Turrets now deal true damage

Theorchero·Dec 15, 2016·43 votes·2,202 views

Boom, half of league's problems solved.

Turrets should be bastions of defense that need to be sieged. You should not be able to dive a turret without a well thought plan on how to execute it.

As of now if you buy one armor item you can tank like 10 shots and still be above half health. This means that enemies that build a mix of damage and defense (either through builds like triforce-tank or bruiser items like black cleaver) can just tank and murder you under your turret repeatedly, and the only time they are ever punished is if you can land a long lasting form of cc so the turret has time to build up damage.

Even then, tanks don't give a fuck about turret shots until the 4th or 5th shot most of the time. If turrets are going to be so weak to siege that baron minions can destroy them by themselves then they at least need to be damn good at defending against dives early.

39 Comments

KVbqbFsC8eDec 15, 201618 votes

They are bastions of defense in the early game. After that though, its your job to protect the turrets.

doublelift fgDec 15, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vlwvZbLN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-15T08:40:11.119+0000)

its your job to protect the turrets.

isn't their job to protect us? not saying it's wrong or anything i'm just asking

RalanrDec 15, 20169 votes

Early game yes. Mid to late it switches. Turning it to true damage doesn't actually stop tanky people from diving you. And making it %health true damage only encourages squishies to dive.

DanjengDec 15, 20162 votes

But usually it's the tanks taking turret aggro, so % hp works out. If it's the squishies soaking up damage, the tank is probably doing something wrong.

RalanrDec 15, 20164 votes

If it's %health true damage than it does basically the same amount of damage to whoever it is hitting, no matter their health pool.

DanjengDec 15, 20162 votes

Still a bad idea to let the carry soak up that damage. Also, the % true damage could be added alongside the current base damage.

You wouldn't let a master yi who does % hp attack your squishies would you? Of course not, because he does a flat amount too with his AD stat.

Turrets could do the same thing % and a flat.

RalanrDec 15, 20163 votes

Except %health true damage on towers is just a bad idea.

DanjengDec 15, 20162 votes

Why? Saying something is bad doesn't make an argument at all.

RalanrDec 15, 20161 votes

I've already brought up my point. It encourages squishy champions to dive because they can better count how many shots they can take.

You said that this is bad if you're letting your squishies dive, meaning you're thinking about after the laning phase. The problem this is trying to fix is early laning diving, which this only makes worse because suddenly Riven being squishy isn't a concern when diving.

StarboyˇDec 16, 20161 votes

turrets doing more damage encourages squishies to dive?

RalanrDec 16, 20162 votes

No, this wouldn't have the turrets do more damage. It would do a set amount of damage that isn't mitigated. You could better count how many shots it would take to kill you.

Tanks and other durable champions have the advantage to dive because they can shrug off more damage than your average champion.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 16, 20164 votes

% hp damage would let the Vayne take as much damage as a Sion. Normally, a Vayne would not tower dive at all. She'd be murdered instantly almost. She would have to wait for her Sion jungler to come and help by tanking it. If they did % hp damage she wouldn't have to wait, she could just tank it herself.

DanjengDec 16, 20161 votes

Also, the % true damage could be added alongside the current base damage.

Meaning it's the live damage + %hp damage. Vayne sure as hell can't tank the current turrets. What makes you think she can tank it now + and added % hp damage too.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 16, 20161 votes

This is a clusterfuck of comments and a lot are hidden under a "read more" tab. Since that wasn't in the comment that I replied to, it's not really fair to expect me to have seen it. She can't tank the towers now, which was the point, that after the % hp change she would be able to. Anyway why add % hp damage to the current damage? That just seems arbitrary and confusing. If you click on a tower you can see how much damage it'll do. You wouldn't be able to do that if you need to calculate two totally different types of damage.

Tower dives also need to be a thing, you can't make them impossible. I agree towers feel weak but there's a good balance in there someone between too strong and too weak. I just don't think this would push it to a healthy spot.

Zen FuryDec 16, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vlwvZbLN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-15T08:40:11.119+0000)

They are bastions of defense in the early game. After that though, its your job to protect the turrets.

Early game. Sure, if by early game you mean before level 3. Towers are not a bastion of defense, period. They are far too weak to be considered defense. If I'm solo support under a tower and I see three enemy champs heading my way regardless of level, I run because I know that tower isn't going to do squat to protect me.

