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The Inf. edge change on PBE is a buff against anything with more than 62.5 armor

Irelia Bot··47 votes·17,444 views

If I am all wrong my calculations provide evidence of it and I will edit this to say to disregard this.

EDIT: due to some confusion on why I say 62.5 armor this is what the 125 armor calculation is leaving out. If counting only crits it breaks even at 125 armor but if you included that a Zeal + IE will give 60% crit chance up from the current 50% it is 62.5 as the breaking point for when armor becomes less effective with the PBE version compared to the current live system. I am talking average damage output not limited to only crits.

Infinity Edge New Recipe: [B.F. Sword + B.F. Sword + 1100 gold] Total Cost: 3700g Attack Damage increased from 70 to 80 [Removed] No longer increases critical strike damage. [New Effect] UNIQUE Passive: Doubles your critical strike chance. [New Effect] UNIQUE Passive: 20% of critical strike damage is converted to true damage.

Zeal items still have 30% crit chance.

So we have here effectively a change from (.5A + .5x2.5A) x (100/(100+D)) To (.4xA(100/(100+D)))+ (.6x2Ax.2)+(.6x2Ax.8x(100/(100+D))) A is attackers AD D is the armor of the one being attacked. I'll set A to 100 since 200 will come out to twice as much damage meaning only one set of data for A is needed. D will have sets of data for 0, 50, 100 and 200 0 armor has 175 for old and 160 for new 50 armor has 116.667 and new has 114.667 100 armor has 87.5 for old and 92 damage for new 200 armor has 58.33 damage for old and 69.333

I don't currently have time to calculate in LW as well but since the true damage on new infinity edge is calculated before armor or anythign else it just makes LW items a little less effective when combined with infinity edge. This is also soemthing that will be a case tby case situation due to live LW items beign bonus armor while PBE is total armor.

62.5 armor is the point at which new infinity edge starts becoming better than old infinity edge. This means that a level 12 jax with no bonus armor will be taking more damage.

My suggestion for actually achieving the so called stated goals of nerfing marksmen is nerfing the crit on zeal items to 25% from 30% in addition to all of the stated changes thus far.

If the crit chance on Zeal items were reduced to 25% meaning that with infinity edge it would be 50% crit chance down from 60% the breaking point of the new one would be 125 armor which is honestly the kind of change that would actually make a difference since basically any tank or fighter will have at least 60 armor by the time a marksmen would have 2 items completed.

I call bullshit on it being a nerf to the 2 item power spike. And you are making BotRK cheaper and LW items are total armor so health stacking is also less effective.

Damage creep is real. This might not seem like much but with how riot has done small damage increase like this in the past many times damage is substantially higher than it was in season 2.

I didn't make it pretty but here is the spread sheet with 1 Zeal + IE and 2 Zeal + IE.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qoDNOpodHbYjrrS6kpan1Y8YthpmaOIuPMpvilpOq9g/edit?usp=sharing

76 Comments

TheSandQrator23 votes

Actually you're close but your numbers were a bit off. The breakeven point between the new and old versions of Infinity Edge, assuming matching values for the attacker's AD, armour penetration, critical strike chance, and the defender's armour, is actually 125 armour. More than that means you take more damage, less armour takes comparatively less.

Oddly enough this means that, like you said, gaining additional armour penetration might make the true damage conversion slightly less effective. You're still going to do more damage as they have less effective armour, and the IE doubles your critical strike chance anyway, though, so it's a minor point.

EDIT: Here's the spreadsheet I was talking about. I still have to work on a model for how this and typical builds affect damage output before and after the change, though.

It's a step in the right direction at least.

Honestly I would really love it if they changed it so that crit-based carries didn't necessarily need all the Attackspeed they can get (because pretty much every item that gives Critical Strike Chance now will give Attackspeed too), and end up moving Attackspeed to something that's utilized more for on-hit carry-style champions.

A huge factor that led to Critical Strikes being a problem is the fact that most of the items that gave Critical Strike Chance also gave Attackspeed, which necessarily work in tandem with one another as multipliers for a rightclicker's damage output. So they double-dipped in the effectiveness of both stats just by purchasing one of those items.

ProfDrDeath5 votes

Why is the breakeven point 125 Armor?

