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Why isn't squishiness/immobility considered counterplay?

DynamiteGazelle··117 votes·5,152 views

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the Veigar stun delay in the name of 'unfair' and 'counterplay'.

Ya, maybe he can 100 to 0 someone under the right conditions, but he has absolutely 0 mobility and extreme squishiness to make up for it. Why isn't Leblanc or Zed punished for their 100-to-0-ness when they both have extreme mobility in addition to their damage, and don't rely on efficient farming to gain their burst either.

Anytime I get bursted by Veigar I feel like i deserved it because the counterplay opportunities are there. I could always have baited his stun/double-teamed him/built mr/shut down his farm to counter him. Meanwhile LB and Zed have the same strengths with less weaknesses but they don't have to pay for their power. (although to be fair LB was nerfed and only recently rediscovered)

Not only that, but Veigar's core item is removed and he is...nerfed to make up for it? Because he's the problem child? It must be because of his overwhelming presence in LCS/pro level, right? Oh, that's also Leblance and Zed?

GG Rito

PS - This isn't supposed to be a Zed/Leblanc rage thread as personally I don't have too much of a problem with them theoretically. I just want to point out the extreme inconsistencies in the logic of Riot's indiscriminate nerf bat. I'm also not liking the EVERYTHING IS SKILLSHOTZ direction things seem to be taking because things like squishiness and lack of mobility don't seem to be enough 'counterplay' for riot.

Veigar

105 Comments

KING OF MASKS15 votes

I completely agree when you say that getting blown up by Veigar never feels unfair.

Strawberrycocoa3 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vjFnz4h5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-20T07:49:41.093+0000)

I completely agree when you say that getting blown up by Veigar never feels unfair.

Unrelated, but I love that you named yourself after King of Masks. RIP Dawngate.

Baron of Bread15 votes

I agree that Viegar already had plenty of counterplay. If you caught him by surprise or just stayed out of his rather short damage range you were fine. It wasn't "dodge his Q," but it was there and reasonable.

The change to his stun does add something good (from my perspective), being that even if you have less range than him you can go for him and have a chance of not being insta-gibbed. However, I also think that the delay is probably a little longer than it should be. If he catches you off guard, you should be dead. Considering if you did that to him he would die nigh instantaneously, he should do that to others.

Reazale2 votes

if Veigar isnt fed , almost any champ inside his E will be able to kill Veigar if he is not stunned, doesnt matter long or short range. If Veigar is fed , the stun is just like a gap closer :P

Kitten of Evil9 votes

I would add that Riot doesn't seem to view map awareness or positioning as counterplay. Probably because that's something that has to be learned, not simply leveled-up or bought at the store.

The Soulforged3 votes

Buying things is counter-building, playing a certain way to counter x is counterplaying. Positioning is counterplay, buying qss is counterbuilding. I don't know why riot thinks these things that are essential to the game are not counted.

Kahti2 votes

Except you have to actively use QSS so it is counterplay.

SmokingPuffin5 votes

Anytime I get bursted by Veigar I feel like i deserved it because the counterplay opportunities are there.

Counterplay to Veigar is only available in a strategic sense. His core damage pattern is too reliable and too long ranged for tactical outplays to be a thing. Riot loves tactical outplays; the unreliability of kill attempts is what makes the game retain its interest even with fed champs on the board.

Veigar is really obnoxious when he's ahead. In that context, the counterplay is basically "you should have done something about him earlier". This is more of a DotA vision of counterplay than a League one.

Why isn't Leblanc or Zed punished for their 100-to-0-ness when they both have extreme mobility in addition to their damage

LeBlanc lost her reliable silence because it didn't offer enough counterplay. Basically the same reasoning as with Veigar. At first she sucked. Then Riot gave her some QoL buffs over time and now she's back. Pretty much what Veigar players should hope for.

I get that people are unhappy right now, and it's probably justifiable because Riot didn't deliver the message on Veigar very well. People were expecting buffs to compensate for DFG loss, and instead they got a rework where Veigar's best tool got nerfed. However, I think this is good news -- Veigar E is what was holding him back; that button being so powerful meant that the rest of his kit had to be sent to purgatory.

A year from now, I think Veigar will be better than he has been since season 1.

KaelTheGreat10 votes

Veigar is really obnoxious when he's ahead. In that context, the counterplay is basically "you should have done something about him earlier". This is more of a DotA vision of counterplay than a League one.