Sona PingDec 15, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Boom, half of league's problems solved.

Turrets should be bastions of defense that need to be sieged. You should not be able to dive a turret without a well thought plan on how to execute it.

As of now if you buy one armor item you can tank like 10 shots and still be above half health. This means that enemies that build a mix of damage and defense (either through builds like triforce-tank or bruiser items like black cleaver) can just tank and murder you under your turret repeatedly, and the only time they are ever punished is if you can land a long lasting form of cc so the turret has time to build up damage.

Even then, tanks don't give a fuck about turret shots until the 4th or 5th shot most of the time. If turrets are going to be so weak to siege that baron minions can destroy them by themselves then they at least need to be damn good at defending against dives early.

First things first: League already has some of the strongest turrets in the genre. I don't know of any game which League's turrets don't beat. Like HotS turrets run out of ammo!

Turrets are not "bastions of defense" and they are not supposed to be. Because this is an objective based PvP game, and turrets are the objectives that the players are supposed to defend, not the other way around. The "bomb" does not defend the player, nor does the "hill" defend them.

SaiannaDec 15, 20165 votes

League already has some of the strongest turrets in the genre.

League has also one of the greatest damage power creeps in genre too. Which totally nulls each other.

Turrets are not "bastions of defense" and they are not supposed to be.

They supposed to be bastions of defense for laning phase. It's hard calling them that when after successful gank lvl 4 you can destroy turret in half a minute

Btw Turrets used to be few times better simply because there wasn't that much of powercreep and turrets weren't nerfed yet

Sona PingDec 15, 20164 votes

{quoted}

League has also one of the greatest damage power creeps in genre too. Which totally nulls each other.

[citation needed]

Also, no it doesn't "nulls each other". Please reread the context in which the post was made and the post itself.

NoblewindDec 15, 20162 votes

Damage isn't the issue to me, it's the health of the turrets. They go down like they're made of butter to a lot of champs and sometimes the window of counterplay feels as small as the window you have vs. a fed assassin's full combo as a squishy. Some champs can take out half or more of their health in the time it takes you to channel a Teleport.

This also makes turrets rarely feel like contested objectives like dragon or baron. Typically defending your turrets means little more than stalling their inevitable takedown, even when there are even numbers on both sides of the siege because the ones attacking poke it down with a dozen ranged auto attacks. It's too easy.

ValeckseraiDec 15, 20162 votes

I remember the game where I got fed as a Tahm Kench in top lane, like, REALLY fed. Ended up being able to just sit under their inhib turret for a good twenty seconds licking it to death with their Akali on top of me as well. And I lived by just walking away casually once the turret died. Waited for warmongs and e passive to heal me to full hp, did it again at a different turret. It was hilarious, but at the same time really sad that I was able to get away with that with literally no minions or allies helping me at all. If the Akali from that game is reading this, I'm sorry, because that must have been a very anti fun match.

Rito, buff turrets, that shit should never be possible.

Big LincolnDec 15, 20162 votes

this would make every non-siege comp worthless

HyperiönDec 15, 20162 votes

Not really, it would just make sieging difficult, and force them to direct time other places and set traps.

Ultimate DeadpooDec 15, 20162 votes

Honestly, I think each turret should get progressively stronger. Outer turrets stay the same, inner turrets are like 10% better in every way then the outer turrets. Inhibitor turrets are 10% better in every way than the inner turrets. And nexus turrets are 10% better in every way than the inhibitor turrets. I think this would be a fair and balanced way to improve turrets.

ParoeDec 15, 20162 votes

You know in dota 2 the towers are about as powerful as they are in league. Beefier for sure because of how dota defenses work, but they have two things that league doesnt;

Dota 2 towers attack VERY fast compared to league towers, making them clear waves much faster and punish dives much better.
Dota 2 towers have two ranges: Lock-on range which is about the size of league tower range and effective range which is TWICE the size of leagues tower range.

SirLapseDec 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You know in dota 2 the towers are about as powerful as they are in league. Beefier for sure because of how dota defenses work, but they have two things that league doesnt;

Dota 2 towers attack VERY fast compared to league towers, making them clear waves much faster and punish dives much better.

Dota 2 towers have two ranges: Lock-on range which is about the size of league tower range and effective range which is TWICE the size of leagues tower range.

What a coincidence, DoTA2 endgame towers are even more useless than League's endgame to the point where carries ignore them. Very much arguable to say that late game a tower is not meant to defend you. Thank you good sir.