1.25 DMG x (1 - (A/(A+100))) = 0.2 x DMG + 0.8 x DMG x (1 - (A/(A+100))) 1.25 DMG x (1 - (A/(A+100))) - 0.8 x DMG x (1 - (A/(A+100))) = 0.2 DMG 0.45 x (1 - (A/(A+100))) = 0.2 0.45 - 0.45 x (A/(A+100)) = 0.2 0.25 = 0.45 x (A/(A+100)) 5/9 = (A/(A+100)) 5/9 x (A +100) = A 500/9 = 4/9 A 500 = 4 A A = 125

That's why the breakeven point is 125 Armor.

Ziovi1 votes

That's correct of course, altough it just shows when a critical hit with new items becomes stronger than a critical hit in the current situation.

However, the scenario is a bit different if we take LDR's changes into consideration. To sum it up, IF YOU HAVE LDR:

Against targets with 0 bonus armor and same HP as you, your single critical hit will hurt them more if their base armor is at least 2

Against targets with bonus armor but same HP as you, it depends... but you will always deal more damage if their base armor is at least 63

Against targets with bonus armore and 2000 HP more than you it depends, but for base armor values between 80 and 100 you will deal more damage if their bonus armor is higer than 200-150 respectively. Notice that the bonus armor required goes down the higher your base armor is. That means that armor is strong early but weak later.

IMPORTANT NOTE: this is only about the single critical hit, so it doesn't take into consideration the increased Critical Rate with the new IE, so the DPS actually increases more than what suggested by what i wrote before. For example, a full build with 80% critical rate becomes a build with 100% critical rate.

I did the math quite in a hurry, so i apologize in advance if i made some mistakes.

Irelia Bot3 votes

{quoted}

Actually you're close but your numbers were a bit off. The breakeven point between the new and old versions of Infinity Edge, assuming matching values for the attacker's AD, armour penetration, critical strike chance, and the defender's armour, is actually 125 armour. More than that means you take more damage, less armour takes comparatively less.

Oddly enough this means that, like you said, gaining additional armour penetration might make the true damage conversion slightly less effective. You're still going to do more damage as they have less effective armour, and the IE doubles your critical strike chance anyway, though, so it's a minor point.

EDIT: Here's the spreadsheet I was talking about. I still have to work on a model for how this and typical builds affect damage output before and after the change, though.

It's a step in the right direction at least.

Honestly I would really love it if they changed it so that crit-based carries didn't necessarily need all the Attackspeed they can get (because pretty much every item that gives Critical Strike Chance now will give Attackspeed too), and end up moving Attackspeed to something that's utilized more for on-hit carry-style champions.

A huge factor that led to Critical Strikes being a problem is the fact that most of the items that gave Critical Strike Chance also gave Attackspeed, which necessarily work in tandem with one another as multipliers for a rightclicker's damage output. So they double-dipped in the effectiveness of both stats just by purchasing one of those items.

The difference is that mine is the theoretical average damage output of crits and non crits assuming a Zeal item and IE are owned while yours is the outcome only on crits meaning that your results will be much higher.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qoDNOpodHbYjrrS6kpan1Y8YthpmaOIuPMpvilpOq9g/edit?usp=sharing

It isn't made to look nice but it gets the job done for the calculations of what will on average happen. Also doing the math for what happens if 2 zeal items are bough with IE capping at 100% crit chance where 100 armor is the breaking point.

{quoted}

How many times are people going to post their inaccurate math.

Read the post below.

Post below? You mean from TheSandQrator? That one is only counting critical strikes and does not include the autos that are not crits in the calculation.

If taking about the breaking point for only crits then yes 125 is accurate but there is also the factor that with the new IE + zeal item it is 60% crit chance instead of 50%. This higher crit chance with the new IE is not calculated for in his example and does result in the armor breaking point being 62.5. I am not focused only on the crits but the damage output overall.

TheSandQrator2 votes

Yeah I dropped the ball a bit by only chiming in with numbers regarding actual critical damage; I couldn't put together a thing to model aggregate damage over a period of time, with the time I had available; I picked a smaller-scope, but still significant case to work on. Especially since it will be pretty damn trivial to assume guaranteed crits with two Zeal items + IE, now.

I had also chosen to work on a best-case-scenario outcome, as one of Riot's goals with this change was to lower the disproportionate impact critical strikes had on a squishy target.

Come the weekend I'm gonna try to model it for myself, since this is a goddamned complex issue and I love puzzles.