Implying Veigar is the only champ who does well when fed? lol.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

Compare a more approved-to-be-strong mid laner. Let's say Ahri, she's been pretty amazing lately. When Ahri gets ahead, she's super scary. But she's super scary in a beatable way. You can make her miss Q and E. You can force her to blow R to escape a gank. You can predict where she's going to R and catch her out. Her effective range is short enough that you have safe chances to use long ranged abilities.

With Veigar, his E cooldown is low enough that it will be up all the time. The only reason he might miss E is because he played bad, not because you outplayed him. The stun range is longer than almost every champion's effective range. Once he lands E, you are either blowing a 90+ second cooldown or you're dead. Feels bad man.

Basically, Veigar E was so reliable that he wasn't allowed to have any chance in serious play. If he ever became a thing, they would nerf him. Hopefully, this E nerf makes it unreliable enough that he could be viable someday.

KaelTheGreat13 votes

You can dodge his stun, or bait out his stun just like you claimed for Ahri. Also, the charm cooldown "is low enough that it will be up all the time" too. Once Ahri lands charm, or Xerath lands stun, or Lux or morg land snare or Zed presses R, you have to burn flash or "a 90+ second cooldown" or else you die. Veigar is not unique in this way. Also, while Veigar's stun range might be large, his QR range are not long at all. His stun allows for him A CHANCE to get close enough. Also, Veigar is mostly single target, which Ahri isn't, but Ahri still has insta-gib potential. If anything, Veigar should be buffed.

SmokingPuffin5 votes

You can dodge his stun

You don't dodge Veigar stun. It has no travel time. It's entirely up to him whether you're hit or not hit. This is basically the problem with Veigar.

bait out his stun just like you claimed for Ahri.

I don't recall saying this. That is an opportunity for Veigar to misplay, not for Veigar's opponent to outplay.

Once Ahri lands charm, or Xerath lands stun, or Lux or morg land snare or Zed presses R, you have to burn flash or "a 90+ second cooldown" or else you die.

The first four examples here are all line skillshots with travel times. The counterplay happens before they land.

With Zed R, there are plenty of ways to solve that problem. Some of them involve long cooldowns, but not all, and it's fine in any case because Zed R is also a long cooldown. Honestly the Zed QQ on this board has gotten way out of proportion to his actual strength in game.

If anything, Veigar should be buffed.

Veigar does need buffs to be balanced. The problem is that a balanced Veigar has low-counterplay play patterns, which isn't healthy for the game. That's why E is getting that delay and Q is becoming a skillshot. The E change is pretty much all downside for Veigar, but the Q is going to be awesome.

I kind of expect that he sucks in 5.4, but will see buffs in future patches and might even be healthy enough to see Riot let him be played competitively.

El Seibzehn2 votes

See while I hate the E change to Veigar with a passion, I wouldn't if they did it in a different way. It was really poorly done. I personally wouldn't have minded and would not be qqing alot if they changed his stun to a skill shot. That delay is stupid easy to dodge and if he can't land that then there is no point to using his W since it will not hit. I also wouldn't have minded if they changed his W to compensate and make the W more reliable because I feel like he has a huge damage W with the lowest reliability in the game while he also has an extremely high reliability stun to compensate for that weakness. They buffed his Q to make up for the reliability drop in his E but that doesn't matter because that doesn't fix his core problem of W reliability being way too high. Q farming now might be fun now but really it's going to feel so binary to play him now. Did I poke enemy down with Q enough to one shot with R...if yes then ult, if no, keep poking because in a 1v1 situation your E doesn't matter for your Q or R.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

[{quoted}](name=El Seibzehn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vjFnz4h5,comment-id=000b00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-20T22:24:11.911+0000)

See while I hate the E change to Veigar with a passion, I wouldn't if they did it in a different way. It was really poorly done. I personally wouldn't have minded and would not be qqing alot if they changed his stun to a skill shot. That delay is stupid easy to dodge and if he can't land that then there is no point to using his W since it will not hit.

This is an interesting feedback. How would your proposed skillshot version work? I'm having a hard time visualizing how it would work with the rest of his kit.

I also wouldn't have minded if they changed his W to compensate and make the W more reliable because I feel like he has a huge damage W with the lowest reliability in the game while he also has an extremely high reliability stun to compensate for that weakness.

