@Meddler Can Taric get a mana return for Bravado against Champions?

Skias·Nov 15, 2016·74 votes·7,448 views

This seems to me like a great way to improve Taric's ability to lane without giving him damage. He needs some sort of reward for risking damage to Bravado his enemies. The cool down reduction is great, but even then, he has to spend more mana to benefit from it. His mana costs on Q punish you for leveling it and his W is very lackluster to level.

He feels like he needs a tiny something to put him in a good spot.

Any considerations?

79 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 16, 201635 votes

Not Meddler, sorry, but can speak to this a bit.

Taric actually had this mechanic internally at various points, but we stripped it out in a general trimming pass along the way (mechanics tend to build up in kits, even into release sometimes).

Taric's early laning is pretty rough, and if we ever get a chance to help him out in that regard, that would be pretty nice. Early Mana costs especially seem to be a good opportunity, since he feels really constrained in that regard. That said, I'm not sure he's weak right now to the point that merits a buff. His late game especially is really strong.

WiegrafOfValorNov 16, 20162 votes

Repertoir, can we get a ON-HIT item without AS steroid?

I know it seems out of topic, but as a ex-Taric TOP player, I think a heavy damage ON-HIT item without AS could bring him back to TOP without any changes with his kit.

Plus we don't have an item like that and next season it's at our door, just want you to toss that idea to anyone involved in creating new items for the next season.

Skia AsteriNov 16, 201631 votes

{quoted}

Repertoir, can we get a ON-HIT item without AS steroid?

a heavy damage ON-HIT item without AS

item 3748

WiegrafOfValorNov 16, 20165 votes

This is a scaling On-hit, you need to build HP to become efficient..

I mean an item more like item 3091 without AS and more ON-HIT damage, something you could rush to it to get ahead on the laning phase.

You can't rush item 3748 and expect to win trades with Taric TOP.

Try to at least understand the situation before your reply.

I'm in a good mood so I'll try to enlight you somehow..

#Here's some math:

item 3748 cost 3500g

Awful for laning phase since you'll have to waste a lot of time getting gold for it. For comparison, it's almost a item 3078

TARIC AT LVL 6 HAS BASE HP OF 931 AND 1182 AT LVL 9.
TITANIC HYDRA GIVES A TOTAL OF 450 HP.
TITANIC HYDRA ON-HIT DAMAGE IS [ 5 + 1% MAX HP ]

ON-HIT DAMAGE OF TITANIC HYDRA WITH TARIC AT LVL 6 = 18

ON HIT DAMAGE OF TITANIC HYDRA WITH TARIC AT LVL 9 = 21

You are really telling me that 18~21 physical damage can be consider "heavy damage on-hit item" ?

And why would I rush such item if I can have 40 on-hit + AS for 2500g ( 1000g less )

item 3091 = 2500g = 40 on-hit at lvl 6. item 3748 = 3500g = 18 on-hit at lvl 6, 21 on-hit at lvl 9.

#EDIT

#LOL GETTING DOWNVOTES BECAUSE PPL CAN'T HANDLE TITANIC HYDRA IS SHIT ON LANING PHASE.. MATH HURTS NOW.. K

ShahamutNov 16, 201612 votes

As someone who played Taric top, especially right after his rework, I can tell you this:

your 3 item core is Sunfire Cape, Spirit Visage, and Titanic Hydra.

you rush Bami's Fire, which adds a lot of dmg in trades, then either finish sunfire vs AD or get Spirit Visage vs AP.

A "heavy damage on-hit item", as you put it, would not be that helpful to Taric and would probably be TOO good on certain other champs (Renekton comes to mind).

Besides that, on hit items usually come with attack speed because, I dunno, you have to AUTO ATTACK to proc it? It just makes sense.

No math needed here.

ShahamutNov 16, 20165 votes

I guess I forgot to finish the build (assuming a balanced enemy team):

item 3068 item 3065 item 3748 item 3025 item 1001 of choice then one of the following:

item 3107 item 3512 item 3742 item 3026 item 3091 if ya feel like it, or item 3146 cuz you want a slow :P

AinTheBrainNov 16, 20164 votes

When I play taric top/jungle I usually build an early tear, and when it's near being fully stacked I upgrade it into muramana.

SkiasNov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

When I play taric top/jungle I usually build an early tear, and when it's near being fully stacked I upgrade it into muramana.

I like tear on him early and hate it late game. I feel like I'm always wanting more beef. Ive been opting for Frozen Heart as my 2nd mana item.

AinTheBrainNov 16, 20161 votes

yeah I usually get a tear and sheen first back and then build a frozen gauntlet and a frozen heart before I get manamune.