Kilanost12 votes

I think people are going to build zeal, not upgrade it, and go straight for IE from there. They'll have 40% crit with IE at this 1.5 item point that comes 1400ish gold sooner. The AS is not nearly as relevant because most ADCs dont get to stand in one place and autoattack at their max AS due to needing to reposition. Ultimately where we end up is that this trend will continue. The next thing they'll build is another zeal because its cheaper than finishing their zeal item and they'll end up with 80% crit at the same point in the game where they used to have 50% crit. Or to put it another way, you'll have the same AS and AD as RFC plus IE with 20% more crit. Also, people will upgrade one zeal item, but upgrade the 2nd zeal item as their 6th item bc they'll get 100% crit from rfc+zeal and be able to funnel that 1400 gold that used to go to upgrading zeal to their next item. Effectively items after this point gets pushed forward by 1400 gold at the cost of 20% AS for not upgrading the 2nd zeal.

Unironic SJW1 votes

{quoted}

I think people are going to build zeal, not upgrade it, and go straight for IE from there. They'll have 40% crit with IE at this 1.5 item point that comes 1400ish gold sooner. The AS is not nearly as relevant because most ADCs dont get to stand in one place and autoattack at their max AS due to needing to reposition. Ultimately where we end up is that this trend will continue. The next thing they'll build is another zeal because its cheaper than finishing their zeal item and they'll end up with 80% crit at the same point in the game where they used to have 50% crit. Or to put it another way, you'll have the same AS and AD as RFC plus IE with 20% more crit. Also, people will upgrade one zeal item, but upgrade the 2nd zeal item as their 6th item bc they'll get 100% crit from rfc+zeal and be able to funnel that 1400 gold that used to go to upgrading zeal to their next item. Effectively items after this point gets pushed forward by 1400 gold at the cost of 20% AS for not upgrading the 2nd zeal.

BF/Dirk/Sheen/Cutlass/versus Zeal means the Zeal user gets smashed in lane by a competent ADC. Hell Pickaxe + 2 Daggers for Rageblade is probably better.

Kilanost1 votes

{quoted}

BF/Dirk/Sheen/Cutlass/versus Zeal means the Zeal user gets smashed in lane by a competent ADC. Hell Pickaxe + 2 Daggers for Rageblade is probably better.

would go bf sword to zeal then finish IE then build another zeal. thats 80% crit

RocketRelm1 votes

Forget zeal #2. Just buy a Brawlers Glove before completing your first Zeal item.

HàrrowR2 votes

I think those that can utilize the new Stormrazor will build that first,it will give them AD+AS + Free crit + more AS and MS,then you go into zeal or shyv/rfc into IE

Altiverse6 votes

Current IE: 250% AD physical dmg on-crit. PBE IE: (200% AD)x0.8 physical dmg + (200% AD)x0.2 true damage. Difference: 250% AD - (200% AD x 0.8) physical dmg = (200% AD) x 0.2 true dmg -> 90% AD physical dmg = 40% true dmg -> 1% AD true dmg = 2.25% AD physical dmg.

2.25 physical dmg equals 1 true dmg at ~55.5% physical dmg reduction, which equals ~120 armor.

That's without counting the second passive obviously, which is both better and worse. It grants 10% more crit after you have a full Zeal item, but you won't have any crit by building IE on its own. It's worth mentioning that all Zeal item costs have been increased, so the spike of both items is delayed.

Kilanost1 votes

{quoted}

Current IE: 250% AD physical dmg on-crit. PBE IE: (200% AD)x0.8 physical dmg + (200% AD)x0.2 true damage. Difference: 250% AD - (200% AD x 0.8) physical dmg = (200% AD) x 0.2 true dmg -> 90% AD physical dmg = 40% true dmg -> 1% AD true dmg = 2.25% AD physical dmg.

2.25 physical dmg equals 1 true dmg at ~55.5% physical dmg reduction, which equals ~120 armor.

That's without counting the second passive obviously, which is both better and worse. It grants 10% more crit after you have a full Zeal item, but you won't have any crit by building IE on its own. It's worth mentioning that all Zeal item costs have been increased, so the spike of both items is delayed.

IE doesnt convery 20% of the damage to true damage, it applies an ADDITIONAL 20% true damage. Also, see my other post about zeal items and, more importantly, zeal itself.

Altiverse12 votes

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m9w_BuyKSp4/WukGY_fzINI/AAAAAAAA-nM/b1yZbirLwEMDl-XBqSBJZO_f-uqrlHTtgCEwYBhgL/s1600/infinity.jpg

Kilanost3 votes

{quoted}

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m9w_BuyKSp4/WukGY_fzINI/AAAAAAAA-nM/b1yZbirLwEMDl-XBqSBJZO_f-uqrlHTtgCEwYBhgL/s1600/infinity.jpg

hmmmmm, I retract my statement and there are a few people that have been doing their math wrong if this is how it is actually working. Thanks the link. Statements about zeal still hold which is my major concern. Too much is getting pushed forward too fast.

