@Riot, What is the greater goal for Marksman this season?

Skias··15 votes·1,204 views

I'd like some insight into the greater goal for marksman in the next season. ADCs dominate in so many positions and are so swingy in bottom lane at the moment, it makes other positions a bit of a misery.

Top lane not only has to deal with the dreadful melee into ranged matchup, their position is dependant on crushing bottom lane because herald isn't a powerful enough objective to make top half of the map a worthy area to contest.

Mid lane stands to have even more marksmen in it now that they will have access to three power MR based items, two of which reduce burst value.

Bottom lane is super snowbally and stompy due to the incredible speed marksmen ramp up at coupled with the fact that their lane is the most power map objective available.

It feels like so much map value and importance is placed bottom and I feel that value needs to be spread back out to give reasons to go elsewhere. The 4 man collapse bottom isn't fun for anyone.

Is this on the balance teams radar? Any insight we can be given to make us feel season 7 will have more balanced map attraction as opposed to a bot lane free for all were experiencing now?

Edit: for me personally, this is a large deciding factor as to my participation next season, so I'm very curious.

21 Comments

Ralanr11 votes

Personally, I feel that if the assassins can't do their job after some buffs or two, marksmen might need to get nerfed to help balance things out.

Skias6 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I feel that if the assassins can't do their job after some buffs or two, marksmen might need to get nerfed to help balance things out.

Yeah, marksman have gotten more defensive options along with kit level offense increases. Its make them able to not only remove opposition from other lanes but make their own lane more stompy with the weird tower changes Riot imposed. I understand the lane swap in the upper 1% had to be stopped, but it has made the rest of the game really warped in the process.

Teridax689 votes

I feel the idea of marksmen as the game's designated carry class has been making less and less sense since last preseason: teams are no longer restricted to a single marksman, and many of them are now strong enough to go into solo positions. Several of these marksmen even turn into lane bullies, including against melee champions notorious for their strength in lane. The "weak early game" of marksmen isn't really a thing anymore, and let's be honest, that was never fun to begin with. However, marksmen still dominate late-game, and are still expected to be the most important member of their team, which doesn't quite match up to their increased early game agency and is, to a degree, kind of insulting to everyone else.

Right now, there are a ton of non-marksmen who qualify as "hypercarries", yet none of them require the attention of their team to the same degree as marksmen, nor does their hypercarry curve put them at the center of attention come late game when marksmen are around. It would be nice to have team comps revolving around Karthus, Veigar or Nasus, for example, but even at the height of their power they're still not considered as valuable as late-game marksmen. There's nothing about marksmen that makes them intrinsically more deserving of applause or attention than other classes, it's just that the late game revolves so heavily around objectives, which can only truly be taken with powerful basic attacks, that marksmen become central to their team by default.

Personally, I think it's fine for marksmen to be viable in every position, because ultimately that brings more diversity, at least to the marksman class. The issue, however, is that marksmen still have a monopoly on one of the bot lane positions, and their presence in other lanes has often led to reduced diversity in other classes. Melee vs. ranged is an issue, as highlighted in the OP, but the overall imbalance in team contributions also means that picking a marksman essentially means you get to secure your late-game no matter what, on top of having potentially great performance in lane. Picking an extra marksman in top lane isn't too risky, since they'll eventually be strong enough to do all of the standard marksman stuff, but any other pick is, since they might not be able to contribute nearly as much as the game goes on. While this might make for a painful transition, Riot needs to take marksmen out of the spotlight, and make them a class just like any other: a world in which marksmen could make extremely valuable contributions, yet not to the point of them being mandatory in every team, is a world in which more classes can feel special, and in which team comps could be significantly more diverse. There are probably also positional changes that should happen, e.g. changes to Rift Herald to make it more attractive, but ultimately the game will continue to revolve around a marksman duo bot lane as long as they remain the game's designated carry class.

Skias2 votes

{quoted}

I feel the idea of marksmen as the game's designated carry class has been making less and less sense since last preseason: teams are no longer restricted to a single marksman, and many of them are now strong enough to go into solo positions. Several of these marksmen even turn into lane bullies, including against melee champions notorious for their strength in lane. The "weak early game" of marksmen isn't really a thing anymore, and let's be honest, that was never fun to begin with. However, marksmen still dominate late-game, and are still expected to be the most important member of their team, which doesn't quite match up to their increased early game agency and is, to a degree, kind of insulting to everyone else.