SkiasNov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

yeah I usually get a tear and sheen first back and then build a frozen gauntlet and a frozen heart before I get manamune.

I used to do that but you die too fast without the health from Bami. You gotta get some HP from somewhere to take advantage of running tons of armor runes.

WiegrafOfValorNov 16, 20163 votes

Others champions that rush the same items you said and have more impact are:

Shen = Ult has global presence, more mobility even without TP off CD. Better choice than Taric to go for this high HP build. Plus better lane phase.

Sion = Build in scaling HP synergizing better with Titanic, better lane phase, heavy engage and Shield that scales with HP.

Sejuani = Skill with HP scaling, better engage and better lane phase.

Nautilus = Way better lane phase, Shield with HP scaling, more CC and it's easier to land it.

Olaf = Great lane phase, build in defense steroids + CC imunity making HP worth a lot more.

So you're telling me I'm suppose to go for a sub-par build, weak lane phase, if I can have more impact going for the same items with other champions?

Taric has to play with his strenghts, he has 2 quick AA that can exploit on-hit items, he doesn't need AS so it's not optimal invest gold in it, thus making the on-hit items we have right now not appealing for him. Going full tank is a bad gamble for him, since full HP stacking Taric is way better as support.

To survive TOP and increase his impact on trades and lane phase he needs a strong on-hit item. Others champions could benefit for those items as well, since right now the only champions that can use on-hit builds are AS oriented.

The game lacks an item that covers AA damage for champions that doesn't synergize with AS and don't have good ratios.

Taric - Doesn't synergize with AS, doesn't have good scaling.

SpoofghoulNov 16, 20165 votes

item 3042 has good on hit with no attack speed, so we do have such an item, gies him mixed damage too and scales with some other nice armor items like item 3025 Also helps with his mana issues

Though item 3047 item 3025 item 3748 item 3068 item 3065 And item 3027 item 3742 item 3075 item 3083 as situational options That should work fine for a regular bruiser Taric build

Alternatively but experimental, and making use of Muramana

item 3047 item 3025 item 3042 item 3027 item 3065 item 3068 Due to Rod he will now heal 25 hp per muramana proc increased by visage & runic armor to about 33 All his abilities will heal him for 33 as well due to the high mana costs.

you get about 90 extra ad with a base ad of up to 114 thats 204 damage with an almost 200 damage muramana proc and an extra 114 damage sheen proc so you will be dealing spell then 900 dmg then spell then 850 dmg then spell then 800 damage in a full rotation more or less for like 2550 physical damage and then you can add the on hit damage from passive the sunfire and the spell damage to that which is magical damage

should be enough to demolish squishy targets easily enough and have plenty of bulk aswelll as in combat healing. Sounds fabulous to me

Would that be what your looking for in your top Taric build?

HammermancerNov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

has good on hit with no attack speed, so we do have such an item, gies him mixed damage too and scales with some other nice armor items like Also helps with his mana issues

Though And as situational options That should work fine for a regular bruiser build

Alternatively but experimental, and making use of Muramana

Due to Rod he will now heal 25 hp per muramana proc increased by visage & runic armor to about 33 All his abilities will heal him for 33 as well due to the high mana costs.

you get about 90 extra ad with a base ad of up to 114 thats 204 damage with an almost 200 damage muramana proc and an extra 114 damage sheen proc so you will be dealing spell then 900 dmg then spell then 850 dmg then spell then 800 damage in a full rotation more or less for like 2550 physical damage and then you can add the on hit damage from passive the sunfire and the spell damage to that which is magical damage

should be enough to demolish squishy targets easily enough and have plenty of bulk aswelll as in combat healing. Sounds fabulous to me

Would that be what your looking for in your top build?

in complete honesty you can run full armor runes on him with a 0/18/12 thunderlords (Grab intelligence and the mana regen for early laning power) or 0/12/18 colossus (You know what to grab)

start off with a item 1027 and W, why W? because it keeps you alive

first B grab item 3057 and a few cloth armors, because you're probably facing an ad champ, obviously you're rushing item 3025

Then i'd say go for something like item 3742 or item 3068 , and grab a item 3077 as soon as you can (Waveclear basically)

skip the boots, you're gonna keep people stunlocked. by grabbing item 3065 and a standard super armor+health taric build, you can take ravenous hydra, it adds a lot to what you're gonna do

Because when the enemy team is Yasuo Zed Volibear Ashe Shaco or something similar..... which in this meta... yeah we're gonna see lots of these... then you're gonna win, you're gonna win hard.

and i mean when you get there after your team wipes because it takes four years to clear a wave of minions, that doesn't matter... you're gonna win the 1v5... they can't win...