TheSandQrator3 votes

Not actually, really. They're intending for the marskman changes to be released in patch 8.11, not 8.10. They're going to be up on the PBE for two patch cycles instead of one, just because of how impactful they will be!

(Meddler sez.)

The problem is that people are jumping the goddamned shark before the public actually run the numbers, and coming to inaccurate conclusions (like the 60 armour breakpoint I'm seeing circulating the boards now). And also the fact that numbers in a vacuum like these don't mean anything sometimes. Who knows, maybe delaying the marksmens' power spikes by 100g at a time will be enough to put them in the shitter. Stranger things have happened.

Automated Riven1 votes

Ok. Can you tell me if I understand the correctly. An adc with 100 ad and IE on live will deal 250 damage with a crit. On pbe he will deal 200. However only 20% of the critical damage will be done as true damage. So 20 damage, correct?

Or am I incorrect and it's applied as such?

20% of the attack which crits is done as true damage. So 40 damage?

Altiverse6 votes

It will deal 40 true damage (200% AD x 0.2 = 40), along with 160 physical damage, which will scale based on the target's armor.

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vujrNylc,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2018-05-03T18:01:26.118+0000)

Ok. Can you tell me if I understand the correctly. An adc with 100 ad and IE on live will deal 250 damage with a crit. On pbe he will deal 200. However only 20% of the critical damage will be done as true damage. So 20 damage, correct?

Or am I incorrect and it's applied as such?

20% of the attack which crits is done as true damage. So 40 damage?

Ok so

100 AD ADC deals 200 damage with a crit on the PBE.

If you have IE on the PBE your 200 damage crit will do 160 Physical and 40 True Damage.

Automated Riven3 votes

I will run the numbers when I get home, but I feel like this is a Nerf until like 150-160 armor. Somehow that true damage has to take up 50% bonus damage that is gone now.

Daddy Ants4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vujrNylc,comment-id=000100000000000100020000,timestamp=2018-05-03T23:27:36.128+0000)

I will run the numbers when I get home, but I feel like this is a Nerf until like 150-160 armor. Somehow that true damage has to take up 50% bonus damage that is gone now.

If that's the case then Riot has succeeded with the intended design goals.

Less Burst vs Squishy targets but more oomph when it comes to killing tankier enemies.

Unless you actually stack armor you won't be getting 160 armor on a Mid Lane Mage, Support Mage/Enchanter, ADC or Non Tank Jungler

Mizaya6 votes

With no armor pen? The damage equalizes at 125 armor for one crit.

Now let's say we have a target with 85 base armor. Old ADC would have bonus damage based on health difference and bonus armor pen from Lord Dom's. New ADC just has 35% total armor pen.

If there's no health difference, the new IE overtakes old at** 62.663 armor.**

If there's a 500 health difference, the new IE overtakes old at 81.6 armor.

If there's a 1000 health difference, the new IE overtakes old at 150 armor.

If there's a 1500 health difference, the new IE overtakes old at 214.25 armor.

If there's a 2000+ health difference, the new IE overtakes old at 272.835 armor.

Now, just for fun, let's see what would have happened if they changed LW but not IE.

So 2.5(100/100+0.65x) vs. 1.6(100/100 + 0.65x)+0.4

New IE would beat old IE at 192.3 armor.

As a matter of fact with our original 85 armor target would be taking 12-13% more damage per crit.

So new IE certainly increases DPS due to the crit chance multiplier, but it's really the return of total armor pen LW that's putting most of the extra punch into autoattacks against anyone who's not a tank.

Bruno Straty673 votes

If they think that the problem is ad carry doing too much damage to low hp champions , why don't they give the giant slayer passive to the IE instead of true damage, since they removed it from the dominik armorpen item. Adc will be more effective vs tanks without the true damage (40% true damage with conquer looks rather stupid if you ask me, whats the point of armor against this).

Aptest2 votes

numbers aside, this is a good change. ignoring armor on some damage gives adc target agnostic damage. meaning, the difference in the tank experience and the squishy experience is diminishing. good.

PB4UAME2 votes

Why is that fucking good? In what goddamn universe?