I very much expect W reliability buffs in 5.5 or 5.6, because that button feels pretty sad with unreliable E. I think it would be interesting if W were more like Xerath W.

it's going to feel so binary to play him now. Did I poke enemy down with Q enough to one shot with R...if yes then ult, if no, keep poking because in a 1v1 situation your E doesn't matter for your Q or R.

I think it is quite undesirable for Veigar's laning play patterns to rely on him landing E. Much better that he should be able to lane effectively without ever landing one.

Note that I'm not saying that Veigar in 5.4 can effectively lane without landing Es; this is more a statement of design intent.

Reazale2 votes

He is less likely to be able to LANE with those changes, mobility will beat his is stun , and that is his defense ,he now lacks defense in lane. It is way harder to poke , u will need to spam more Q and thats more mana (cos it can be missed/dodge), and we all know how good mana regen is right now. U will be barely able to use E-W in ur harass pattern cos its a ton of mana (it still is , only late game mana buff LOOOOOL, i didnt pay attention to those , so shity lol) and is no longer reliable. R nerfs (why the fuck , really would u nerf the Ap ratio instead of the enemy Ap ratio is beyond me) means he takes more time to reach a point in which he can burst u down. Not only did he get reliability nerfs , but also dmg nerfs , i hope we are getting like 30% more ap from Q on early game or u can kiss Veigar goodbye.

And what did we get? better q farming , cos buffing and pidgeonholing Veigar in the most boring pattern is the way to go (focusing on Q farming is 1 of the 2 fallback patterns , the other is mostly deleted {max cdr for E and teamfights}).

Mandang04 votes

Because when an assassin spams their dashes to kill you and get out, it wasn't the fact that your immobility is being counterplayed, it's that they pulled off an "outplay". #LC$BIGPLAY$

Saminus Maximus4 votes

Having actually played Veigar on pbe, and him being the first champ i ever main'd here are my thoughts.

The Q change feels nice. Like really really nice. Smart positioning in lane for a mixture of double stacks and single stack - poke is rewarded and very satisfying to pull off. You may miss a few times when trading but for the most part its fairly reliable, while the increased range makes going for stacks safer.

W...Not going to lie its near useless as it is. Nearly everyone can dodge it, if not cc'd before hand. While the lower mana cost and cd are nice at the moment W is just that thing you throw out in a teamfight and hope it hits.

E-All laning safety viegar has ever had is now gone. Dont even try to combo someone with this since they'll just walk into it or out of it depending on its position and proceed to tear you a new asshole. If you get ganked and you dont have flash you're dead no questions asked. If your jungler is ganking pray they have some form of ranged cc because you are not landing this on anyone half decent who has any form of mobility. That being said in teamfights it may be weaker than it is on live but its still really good at zoning people out of the fight due to its sheer size.

R - Same as on live. Bonus ap from q stacks for a good veigar will cancel out the ratio nerfs, while the reduced mana late game is always nice if minor.

All in all in his current state veigar has two usefull spells in lane and 0 safety. He is literally a q r bot for the majority of the game, and with all this talk of counterplay atm veigar has literally no way of counterplaying the current assassin meta. Before the changes someone jumps you, you stun them fast enough you get to live and back away. Now you just die, return to farming and pray you reach late game before your team gets repeatedly aced by the snowballing mid lane.

qetzel3 votes

Squishyness and immobility are weaknessess that can be exploited for counterplay. They themselves are not counterplay.

I believe that, as Veigar could stun you and burst you with no chance for retaliation, these are not sufficient.

Were the stun used as intended (a cage, not immediate) they would be sufficient, but, alas, it is not the case.

Direwolfiez4 votes

Then actually make the cage a CAGE that works with the rest of his kit, instead of a circle of meh-ness that required your target to be stunned so they wouldn't insta-burst you back.

ArcanistBomber3 votes

Rito really needs to stop and think about what they are doing. I mean, they are making Morde (a champ with no built in cc) "able to be kited" when he already lost his key item just like Veigar. And it wasn't even like our evil little yordle was even that popular in the first place. So to all my fellow master of evil mains, I'm sorry item 3070

LoLKiru3 votes

To be fair, Morde could already be kited. His changes would've been good for him in theory; if he actually had a way to stick to his enemies (which is likely why every change he got was reverted; leading him to just being straight up buffed)

KaisadiIIa3 votes

Veigar is one of this champions that you have to outsmart instead of outplay. RIOT doesn't like strategy and RIOT doesn't like outsmarting. RIOT wants this game to be all about skill and outplays. That's the sad truth.