SkiasNov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

As someone who played Taric top, especially right after his rework, I can tell you this:

your 3 item core is Sunfire Cape, Spirit Visage, and Titanic Hydra.

you rush Bami's Fire, which adds a lot of dmg in trades, then either finish sunfire vs AD or get Spirit Visage vs AP.

A "heavy damage on-hit item", as you put it, would not be that helpful to Taric and would probably be TOO good on certain other champs (Renekton comes to mind).

Besides that, on hit items usually come with attack speed because, I dunno, you have to AUTO ATTACK to proc it? It just makes sense.

No math needed here.

Never been a huge fan of Titanic. Especially now that you have to build Knight's Vow. There's just no room for it.

Fondling GemsNov 17, 20161 votes

Really? When I play Taric top I build a Ravenous Hydra. Then I snag up my trinity and swifty boots just to ruin your day. Throw a spirit visage in and it is pretty damn funny how much you heal for.

SkiasNov 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UE2BI77B,comment-id=000300000000000100000003,timestamp=2016-11-17T05:36:16.398+0000)

Really? When I play Taric top I build a Ravenous Hydra. Then I snag up my trinity and swifty boots just to ruin your day. Throw a spirit visage in and it is pretty damn funny how much you heal for.

You end up made of paper though. Get out of position once and these ADCs and Assassins wreck you. Its about maximizing your armor and defense while having just enough damage to kill.

Fondling GemsNov 17, 20161 votes

I mean, you have your ult, stun, shield, and heal for a reason.

So long as you prep properly you aren't going to get blown up. IDK, I just find it really funny and cheese filled.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 16, 201631 votes

{quoted} Try to at least understand the situation before your reply.

I'm in a good mood so I'll try to enlight you somehow..

#EDIT

#LOL GETTING DOWNVOTES BECAUSE PPL CAN'T HANDLE TITANIC HYDRA IS SHIT ON LANING PHASE.. MATH HURTS NOW.. K

No ur getting them cuz ur being an ass

Unstoppable MonkNov 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UE2BI77B,comment-id=00030000000000010002,timestamp=2016-11-16T11:48:40.984+0000)

No ur getting them cuz ur being an ass

What if they just really, really, really hate the subject of completely unnecessary math? I mean really if that isn't worth at least half a downvote, I don't know what is.

TheHappyReaperzNov 16, 20161 votes

item 3025 item 3074 item 3100 item 3145 Provide on hit effects without AS

VerdadeNov 16, 20161 votes

Muramana man

TheHappyReaperzNov 16, 20162 votes

Knew I was forgetting something, ty.

ArcticblastNov 18, 20161 votes

The champions that usually want to build on-hit items are the ones that want to use a lot of auto attacks quickly, which allows them to constantly apply these on-hit effects in a short period of time. The on-hits often substitute building raw damage for these champions. Creating on-hit items that are appealing for tanks can never work out well because it gives a class that doesn't normally build lots of damage an appealing item that gives them extra damage. Titanic Hydra used to be a much stronger item, and it was nerfed for this very reason.

Titanic is still strong anyway, dude. Just use that. I know you said it's expensive, but a bunch of top laners rush Trinity Force, so I'm not sure why building an early Tiamat is such a big deal.

SkiasNov 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The champions that usually want to build on-hit items are the ones that want to use a lot of auto attacks quickly, which allows them to constantly apply these on-hit effects in a short period of time. The on-hits often substitute building raw damage for these champions. Creating on-hit items that are appealing for tanks can never work out well because it gives a class that doesn't normally build lots of damage an appealing item that gives them extra damage. Titanic Hydra used to be a much stronger item, and it was nerfed for this very reason.

Titanic is still strong anyway, dude. Just use that. I know you said it's expensive, but a bunch of top laners rush Trinity Force, so I'm not sure why building an early Tiamat is such a big deal.

He gets arguably more damage from the combination of Iceborn and Sunfire anyways and still gets tremendous wave clear.

LordGeovanniNov 18, 20161 votes

or better yet remove the attack speed cap on his passive so i can go back to buying wits end first item. Not that its gonna be as good as before his rework since he lose 2 damage spells/ utility spells and his passive is weaker damage

SkiasNov 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

or better yet remove the attack speed cap on his passive so i can go back to buying wits end first item. Not that its gonna be as good as before his rework since he lose 2 damage spells/ utility spells and his passive is weaker damage

Lmao what? You want to... Remove 100% attack speed from his kit to buy an inferior item without HP or Armor on it, his main scaling stats.

AptestNov 16, 20161 votes

TL;DR - please keep taric on the weak side.