One of those two is investing all of their already harder to earn gold into defense, and as you are saying, less and less of that matters to them in any way shape nor form, and this is good, meanwhile the fuckers greadily investing everything into damage get all of their damage with no sorts of reductions, even get base stats buffs, and their itemization made EVEN FUCKING STRONGER LATE GAME FOR NO GODDAMN REASON WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN ASKED FOR OVER TWO FUCKING YEARS TO ACTUALLY FUCKING NERF. AND I MEAN GODDAMN ACTUALLY FUCKING TRULY NERFING ADCS-- JUST ONCE, FOR GODFUCKINGDAMN ONE TIME IN THE WHOLE OF LEAGUE'S HISTORY. Why the fuck should anyone buy armor right now? They went from 35% bonus pen to 35% total pen, so fuck us. Then they get up to 20% of their hits as true damage completely invalidating armor as a means of reducing damage, and hell with conqueror, lets make that 36% so already over 1/3 of your armor doesn't matter because lollastwhisperlmao and then another over one third of what's left just doesn't do anything because "lol marksmen needed true damage so nothing could ever survive against them or counterbuild them, and they are untouchable damage carries no other archetype can come close to on top of already having the most ridiculous quintic scaling damage formula with constant OR increasing returns to scale for each of the five multiplicative inputs, as compared to defense with linear or quadaratic scaling, and unit returns to scale"

I mean, for fucksake, look at the gold efficiency of items, then look at how the more offensive stats you have (from base stats, runes, steroids, items, buffs/auras, dragons, elder, baron, etc) the greater the efficiency and gold value of each additional stat is (scaling exponentially, in a quintic, or 5th power relationship as I mentioned before. If you've taken higher level math, just seeing a 5th power function for offense and a 1st or 2nd power function for defense is laughable, especially when each input in the quintic relationship has INCREASING RETURNS TO SCALE on top of everything else, and defense has unit returns--fucking LOL.)

Look at defense then, and each point of armor, before pen/reduction/shred or true damage, is worth only and exactly 1% of your hp pool, and your hp pool is all of your hp times 1.0. 100 armor and 1000 hp = 2,000 pEHP. 200 armor and 100 hp = 3000 pEHP 100 armor and 2,000 hp = 4,000 pEHP. Doubling one side exactly doubles the bonus it provides, unit returns to scale.Having 100 armor from 0, or going to 200 from 100 is worth exactly the same amount of EHP.

Going from 100AD with 1.5 AS 20% crit and 200% crit damage to 200 AD is worth quite a bit more damage than going from 100 AD with .5 AS and 0% crit with 200% crit damage to 200 AD. The former increases damage per second by 180, the second scenario gives only 50. Note, that AD actually has unit returns by itself if and only if there is no crit chance, no crit multiplier, and exactly and only 1.0 AS, but the presence of crit chance in one example makes the value of the AD increase, and the lack of attack speed in the other decreases its value (despite me choosing a value for AS that no ADC can reach as they all have much higher AS even at level 1 and in the case of Jhin/Graves) but in the real game, is over 1.0 AS with as little as a zeal on most ADC or their built in steroids, and actually functions to increase the returns to scale of each other part of the damaging formula.

FilDaFunk3 votes

One point that Rito wanted to make is that the power curve gets pushed later

Oh, 60% crit chance with 2 items.

chipndip12 votes

But the one item spike is way lower.

Azadethe1 votes

It really isn't. 80 AD item, with 20% going True damage is not way lower.

Masala Chai3 votes

the 20% true damage only applies to crits, you will need a zeal item to do true damage.

1011001110001 votes

Building item 1038 > item 3086 > item 3031 is already a thing.

Azadethe1 votes

pretty much.... And since it's now 2 item 1038 , it might even change to item 1038 >item 3086> item 1038 >item 3086 in build order since there's no more item 1018 or item 1037 involved.

That's .... 5200g for 80 AD + 40 % Crit + 10% move speed + 30% attack speed... I haven't done the math yet, but it's probably more cost effective than either finishing the IE or a Zeal item first.

VICHEL CHAOS2 votes

There is some part here that you fail to take into account that is bigger than you think. Let me explain. In the new Ie calcualtion for the first bit (the 0.4 which accounts for the no critting hits) you are not taking into account the damage that is converted into true damage. It should be (0.4xAx0.2)+((0.4xAx0.8)*(100/(100+D)))

Also the very big change here that you fail to take into account is the burst damage. Riot said they wanted to decrease adcs burst vs squishies, not their overall dps against them. The burst is given by a crit and hence in that scenario both hits to be compared can be assumed to crit, which means that in the formulas you would have to change the modifiers which you are adding to account for the frequencies of crits against non crits and such the numbers change quite a bit to show that the new IE would have lower burst against a squishy target.