MrPerson102 votes

No counterplay to Zed/LB? please..item 3157 item 3140 Kayle Lissandra What's next, no counter to Kat? hard CC > kat.

There's enough going against mobile assassins already, and to add to that they have zero utility.

Leti the Yeti36 votes

oh waao, shit that counters everyone? item 3140 who woulda thought this works on veigar too!

MrPerson1010 votes

Who woulda thought, if you walk into his snare you deserve to die.

VardenSalad4 votes

...you think you don't?

MrPerson103 votes

I'm saying you do.

VardenSalad40 votes

Deserve to die for terribly mispositioning against a burst mage?

Do you think you should die 1v1-ing a fed Kha in the jungle?

Do you think you should die getting caught by Cassiopeia?

Do you think Ahri landing a charm to start a full combo should kill you?

Do you think 1v1-ing a fed Jax is something you should live through?

Then why the fuck should you expect to live making a shit-tier strategic decision against a champ who formerly existed solely to blow up the squishy idiots who got into range?

You don't play a tank? Then you fucking die when you position like shit. When did this change?

MrPerson107 votes

First, you need to calm the fuck down. Second, yes - you dreadfully misposition against a burst mage early, it'll hurt. You do it late, you die because you didn't learn the first time. Should you die from isolating Kha? Yes, you were stupid enough to be isolated and not run/ping for help. Ahri no longer 100-0s you until late game with her charm unless she's right fed. Regardless of fed or not, you never stay and trade with a Jax. Common knowledge.

You're literally just backing up what I'm saying - you position like shit, you die. You get caught out? you die. You don't want to die? Grab a Zhonya's. Oh, but he can just sit there and wait for you to come out of it to kill you. Yep, that's a thing. Zed's effective not because of your positioning but rather that he can come from a side, flash/ult you and you die without it. He can flash/ult you from the front if he wants. There are mechanics to prevent that.

VardenSalad4 votes

I'm terribly confused. Your QSS reply was insinuating that QSS does not equally fuck over Veigar like it fucks over other champs. The poster before you was stating that other champions have more safe fallback play patterns than Veigar does.

I think we agreed on the "shit positioning = death" thing.

MrPerson102 votes

I said if you walk into his snare, you deserve to die. It's a massive circle and it's rare to find a veigar who can position it on your face perfectly every time.

You don't walk into a Zed ult, You simply dispell it with item 3140

Kobila20005 votes

How retarded are Veigars you play against? It's an instant cc. If you can't catch anybody with it, you're officially too incompetent to be playing this game.

MrPerson101 votes

He's also one of the the most immobile burst mage, along with Malzahar and friends.

You rely on people coming in range, dropping E on their face and full combo while they're stunned.

Kobila20004 votes

I play Viktor. His stun not only is much lower in range, but also takes 1,5 sec to go off. Stunning with Veigar felt like a breeze in comparison.

Salzigorimando2 votes

In fairness, Viktor's stun also slows into the stun....

Kobila20002 votes

A pretty crappy slow until late-game. If Veigar knows what he's doing you really have no way to avoid his stun and it'll last a hell of a lot longer than Viktor's. Meanwhile try getting anyone with mobility or flash to stay still in your field. Ever played vs Riven as Viktor? I don't think I've ever managed to stun her. LB? Zed? Ahri? Hahahaha!

Reazale1 votes

If u can keep the ult on the target viktor has way higher ratios plus Viktor has more utility in general and higher usable aoe.

Kobila20002 votes

Pffft, yeah, good luck getting anyone to stay in his ult for 7 seconds on a regular basis. Even walking away from it is easy, let alone flashing or any other kind of insane mobility. A slow and a 1,5 sec aoe stun in one are better than a 2,5 sec aoe stun? I'd like some of what you're smoking.

The only thing you said right is Vik has better aoe. He isn't that good at bursting single targets while Veigar has trouble in teamfights. This is not Viktor's advantage, he's simply specialized for a different thing than Veigar.

Civil Dawn7 votes

..

KaelTheGreat5 votes

THANK GOD SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS. Zed has no counterplay because the only two items that can be used against him, are GOOD AGAINST LITERALLY EVERY CHAMP IN THE GAME.