Right now, there are a ton of non-marksmen who qualify as "hypercarries", yet none of them require the attention of their team to the same degree as marksmen, nor does their hypercarry curve put them at the center of attention come late game when marksmen are around. It would be nice to have team comps revolving around Karthus, Veigar or Nasus, for example, but even at the height of their power they're still not considered as valuable as late-game marksmen. There's nothing about marksmen that makes them intrinsically more deserving of applause or attention than other classes, it's just that the late game revolves so heavily around objectives, which can only truly be taken with powerful basic attacks, that marksmen become central to their team by default.

Personally, I think it's fine for marksmen to be viable in every position, because ultimately that brings more diversity, at least to the marksman class. The issue, however, is that marksmen still have a monopoly on one of the bot lane positions, and their presence in other lanes has often led to reduced diversity in other classes. Melee vs. ranged is an issue, as highlighted in the OP, but the overall imbalance in team contributions also means that picking a marksman essentially means you get to secure your late-game no matter what, on top of having potentially great performance in lane. Picking an extra marksman in top lane isn't too risky, since they'll eventually be strong enough to do all of the standard marksman stuff, but any other pick is, since they might not be able to contribute nearly as much as the game goes on. While this might make for a painful transition, Riot needs to take marksmen out of the spotlight, and make them a class just like any other: a world in which marksmen could make extremely valuable contributions, yet not to the point of them being mandatory in every team, is a world in which more classes can feel special, and in which team comps could be significantly more diverse. There are probably also positional changes that should happen, e.g. changes to Rift Herald to make it more attractive, but ultimately the game will continue to revolve around a marksman duo bot lane as long as they remain the game's designated carry class.

Yeah, there isnt a single class of champions that scale better or are more powerful than marksman. They are so overwhelmingly powerful that no other class can compete in their lane. They also have no problem dominating in other lanes. This is the most stagnant part of the game. The most required class in the game is the most simple straight forward class, with 80% of their throughput delivered through right clicking at a distance. I'm ready to see changes here. We're 6 seasons deep into the same Marksman centric gameplay. I want to hear from Riot on this, because I don't know if I'm in for a 7th season of it. 4 man collapse bot strat every game doesn't interest me.

Teridax683 votes

I do think there's more to marksmen than just right-clicking from a distance (competitive-level marksman play actually gets pretty mechanically intensive), but I agree that right now they're getting disproportionate amounts of power and recognition in the game, and I also agree that they're probably creating the biggest stagnancy issues right now in League. What peeves me is that Riot acknowledges that the game needs a bit more ongoing diversity, but has chosen to address it this season by adding new mechanics, i.e. plants, instead of trying to make the compositional/positional meta less fixed, an issue that's been ongoing since the start of competitive League. Making marksmen less central to the game would definitely be unpopular among many players, but it would generate much more enjoyment overall, whereas stuff like the plant system has just ended up making a lot of players uncomfortable about the amount of control they'll have over their own games.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Well, we could always return to the tank meta (not juggernaut). Back when defensive stats meant something after the first 10 minutes and ADC's had to suffer a target that didn't go down in 2-3 AA's.

But that would mean less snowballs, more turtleing, and longer games. Three things Riot has taken a public stance against.

Teridax682 votes

The tank meta definitely had tankier tanks, but it was still a time when marksmen were centric to the game. The issue isn't just that marksmen deal too much damage -- everyone deals too much damage right now -- it's that marksmen are still essential while other classes are not, and are still the centerpiece of every game despite becoming much more common across all positions. That can only be resolved through deeper changes to the game, namely to objectives, as well as changes to itemization.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

The changes that would fix ADC value are likely beyond the scope of anything we'll see in LoL (and other DoTA clones) for a while. The problem is ranged exponentially scaling DPS - which is a staple of the DOTA/LoL formula. Exponential DPS is the strongest mechanic in the game, which means the meta will inherently always revolve around it. And the game design assumes all champions are melee which gives range an inherent advantage.