Azadethe2 votes

it is the Crit, not common hits, that gets converted to True damage. In other words, the crit damage takes precedence over True damage.

VICHEL CHAOS1 votes

Ah thanks, I was sleepy when writing that. The burst damage thing is still a valid point though, and actually the point they wanted to address, not their overall dps.

BobaFlautist2 votes

I.E. is also a much weaker item to rush, meaning that an adc's 2-item power spike is much less likely to be I.E. + zeal item in the first place. I.E. is bad enough on its own, and rushing a zeal item makes farming and trading enough harder that I.E. is much more likely to be a third item.

Azadethe1 votes

It's really not. Pound for pound it's more efficient at gaining crit than any other item in both the OLD system AND the NEW system.

You need to realize: people were rushing it in OLD with only 20% Crit rate 20% is not reliable, and didn't remarkably change clear speed. It was the AD that changed clear speed.

It was the second item.... item 3086 , that got the damage going, because it raised the Crit rate to 40%, making crit more reliable.

item 3031 + item 3086 STILL gives that.

But once you complete the item 3086 item, the Crit rate spikes to 10% MORE than it used to.

Or, if you get 2 item 3086 , that's 80% Crit rate for the cheapest possible solution the game has ever had.

BobaFlautist1 votes

Yes, so it's an ok second item, but a weaker first item.

If you rush I.E. first thing, you're going to be weaker than someone that rushed something else until you get the gold for a zeal on top of the gold you already spent on the I.E., both of which, I might add, will cost more than they do right now. On live, I.E. is probably one of the better first items in the game, making it much easier to get through the awkward I.E.-only portion of the game and farm up a zeal.

Azadethe2 votes

The AD portion of the IE is what carried it, not the crit. 20% Crit is far less reliable than a fixed 40-80 AD in early levels. I think you need to compare adc csing to csing Mid, or top AD's. They don't build crit. But they generally capture cs far easier. Crit rush builds are notorious for missing last hits on minions, because the base AD is so low a missed crit misses finishing them by 3-4 HP.

P.S. To get the same raw stats, it's actually cheaper. Only getting the unique passives is more expensive, and ONLY on the crit items.

While item 3094 item 3087 item 3085 item 3046 are going UP 200g,

item 3072 item 3153 are both down 200g.

But even in Zeal items:

Old: item 3031 item 3046 item 3086 item 3086 item 1051 = 100% Crit for ..... 8800g (Cheapest 100% Crit Build)

New: item 3031 item 3046 item 3086 = 100% Crit Rate for ..... 7800g

In other words, if your goal was Crit rate, you save 1000g getting to 100% Crit rate.

100% Crit =

Earlier easy CS securing Earlier kills/assists, pushing up gold rewards. Faster objectives (especially since item 3031 deals 20% true damage on crits..... meaning drakes, scuttles, barons will go faster, as will certain shots from certain adcs on turrets (4th Shot Jhin actually crits on turrets).

I Seriously doubt the increase in Zeal costs is going to create an obstacle when their core features are actually cheaper.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

The AD portion of the IE is what carried it, not the crit. 20% Crit is far less reliable than a fixed 40-80 AD in early levels. I think you need to compare adc csing to csing Mid, or top AD's. They don't build crit. But they generally capture cs far easier. Crit rush builds are notorious for missing last hits on minions, because the base AD is so low a missed crit misses finishing them by 3-4 HP.

P.S. To get the same raw stats, it's actually cheaper. Only getting the unique passives is more expensive, and ONLY on the crit items.

While item 3094 item 3087 item 3085 item 3046 are going UP 200g,

item 3072 item 3153 are both down 200g.

But even in Zeal items:

Old: item 3031 item 3046 item 3086 item 3086 item 1051 = 100% Crit for ..... 8800g (Cheapest 100% Crit Build)

New: item 3031 item 3046 item 3086 = 100% Crit Rate for ..... 7800g

In other words, if your goal was Crit rate, you save 1000g getting to 100% Crit rate.

100% Crit =

Earlier easy CS securing Earlier kills/assists, pushing up gold rewards. Faster objectives (especially since item 3031 deals 20% true damage on crits..... meaning drakes, scuttles, barons will go faster, as will certain shots from certain adcs on turrets (4th Shot Jhin actually crits on turrets).