Troy24262117 votes

So your idea of counterplay is:

  1. Play one of two champions, hoping that you picked after the Zed pick
  2. Purchase an MR item to counter an AD assassin
  3. Purchase an item that only benefits AP champions

I hope you see the problem with that. If I walked into Veigar, didn't CC him and didn't burst him, AND am not tanky, I deserved to get bursted. That's how it works.

Eeyore3 votes

-timidly puts hands up to admit he buys Zhonya's on AD champions versus Vi and Zed-

ZephyrDrake8 votes

{quoted}

No counterplay to Zed/LB? please..item 3157 item 3140 Kayle Lissandra What's next, no counter to Kat? hard CC > kat.

There's enough going against mobile assassins already, and to add to that they have zero utility.

well according to your logic nothing is broken since you can just hard cc/Zhonias/Kayle ult everything...

KaelTheGreat3 votes

Also, according to that, every champ sucks because they can just be stunned or Kayle R can stop them from killing someone lol. Also, CC is worthless because QSS. Don't even bother with any cc champs because #Counterplay

trexmixG2 votes

its bc veigar, in addition to having insane burst, has a huge ass stun which dominates teamfights.

zed and lb barely have any cc. LB's e isnt really that good.

Father Cthulhu2 votes

zed and lb barely have any cc. LB's e isnt really that good.

You're brain dead. It's a skillshot morgana ulti, almost. For an assassin, she has some of the BEST cc.

trexmixG3 votes

Lets see... Morgana's ult-

can hit up to 5 targets. Does not need to hit a skillshot.

Leblanc's E-

hits one, provided LB can land a skillshot.

At best, LB's E can help you get a pick.

Morg's ult can be gamechanging. Please dont compare the two.

Reazale2 votes

Veigar has a huge ass stun which CAN dominate teamfights Leblanc can move up to 1200 units (2400 if she ports back) and i dont think Zed is that far away from those. Both have more dmg than Veigar during all early and probably mid game (Zed has ad rabadon and leblanc has a 3.7ap ratio if she lands her full single target optimal combo vs 2.8 on Veigar live.....) You know what those 2 can do in skirmishes? or how good is their roaming compared to Veigar? on half his matchups , he cant follow their midlaner on a direct path cos if he cross them and they arent at 75% hp or less , he wont be able to win a fight.

Gunpoint2 votes

Not to mention Veigar doesn't have "Farming for preschoolers" passive like Zed does.

Saminus Maximus2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vjFnz4h5,comment-id=001700000000,timestamp=2015-02-21T13:20:52.053+0000)

Well then again... when Veigar farms with Q.... what does veigar have left to fight the enemy with? W probably won't land without E and E probably won't land/stun... so before level 6 you pretty much have nothing??

Pretty much although Veigar has historically been very weak early game anyway, the changes make him even more so.

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vjFnz4h5,comment-id=00160001,timestamp=2015-02-21T13:33:03.348+0000)

If Veigar is so impossible to play against 1v1 by anyone in range and his cage is insane in teamfights... why wouldn't he be played in high levels and professional games I wonder? Well... he saw a couple of games as a support I think? But that pretty much makes his Q/W useless and makes him a stun bot on a long cooldown

The biggest problem with the rework is the "reworked" E is that it makes it impossible to land W which reduces Veigar's damage potential and well it does also reduce his safety quite a bit... there is no reason whatsoever to use the "reworked" E offensively as it doesn't accomplish much if anything... maybe if you get a gank...

Because he has defined hard counters while the pro scene generally likes to take generalists that work in every situation if at all possible. Unless they're doing a specific team comp they'll play the champions that have the least counters. Veigar definitely has hard counters, one of which is a certain ad assassin that this board loves to qq about. Problem with the changes is that its made the lanes that veigar counters worse because of his q poke, while making the lanes that counter viegar worse by removing his one defense mechanism against mobile champions.

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vjFnz4h5,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2015-02-21T13:55:32.196+0000)

It is not twice as fast unless you only got half the wave with the current Q... which certainly isn't the case... as with level/rank 5 Q it has a short enough cooldown that you can pretty much get the entire wave if you have enough mana which you likely will have mid game Early game its slightly faster, about 1.5 times the speed. Late game yea it pretty much is twice as fast actually, since at that point it can one shot minions.

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