Tank meta didn't solve their importance, but it created a dynamic where tADC's didn't decide everything. Right now they just blow everyone up with impunity. Their itemization options are the best in the game. Even the items designed specificity to counter them item 3075 item 3143 item 3047 item 3110 lose relevance as long as the ADC has as many or more items (relative).

Riot made ADC's ramp up faster, and they continue to do so in order to avoid that dreaded thirty-first minute. Their decision to encourage snowballing and speed up the game is the primary reason we have the ADC problem. Continuing to give them more and better defensive and utility options isn't helping.

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

The tank meta definitely had tankier tanks, but it was still a time when marksmen were centric to the game. The issue isn't just that marksmen deal too much damage -- everyone deals too much damage right now -- it's that marksmen are still essential while other classes are not, and are still the centerpiece of every game despite becoming much more common across all positions. That can only be resolved through deeper changes to the game, namely to objectives, as well as changes to itemization.

Things aren't looking good for resolve. That tree still looks very weak. I wouldn't expect tanks to make a come back this season. Especially since the assassin items will benefit marksman again. That Edge of Night is going to really suck to fight.

WoonStruck6 votes

The greater goal for marksmen is probably to buff them again even though they don't need it.

Watch it happen during/after the diver update, which will give decent tools for the new assassins as well since they were basically turned into fighters.

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

indeed. adc rework "unnecessary buffs" incoming this preseason lol

Chief Mayonnaise4 votes

I'm hoping that the changes to armor penetration and Youmuu's in particular will slow down ADC's as a whole by forcing people to go back to crit builds. This way ADC's won't spike at 1 item and will instead spike at 2.

I really, really want them to make rift herald relevant. I honestly think Herald should give some sort of team buff instead of the 1 person buff right now. Rift herald just doesn't seem to be that useful right now, and its usefulness goes unnoticed because it only affects 1 player.

I'd also like Rift Herald to be more important because I am so sick of getting 4 man ganked at bottom lane. It's absolutely ridiculous how many games are decided in favor of whoever group ganked bottom lane first. I understand why it happens, I just want Riot to actually try to give other options.

Valexfor2 votes

If only they made top lane turret the weaker one isntead of bottom turret, things wouldn't be like this for 2 reasons:

  1. This will enable splitpushers back into the game (it might seem unhealthy, but splitpushing is not unhealthy at all, right now the champs based around it are) since, by giving a weaker top tower it will be easier to take it alone, and top will be home for tanks and duelers again since, by having a weaker turret, you either need to be able to survive a dive by yourself (so by being tanky), or you need to be able to fight back that dive (again by yourself meaning that you need strong dueling capabilities). Also a weaker top tower will be balanced out by the fact that, by having a duo bot, both towers need about the same level of effort to take since bot you will, hipothetically, take the stronger tower with 3/4 people (depending on situations), while top you will take the tower with 2/3 people (again depending on the situation), but since the tower it's weaker it will take about the same effort, this will prevent laneswaps the same way having a weaker bottom tower does, but will also enable more depth to the choices of a jungler. Now, this is all fine and cool, but still why would a jungler gank top if he potentially can gain more by ganking bot? that's where we go to point 2;
  2. Rift herald is strong on splitpushers who want to stay by themselves in lane, push, either take tower and one or two kills or take the enemy team's aggro so that theyr team can pressure somwhere else on the map and take something else, the buff it's also weak on duo lanes so this makes duo lane more suited bot combined with the fact that dragon is there and it's easier to take with a marksman rather than a bruiser/tank. Again this is cool and all, but why would a jungler prefer to gank top? Because splitpushers usually snowball heavily and become an immediate threat far earlier in the game than marksmans meaning that, giving them some advantages, will make it so they will just snowball that lead by themselves, relieving the jungler some pressure by letting him focus on other lanes without having to worry too much since if the enemy jungler ganks top, your top might trade 1 for 1, escape or even take them both and probably do some heavy damage to the tower/take it (you have a bad situation, an average situation and a good situation, which means that 2/3 scenarios are actually in your favor so statistically speaking it has a higher chance to go well, especially counting that, even if the top laner were to be forced to back/die after the fight, as long as he killed at least one of them, the lane willl either push on it's own or the enemy jungle will be up to be stealed, especially if the one who died is theyr jungler), if no one goes top to stop the splitpusher though he will just dive the lone top laner and win all the times, taking towers, farm, maybe kills and setting the enemy laner so much behind that he will be fodder for the rest of the team if he tries to join a fight, so he's stuck top feeding the splitpusher hoping that someday a 4 man gank will save him. This will also mean that, by accelerating the splitpusher's threat you will relieve bot from extra pressure, meaning that it will have an easier time reaching it's own powerspike since there will be less pressure on your bot and more o ntheyrs, especially counting that a good splitpusher can also easily invade the enemy jungle and straight up kill the jungler to prevent him from ganking whilestealing some of his farm.