Explanation: I _personally _ find Taric to be a boring champion. Old taric with the stun/shatter combo was also boring. I think he has 3 abilities that more or less do the same thing in varying levels of power and a stun that's so telegraphed he kinda needs to always use it from a more mobile team mate. this is my personal opinion and I respect the Taric players who like him as he is.

If Taric becomes a dominant pick, I'll have to play him. Because you don't just ignore a dominant pick in ranked. We've been already in a state where nobody wants to play Taric but hey he has 60% win rate so everybody plays Taric/Ez and Taric/Graves.

This is a parallel to "power without agency". If Taric is strong, I get power for doing things I dislike, and lose power for doing things I like. This makes the experience of the game badder, for me.

SkiasNov 16, 20162 votes

{quoted}

TL;DR - please keep taric on the weak side.

Explanation: I _personally _ find Taric to be a boring champion. Old taric with the stun/shatter combo was also boring. I think he has 3 abilities that more or less do the same thing in varying levels of power and a stun that's so telegraphed he kinda needs to always use it from a more mobile team mate. this is my personal opinion and I respect the Taric players who like him as he is.

If Taric becomes a dominant pick, I'll have to play him. Because you don't just ignore a dominant pick in ranked. We've been already in a state where nobody wants to play Taric but hey he has 60% win rate so everybody plays Taric/Ez and Taric/Graves.

This is a parallel to "power without agency". If Taric is strong, I get power for doing things I dislike, and lose power for doing things I like. This makes the experience of the game badder, for me.

I actually think Taric is one of the best reworks Riot has produced. I liked him before and now he's my favorite over Anivia. I'm sorry you feel compelled to only play top picks and can't rely on your mastery of a champ to best people.

AptestNov 16, 20161 votes

now now, don't nitpick. you know what i meant.

SkiasNov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

now now, don't nitpick. you know what i meant.

I don't really. I mean, you're saying that Taric being a top means you'd HAVE to play him. Which simply isn't true. He's got a 52 to 58% winrate now. He's just strong in the hands of people that have good timing in team fights. If that's not your play style, you shouldnt play him.

ShahamutNov 17, 20161 votes

Also, if he is strong, you could also ban him... so there is that too. "Have to play" is such a weak phrase in this game :P

Playing vs Faker? HAVE to BAN at least 2 of his champs :P This makes more sense #lawl

SkiasNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Also, if he is strong, you could also ban him... so there is that too. "Have to play" is such a weak phrase in this game :P

Playing vs Faker? HAVE to BAN at least 2 of his champs :P This makes more sense #lawl

Yeah, I totally don't get that.

SherogarthNov 16, 20162 votes

Repertoir, could you share with us reasoning behind Taric's low mana regen at lvl 1? He got the lowest value in the entire game (even lower than Lissandra).

Also if you could share what were other iterations of his ultimate during his rework, that would be great.

Sad TyrantNov 16, 20162 votes

didn't you or someone else say that you(Riot) were going to support the Alternative builds and play styles. If His late game is so good, shunt some of the power he has late game to his early, you know like... MANA

An increased heal when he is alone, like he used to. would be nice

and the OP's suggestion, is a very good idea and should be added again.

ModKnightsKemplarNov 16, 20163 votes

Taric feels SO GOOD to play right now. I am averaging 80% S rates with him (estimate) since preseason, and I'm loving every minute of it.

This is more of a personal note for you than a post for boards to read, but Taric was the first champ I really loved, and your update made him SOLID GOLD (especially now that he has knight's vow). Thanks for your work on that. Even close to a year after release, I maintain that it is best rework in League of Legends. So thanks for that. Great work.

And yeah, he doesn't need a buff. Not even close. I am scared of the nerf-bat currently.

SkiasNov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not Meddler, sorry, but can speak to this a bit.

Taric actually had this mechanic internally at various points, but we stripped it out in a general trimming pass along the way (mechanics tend to build up in kits, even into release sometimes).

Taric's early laning is pretty rough, and if we ever get a chance to help him out in that regard, that would be pretty nice. Early Mana costs especially seem to be a good opportunity, since he feels really constrained in that regard. That said, I'm not sure he's weak right now to the point that merits a buff. His late game especially is really strong.

Thank you so much for responding, I love having this insight. I think a lot of it is the curve that his Q mana costs increases vs how fast he can itemize mana. It is extremely punishing to level Q without 500 bonus mana or so. I definitely feel his overall performance is right where it should be, its just his early game is super rough, maybe tougher than it should be.

I don't think a small cost reduction would fling him into orbit, but you guys know best.

Thanks again for popping in!

