ult.

And as for the single target thing: yes if it hits all 5 people it does a lot of damage. But thats how AoE works. Youre never going to hit all 5 people when playing against a good team. And if you do manage to do it, its not about you being good; its about them being bad. Amumu's ult has a base damage of 350 and is guaranteed to hit multiple opponents AND has a 2 second stun. Graves has a similar pattern to lee's ult kick, has a base damage of 440 to those behind him (even more to the first target), has a wider hit box (will hit more people) AND is easier to hit because of his range! On top of that it scales better! Its an ult man, I don't know what you want me to tell you. Its powerful. You also have to be right up next to the person to do it and its difficult to land multiple hits. If it weren't powerful it wouldn't be an ult, but its not anywhere near OP. Many other ults have similar damages.

macromiteJan 17, 20159 votes

I think you forgot some things, namely the multiple uses of his abilities

his cripple is strong because it has good damage, and also a pretty good slow, which means to make the damage calculations correct you need to add in the extra aa or two he would get from the slow, which on a mainly ad champion adds quite a bit. cull the meek isn't always better, and using the higher damage version does have a cost, a very big one at that, half of the fury renek has, which means that odds are, in a fight renek won't be using the bigger cull the meek every time, but lee will be able to have his cripple. another thing is that ki burst does ad damage, and while yes, you would not get the penetration, you also get to know that your build will do mixed damage, which is great early on.

yo uare forgetting something, lee sin has a sustain coming out of his shield as well, a huge chunk of life steal and spell vamp pops out of it along with his big shield, and a good reason why sona would have better utility spell than lee sin, because that is pretty much the point of a support, the problem that I see with your point here, is that these abilities can even be compared at all, lee sin should not have so much utility for an early game high damage bruiser. and when you say that it has to have good base stats, I'm just gonna laugh at you, because the reason for it should be the sustain or the jump, it it gives broken sustain, a decent shield, and a quick dash. there are full champions with less loaded kits than lee sins w.

One final note, you can not seriously believe that it is hard in any way for lee to hit more than one person with his ultimate. if he jumps to the back of a team with his crazy mobility, he can kick their backliners into the middle of his frontliners really easily and on the way, odds are it will hit multiple people because of how that works. why lee sins ult is op is not only because of the damage either, its because you can do very little against it. its a knockback so you cant clear it with any form a cc removal, it does good damage, and it can't miss. you mentioned graves for his ult, graves ult has similar damage, but it does not have cc, and his ult is a skill shot.

yo uwant to know one more thing, its thoughts like yours that are why the right champions don't get nerfed, people who play an op champion will fight for them, because in their own minds they have come up with ways to deal with them, but the truth of the matter is that most of the ways that you think lee is not op, are only true if he only had some of the things listed. if lee had access to his crazy mobility w but not his stupid undodgeable cc ult, he would not be op. if he didnt have so much early dominance and late game safety, he would not be op. do you really want to know the reason why lee sin is op? its because he has good enough ad scaling to not really fall off too hard late game, and he has enough utility to where when he does get his crap kicked early, ha can still come back and be a nuisance late game.

DengedenJan 17, 20152 votes

Ok no, and no. "Crazy mobility"? He has 1 guaranteed dash and that's it. There's no way he can use Q as a gap closer and still get off a good ult in a TF. If your carry gets hit by Q that's on you and you alone. It's like calling AP Nid op because her spears do so much damage.

Lee falls off late game, that's an irrefutable fact. His only shot late game is kicking a carry into his team and even if he does this, it's still a 1 for 1 trade. What the heck is Lee gonna do otherwise? Shield with no AP scaling? Oh, and AD scaling means absolutely nothing when you're behind on EXP and items. Either way, full damage Lee gets blown up as soon as he flies in.

LeeDarkJan 17, 20153 votes

Q might as well be resourceless. Lee Sin loses virtually nothing by trying and missing with it, while similar abilities on mana champs eventually run them dry.

The problem with his base damage and scaling is that it allows him to build tanky and continue to duel people even late, while being useful and survivable in teamfights. He is an easy playmaker, which means if you don't have him or someone who is just as easy to make plays with, you are at a disadvantage. His consistently high pick at the highest levels of play show FAR beyond a shadow of a doubt that his kit is overloaded and his minor weaknesses are not enough to make up for his early dominance. If you can't even admit that much, then you have no place in a discussion on balance.

Let's see you try anyway: Why does Lee Sin maintain such high relevance in the pro scene, moreso than almost any other champion, if he is, as you think, underwhelming?

DengedenJan 18, 20151 votes

Didn't say he was UP, I said he wasn't OP. He has high relevance in the pro scene because his early game is great and he can itemize for his team. 90% of pro junglers build sightstone anyway and Lee directly benefits from it. He's consistent, he'll always be able to provide a set amount of utility for his team.
Carry junglers are more risky than Lee, even though they do outscale him. Edit: Resourceless Q means nothing later on. When mages have mana regen it's pretty much resourceless too.

LeeDarkJan 18, 20153 votes

You haven't played a mage lately, have you?

Anyway, that is the point. His early game is WAY TOO GOOD for his utter lack of late game weaknesses. He has too much utility to fall off late, so his early game needs to be less oppressive.

DengedenJan 19, 20151 votes

A melee knock back, a short range slow, an unreliable dash and an unscaled shield, wow that's just... so good. What kind of "weakness" do you even want? All he can do is run around the map and pray your carry gets out of position.

LeeDarkJan 19, 20151 votes

A point and click displacement ult? An AoE stealth reveal, TWO quite reliable dashes, one to get in and one to get out, the highest base shield in the game, AND a passive that means he'll ALWAYS have enough energy to do whatever he wants?

Wow, he must be terrible.

Done playing your bullshit selective bias game. You must be the worst Lee Sin ever if all you do is run around the map and pray a carry gets out of position.