Now there are infinite ways to deal with a splitpusher, but that's what makes it healthy, and to be fair, as a support main, it would be so much better to have every lane have the same priority for a reason or the other, I talked about splipushers, but the ivnerse logic applies to tanks top: you as a jungler have to take into account that the enemy jungler will gank your tank and will snowball his own laner since, even in a fight between tanks, one kill is enough to snowball the lead, especially with herald's buff and against a weaker tower, now, someone might argue about teleport preventing top from snowballing too much it's lead, but if the enemy laner has no teleport and you gank top again and force him to either back or you manage to kill him, you have just enabled your top to back, buy, and help you gank bot with a 5 man gank since he will not be set behind by this roam because he can still tp top after the gank, and the enemy will not have enough time to pushi his wave into the turret... Seriously why the hell didn't riot do this?...

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

I'm hoping that the changes to armor penetration and Youmuu's in particular will slow down ADC's as a whole by forcing people to go back to crit builds. This way ADC's won't spike at 1 item and will instead spike at 2.

I really, really want them to make rift herald relevant. I honestly think Herald should give some sort of team buff instead of the 1 person buff right now. Rift herald just doesn't seem to be that useful right now, and its usefulness goes unnoticed because it only affects 1 player.

I'd also like Rift Herald to be more important because I am so sick of getting 4 man ganked at bottom lane. It's absolutely ridiculous how many games are decided in favor of whoever group ganked bottom lane first. I understand why it happens, I just want Riot to actually try to give other options.

If Rift Herald had done its job and was a more team beneficial buff instead of a weird timed selfish buff, we would see more people fighting for it. As it stands right now, getting your ADC fed is the most important thing you can do. Everything else isn't as useful. So every game feels like the same thing. Crush bottom, win. Your bottom gets crushed, get pounded for 10mins then surrender.

Bladerunner77772 votes

this has to be a joke

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

For season 7 Riot intends to revisit all the lanes and double down on what their proper job is.

Top: Gank bot. Mid: Gank bot. Jun: Gank bot. Sup: ADC's personal Slave. ADC: Highlight Reels.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

Maybe its just me but I think if you can get marksmen off of assassin items, they're otherwise fine? Ideally I'd want to get Quinn and any other ranged carries out of top lane but I don't see what the big deal is if there's 2 pseudo marksmen junglers, for example

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vuANmnOg,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-11-05T03:45:22.857+0000)

Maybe its just me but I think if you can get marksmen off of assassin items, they're otherwise fine? Ideally I'd want to get Quinn and any other ranged carries out of top lane but I don't see what the big deal is if there's 2 pseudo marksmen junglers, for example

I have less problems with Marksman junglers than I do with them putting a pillow over the face of top laners. Marksman just inherently make playing Melee a misery. Top lane never gets attention because their job is to kill bottom. Mids job is to kill bottom so you don't get help there either. It turns into being trapped on an island where you can't fight back.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

I don't like fighting top lane marksmen or mages either but I don't think that comes from there being an inherent imbalance, its just range vs melee no matter what. luckily it usually isn't very good for their comp.

Skias1 votes

Removing defenses from bottom tower was also besting players over the head with "any decision you make that isn't crushing not feels like the wrong choice."

MlSTER CLEAN1 votes

I have no idea what you are talking about. ADC is the weakest role in the current meta.

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