Edit: is there a chance Righteous Glory will get a more attractive stat profile soon? I'd love to build Catalyst on Gem man, but all the final items feel bad on him in a build. If Righteous Glory had armor or something, it would definitely be far better.

Voluug13Nov 16, 20161 votes

How about a cost reduction if he is alone?

Top Taric could really use it.

SkiasNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How about a cost reduction if he is alone?

Top Taric could really use it.

Repetoir just mentioned they were willing to give him some help if they are able, but he's in a good spot for the most part. Which I can agree.

NineTailedMysticNov 16, 20162 votes

I would like buffs to improve his solo laning. His Q isn't worth leveling because of its insane mana cost as you level it, W has a rightfully high CD but limits his ability to trade without Q leveled, and E is the only skill worth maxing imo even though I like maxing W sometimes.

I still say give his spells more for being cast without a Bastion partner.

Baron PerenoldeNov 17, 20162 votes

He's strong, but he honestly feels pretty boring now. His ultimate sucks up all of the power budget of his kit, he doesn't have enough damaging abilities to solo top anymore (which you guys said you would support :( ), and he just feels... shallow? I'm not sure if that's the word for it, but it feels like he lost so much utility just to make his allies invincible for a couple of seconds. It's a shame, because Taric was one of my favorite champions to play and now I rarely feel like using him. Please save the Gem Knight, Rep.

SkiasNov 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Perenolde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UE2BI77B,comment-id=00030009,timestamp=2016-11-17T07:24:29.074+0000)

He's strong, but he honestly feels pretty boring now. His ultimate sucks up all of the power budget of his kit, he doesn't have enough damaging abilities to solo top anymore (which you guys said you would support :( ), and he just feels... shallow? I'm not sure if that's the word for it, but it feels like he lost so much utility just to make his allies invincible for a couple of seconds. It's a shame, because Taric was one of my favorite champions to play and now I rarely feel like using him. Please save the Gem Knight, Rep.

He can solo top just fine and his utility is right. His sustain is a bit low mana-wise, but that's all he needs is a cost adjustment.

Baron PerenoldeNov 18, 20161 votes

I guess I'm just used to how powerful Shatter was. It gave me the option of either passively aiding my allies with the armor aura, or I could give a small amount of burst and armor shred when it was time to all-in. Now? Walk up to stun, smack the enemy twice... Yay?

SkiasNov 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Perenolde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UE2BI77B,comment-id=0003000900000000,timestamp=2016-11-18T01:17:17.427+0000)

I guess I'm just used to how powerful Shatter was. It gave me the option of either passively aiding my allies with the armor aura, or I could give a small amount of burst and armor shred when it was time to all-in. Now? Walk up to stun, smack the enemy twice... Yay?

That was sort of his old problem too. He got hammered with nerfs whenever he was relevant bot because he was braindead to play. You literally couldn't miss any portion of his kit. He was far too reliable when good, and crap when even slightly weak. No one realizes how unsustainable his old kit was.

Edit: The sound effects and feel of really getting Bravado going with 40% cdr is so visceral to me. I've gotten triple kills just blasting people with chain stuns and bravado. I love it.

Zach SandwhichNov 15, 20164 votes

I like the idea, gives good skill ceiling to people who can chain Bravado really well too!

SkiasNov 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I like the idea, gives good skill ceiling to people who can chain Bravado really well too!

Thanks, man. I've played a ton of Taric, gotten mastery 7 and I've got almost 300k mastery with him. Took him to gold. This is the one spot that I think he could be rounded off to make his Q less punishing to level up. The costs would still be super high if you just try and sit back to heal with it. This would make it cheaper if you are using it in its intended combat condition.

Fondling GemsNov 15, 20167 votes

Son I am disappointed in you. A true Taric main would stay at mastery 6, because the colour has better synergy with his skins. It is all about beauty after all.

(I'm just fucking with you.)

SkiasNov 16, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UE2BI77B,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-15T22:33:34.704+0000)

Son I am disappointed in you. A true Taric main would stay at mastery 6, because the colour has better synergy with his skins. It is all about beauty after all.

(I'm just fucking with you.)

Problem was, I couldn't stop getting S grades being a huge man up top. I'm sorry. I'll climb the mountain again.

Fondling GemsNov 16, 20161 votes

Please son, if there wasn't a cap on tokens I would have like 10, I just never combine them into rank 7 lol.

Unstoppable MonkNov 17, 20161 votes

Maybe you just like Taric's face in your inventory,

If you know what I mean.

Fondling GemsNov 17, 20161 votes

Now see, I am going to make a border skin for my HUD in LoL, and it is going to be Taric themed. I could make the inventory look like his face but then I could never buy items.