I Seriously doubt the increase in Zeal costs is going to create an obstacle when their core features are actually cheaper.

Remove crit from it and only let the finished items have crit. that way you don't have to worry about someone having high crit and shit.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

There are a lot of factors to consider here. You have only touched on the final product.

Infinity Edge now builds out of two BFS and 1100 gold. That's probably one of the worst build paths of all time. Even Banshee's Veil has a better build path than this. You get nothing but raw AD, very gold inefficient, in a class that relies on AD, AS, crit chance and lifesteal to function. And before you cut in and say 'they don't need lifesteal', Fleet of Footwork has been nerfed, health regen has been nerfed, and shields/heals are probably going to be nerfed. Marksmen are going to rely on lifesteal again by the time Riot is done with this.

The item is better after you buy it, but you are forced to buy it later in the game and it does not give you a good power spike until you have it as a third item.

This is definitely a nerf. Only looking at the math of the final product is misleading.

DragonShea2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vujrNylc,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-05-04T01:28:31.099+0000)

There are a lot of factors to consider here. You have only touched on the final product.

Infinity Edge now builds out of two BFS and 1100 gold. That's probably one of the worst build paths of all time. Even Banshee's Veil has a better build path than this. You get nothing but raw AD, very gold inefficient, in a class that relies on AD, AS, crit chance and lifesteal to function. And before you cut in and say 'they don't need lifesteal', Fleet of Footwork has been nerfed, health regen has been nerfed, and shields/heals are probably going to be nerfed. Marksmen are going to rely on lifesteal again by the time Riot is done with this.

The item is better after you buy it, but you are forced to buy it later in the game and it does not give you a good power spike until you have it as a third item.

This is definitely a nerf. Only looking at the math of the final product is misleading.

might as well make it a item 1036 +item 1037 +item 1038 so you get damage and pay 1175 gold before getting the item.

RocketRelm1 votes

I'm not going to lie, reading "2 BFS and 1100 gold, one of the worst build paths of all time" gave me my fair share of laughs, because Deathcap's build path just got buffed to "2 NLR + 1100 gold", and the comparison just popped into my head.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Yes, and Deathcap has absolutely DISAPPEARED since its scaling was focused and its build path was changed.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Except the difference is that ADCs need crit chance, attack speed, and AD primarily. Mages pretty much just need AP. And that's all Rabadon's has ever been - AP. Any mage going into Rabadon's is going into it just for the AP, nothing else. But ADCs going into IE go into it for crit chance, crit damage (changed to true conversion), and AD.

A better comparison would be if Luden's built out of two NLR.

Irelia Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Except the difference is that ADCs need crit chance, attack speed, and AD primarily. Mages pretty much just need AP. And that's all Rabadon's has ever been - AP. Any mage going into Rabadon's is going into it just for the AP, nothing else. But ADCs going into IE go into it for crit chance, crit damage (changed to true conversion), and AD.

A better comparison would be if Luden's built out of two NLR.

They still get all 3 stats from 2 items and it is better than shown since there is 10 more AD on IE.

I really jsut want them to nerf the crit chance on Zeal to 15% from 20% and the crit chance on completed zeal items to 25% from 30% so that the breaking point is 125 if only doing the crit + non crit average damage calculation.Z Well... what i really want them to do is change the system to have no RNG at all. They could even keep this new IE by having it be 20% of "crit chance" is converted to true damage.

TheSandQrator1 votes

At the same time, if you buy Critical Strike Chance, with these itemisation changes you are almost guaranteed to get a non-negligible amount of attack speed at the same time. So the argument that they require several different stats to function still holds, yes, but is a bit weaker because they necessarily get another of those desirable stats when they buy one particular one.

And I'd personally argue that looking at the final product is the most important part, as the finalized item has been changed the most. Yes, the build up is also important, but this class is designed to scale greatly with items, becoming a late game powerhouse. This was an attempt to clip their wings in certain scenarios even at the height of their power, so to approach that side of things first, when this whole situation is pretty complex, isn't exactly a bad way to go about it.

And I'll be bloody glad if they actually have to intentionally itemize towards lifesteal again to get an effective amount of it, instead of getting pretty decent sustain almost accidentally.

1011001110001 votes

You're calculating A as 100 for both PBE and Live even though PBE IE has 10 more AD outright? You should be adding 10 damage to your PBE calculations if you're going to make a straight 2 item powerspike comparison since IE has 10 more AD straight.