To the OP, towers dealing true damage doesn't solve a darn thing. Early game towers are still effective, the issue I'm seeing is that super minions are like that abusive boyfriend that gets away with beating his gf, the gf being nexus towers in this case. Since minions are HP tanks and don't really have high armor, that true damage buff would only serve to prevent tower dives, which we already had a (very) slow meta for.

Zen FuryDec 16, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Early game towers are still effective...

With a chainvest on a level 3 Leona, I can basically park my ass under the enemy's turret. I don't really call that effective.

SirLapseDec 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zen Fury,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vlwvZbLN,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2016-12-16T18:36:33.260+0000)

With a chainvest on a level 3 Leona, I can basically park my ass under the enemy's turret. I don't really call that effective.

That's you investing in an early chain vest, not the tower itself doing something wrong. Most supports don't exactly rush the item either. If you can show me some high elo people that actually gain success off of skipping Sightstone and Relic Shield upgrade with success, then please do. Rushing Chain Vest just means putting off other items.

AtheosisXDec 15, 20162 votes

No thanks. I just want turret damage to ramp up harder.

Yosuke ApperuDec 15, 20161 votes

I feel as though they should make towers take less damage from your attacks if no other nearby ally champions are nearby you. I can't stand losing a game just because the opponent has better split push than your team. Some like it, I however don't. What's that? I lost lane? I'll just split push til the end of time! :D

TheorcheroDec 15, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I feel as though they should make towers take less damage from your attacks if no other nearby ally champions are nearby you. I can't stand losing a game just because the opponent has better split push than your team. Some like it, I however don't. What's that? I lost lane? I'll just split push til the end of time! :D

This isn't a horrible idea, but it would make champions like Tryndamere useless because they can't really teamfight.

The problem I have with turrets is that baron buff and mountain drakes just makes you melt through them, and while they are like tissue paper they also can't even THIN the wave that's ripping it apart. And god forbid if someone with 2.5k hp and 300 armor decides to tank it and dive. They'll get out alive with 60% hp even if they tanked the turret way longer than they should have been reasonably able to.

TheTrueQuarianDec 15, 20161 votes

It would just make it so he's not at your inhib after leaving lane for 30 seconds.

ZerenzaDec 16, 20161 votes

Well riot stated that with champs like Tryndamere and Aatrox (classic AA split pusher's) that they keep them in a neutered state because their playstyle isn't healthy. And if at anytime those champions become heavily contested picks they would need to nerf them even harder so that's one of the reasons they want to rework the class as whole.

I think it would be great to increase the constitutions of the turrets especially in bot lane.

Yosuke ApperuDec 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This isn't a horrible idea, but it would make champions like Tryndamere useless because they can't really teamfight.

The problem I have with turrets is that baron buff and mountain drakes just makes you melt through them, and while they are like tissue paper they also can't even THIN the wave that's ripping it apart. And god forbid if someone with 2.5k hp and 300 armor decides to tank it and dive. They'll get out alive with 60% hp even if they tanked the turret way longer than they should have been reasonably able to.

Let's not forget that super minions have 4k hp and just completely demolish towers as they tank them. Not to mention squishy supports will get wrecked by them.

IcyPepperDec 15, 20161 votes

Why not just do more damage?

True damage, either flat or scaling, are going to negate a good portion of people's builds. Flat would either tickle tanks or instantly blow up squishies proportionally, or both squishies and tanks would be hit equally and thus make tanks less effective divers as squishy assassins are punished nearly as much. Tanks should be able to soak more damage from towers, but it shouldn't necessarily be a death sentence for squishies either as long as they don't overstay their welcome.

More damage, or more damage ramping would be appreciated, but I think true damage would go too far.

Lord DesertDec 15, 20161 votes

Im not settled on the true dmg, but stronger turrets are better! Here if you want a more indepth look at some math behind turrets and why they are abysmaly weak currently: SummonersLab, Part 3: Tower Changes Feedback and more ideas are appreciated! :D

Athenes LuluDec 16, 20161 votes

We need smarter turrets, not just more powerful ones.

King OdinDec 16, 20161 votes

I think the Nexus towers should deal true damage but other than that I don't think it would be smart making a mage with item 3116 item 3027 item 3151 as effective at tanking as a normal tank with only 1-2 health items.