You'll find the 10 AD buff narrow the raw damage difference so much there's no real disadvantage to the 2 item powerspike despite the changes.

C.C. x (AD x Crit Damage) + (1 – C.C.) x AD

Live: .5 x 100 + .5 x 250 = 175

PBE: .4 x 110 + .6 x 220 = 176

Welcome to straight buffs. :^)

Irelia Bot3 votes

{quoted}

You're calculating A as 100 for both PBE and Live even though PBE IE has 10 more AD outright? You should be adding 10 damage to your PBE calculations if you're going to make a straight 2 item powerspike comparison since IE has 10 more AD straight.

You'll find the 10 AD buff narrow the raw damage difference so much there's no real disadvantage to the 2 item powerspike despite the changes.

C.C. x (AD x Crit Damage) + (1 – C.C.) x AD

Live: .5 x 100 + .5 x 250 = 175

PBE: .4 x 110 + .6 x 220 = 176

Welcome to straight buffs. :^)

This is jsut a damage calculation releating to the avrage damage output with the crit 2 systems for IE.

I have not missed that factor but was focused on the actual calculation of damage done by the crit systems of old and new.

If going for an actual situation where you might see this you can calculate it out using a level 12 Caitlyn with a base AD of 83.5

Also it says it converts 20% of critical strike damage to true damage. It does not say it adds 20% true damage.

1011001110001 votes

I don't know where you're getting that I said it adds 20% true damage, I used 100 AD as the base damage stat for live calculations and 110 AD as the base damage stat for pbe calculations, because the 10 AD buff exists.

But yeah, I now understand you're trying to point out that the new system will be more efficient, I'm a bit too focused on the practical superiority for the new system accounting for more changes.

Irelia Bot1 votes

{quoted}

I don't know where you're getting that I said it adds 20% true damage, I used 100 AD as the base damage stat for live calculations and 110 AD as the base damage stat for pbe calculations, because the 10 AD buff exists.

But yeah, I now understand you're trying to point out that the new system will be more efficient, I'm a bit too focused on the practical superiority for the new system accounting for more changes.

I saw 220 and miss interpreted it since I have not been including the 10 AD in the calculations.

I have decided I can't really get to into detail about the LW changes since base armor is different for everyone but it will make it better against marksmen and since flat is applied after % fro mwhat I understand Rengar will be doing basically true damage to many marksmen.

1011001110002 votes

item 3035 changes from 35% Bonus to 10% Total are pretty much just bad in general for the item.

At any base armor value, if you have a bonus armor value greater than 40% of your base armor value (e.g. 100 Base Armor, 45 Bonus Armor, 145 Total Armor), then the new 10% Total is strictly inferior.

In the worst case scenario, Braum has the highest Base Armor at Level 18 (115), he just needs to build 46 more Armor for the new LW (10% Total) to be worse than its old form. Most staple armor items grant this alone.

item 3036's penetration stats are just outright better all the time.

item 3033's penetration stats become worse on pbe than live once the attack target has a bonus armor value that is over 250% greater than the base armor value (e.g. 100 Base Armor, 260 Bonus Armor, 360 Total Armor).

If you want to calculate which armor penetration items are better in a single slot:

item 3142 = 18 Lethality

item 3036 - If the target has over 51.428571... Armor, this item is more efficient than a Lethality item. This item is a better pen item naturally against every champion in the game by around Level 14, at which point everyone exceed the threshold.

item 3033 - If the target has over 72 Armor, this item is more efficient than a Lethality item. This item is a better pen item naturally on every champion at Level 18 bar three champions ( Heimerdinger Azir Orianna )

Unless I messed up somewhere when I figured this out.

Edit: It just occurred to me I didn't explain how I arrived at these conclusions.

Equation time!

TAP = Total Armor Pen BAP = Bonus Armor Pen X = Point of Base Armor Y = Point of Bonus Armor

Calculating strict LW changes:

TAP = 0.1X + 0.1Y

BAP = 0.35Y

If TAP = BAP, then

0.1X + 0.1Y = 0.35Y

0.1X = 0.25Y

0.4X = Y

So TAP and BAP are equal when Y (Bonus Armor) = 40% of X (Base Armor), and is subsequently greater at any value when Y is greater than 40% of X.

The same can be done to Mortal:

0.25X + 0.25Y = 0.35Y

0.25X = 0.1Y

2.5X = Y

So TAP and BAP are equal when Y = 250% of X, and is subsequently greater at any value when Y is greater than 250% of X.

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