Boards›Gameplay

Why was Nidalee made a jungle god when other jungle only champions can't compete at a basic level?

DynamiteGazelle··84 votes·6,083 views

Nidalee can literally be played in any position - top, mid, support, and can adc not terribly, and they buff her to have a 2 second cc on jungle creatures now too? While at the same time champions like Evelynn who can literally only be effective in the jungle are struggling to keep up. Instead of fixing the existing Eves and the Elises, they decide to just pull this random powerful mechanic out of thin air and give it to a champion who is already viable in other roles? Pretty obvious that Riot plays favorites when they get so passionate about some champions and allow others to rot for extended periods of time. :P

Nidalee Evelynn Elise

EDIT: Another thought: the nidalee buff is just a bit irksome to me mostly because there were no tradeoffs when she got it. When they buff a lot of the weaker champions they usually nerf something else to compensate because of power budget, but imho many times these champion's power budgets just don't have enough power. Why can't they be straight buffed? At least try it first and nerf if it's op. Like Nautilus for example. They recently buffed the cooldown on his e, but then nerfed the w base damage to "compensate". Couldn't they just keep the w as is and try it out first?

Yes, Nidalee got nerfed eventually, but the point is they gave her a power boost no strings attached and then nerfed her after observing the situation. Why don't they do that more often?

57 Comments

ScurvyNave27 votes

Favouritism abounds everywhere not just the jungle.

All the new champions outclass others, and we still have issues like: Zed Kalista LeeSin and Thresh.

All of these guys have always been very strong or borderline over powered but Riot's love and them and their capability for #LC$BIGPLAY$ means they get "get-outta-balance" free cards.

Narasimha14 votes

All of these guys have always been very strong or borderline over powered

And you actually put Zed in this list? Be honest, are you either very new, or just fishing for upvotes? For the longest time, Zed was a horrible pick because most mid laners could push him under tower and harass time far worse than he could do to them. He only became strong when the mana changes crippled his opposition.

Phoenix Kotori 14 votes

He only became strong when the mana changes crippled his opposition.

Yet he had 48.7% pick/ban at worlds months before those changes lol.

Narasimha7 votes

You know who had more? Alistar. And Maokai. How come I never saw the QQ about them?

PoisonedPeace10 votes

They were both nerfed immediately after worlds.

KidKaiser1 votes

they will get the renekton nerf soon.. after perhaps 3 more seasons.

they won't touch Lee anymore. you weren't there when they removed 'ward hops' for 3 days.

Matthias911922 votes

Except they literally just nerfed Nid's clears and buffed every tanky jungler.

Eve and Elise have broader issues. AP junglers that aren't tanks are in a bad spot right now.

MrBuffington2 votes

...unless you're Fiddlesticks :3 (yea I know he's not really popular in competitive, since people buy wards, but he has the highest jungle win rate in plat+ solo q last I checked).

Baron of Bread3 votes

Or Diana, she does fine.

MrBuffington1 votes

I mean we can include Karthus too if you want (Karma, Morgana, Brand, and whatever other off-meta picks you want to throw in there). I don't know if I'd really call Diana an outright jungler though; I believe she's more common mid lane, where champs like Eve, Elise, Fiddlesticks are played almost exclusively in the jungle now.

Kynami2 votes

Uhh... Diana can literally full clear the jungle and make a gank at level four with over 80% health and a health pot remaining. Diana is stupidly strong in jungle if you are running the right runes and mastery page. That shield on W goes a long ways, I personally run with a rune page that grants MR pen, AP, scaling AP, and SIXTEEN FLAT ARMOR. That flat armor also applies to the shield health.

Gromp -> Blue -> Wolves (chug first health pot) -> Red -> Level 3 gank? Y/N -> Krugs -> Raptors -> Level 4 gank? Y/N -> Back and buy.

MrBuffington1 votes

I didn't say she was weak, I said she's not exclusively a jungler like the others are (for the most part; yes I realize Fiddlesticks is played as a support, though I'd argue that role is secondary to his role as a jungler. The case with Diana is less clear; I'd say she's more of a mid laner).

RogueWill1 votes

Diana was though as a jungler, go check her champion spotlight, the off meta pick is diana mid not diana jungle xD

MrBuffington1 votes

Vi was also created as a top laner IIRC; I'd still consider Vi a jungler first. I don't think what Riot intends for a champion is as important as how the community uses the champion

RogueWill1 votes

I think she was presented as a duo jungler/top and not top exclusive. Diana in the other hand was presented only as a jungler.

MrBuffington1 votes

Again, I don't think what Riot intends for a champion is as important as how the community uses the champion. The meta isn't something that Riot makes.

Kynami1 votes

Fiddle is also a really nice pocket mid pick for making a Kat player have a really bad day. Same thing can be said for Diana. Honestly Diana mid is more often seen as a response to another pick than the first pick for mid lane.

MrBuffington1 votes

Yea I played vs a Fiddle mid as Annie not too long ago and I just floundered like a moron XD (he played around my stun pretty well, though I can say I was also playing like an idiot in that game)

My point though is that Fiddlesticks is, statistically, predominantly played as a jungler, and Diana, similarly, as a mid laner. I don't know the reasoning behind when she's picked or anything, I'm just citing statistics

Phoenix Kotori 10 votes

You're complaining after they nerfed her w? Last patch would have made sense, but they just nerfed her.

I really don't think people understood how strong the current health form of W was in the jungle for nidalee, her clear speed, and health were both lowered a fair amount by the nerf.

Also Elise has been a part of the trio Khazix LeeSin Elise holy trinity of junglers who kept literally anyone from seeing play in previous seasons, so fuck her, she's worse than Nidalee.

RoyaiChaos2 votes

You forgot Vi, but I agree with this 100%. Elise was a nightmare.

Phoenix Kotori 3 votes

Vi pushed out junglers in non-pro play, while other 3 impacted pros and non-pro play.

Tourian12 votes

{quoted}

You're complaining after they nerfed her w? Last patch would have made sense, but they just nerfed her.

I really don't think people understood how strong the current health form of W was in the jungle for nidalee, her clear speed, and health were both lowered a fair amount by the nerf.

Also Elise has been a part of the trio Khazix LeeSin Elise holy trinity of junglers who kept literally anyone from seeing play in previous seasons, so fuck her, she's worse than Nidalee.

Elise wasn't OP she just held her own against Lee. THAT is why people cried she needed to be nerfed.

chriserit2 votes

and Khazix too. remember that she counter him too. and when a champ counter the 2 most played champs...

AbiwonKenabi10 votes

I don't get it. People complain when a champion is quashed from a role and Riot "enforces the meta". People complain when Riot supports a champion in a variety of roles. People like to complain I guess.

I mean, Nidalee is getting nerfs that she definitely deserves, but c'mon. They just released a jungle item that should buff tank junglers. The Buff Barge is rolling out for tank junglers, and I'm actually fearful of Sejuani nerfs soon. What more does Riot need to do?

Elise and Evelynn have problems unrelated to the tank jungle problem.

Respakt1 votes

The tank jungle item doesn't help their clears that much, it is still much worse at clearing the jungle compared to warrior or devourer. The 25% increasse in bonus health is good but most tanks still have bad clears

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

While I don't think it will help tank junglers' early clear, it is still a far more useful enchant than before, allowing them basically an early sunfire without delaying any other items. It helps later clears not be so painfully slow and adds nice damage to a fight.

For some, this will be enough. For others, they may need more buffs (which, as I said, are coming out)

Kitten of Evil8 votes

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one annoyed about the literally free buffs they gave her JUST for the purpose of allowing her to jungle. Trust me, a lot of champions would love to be handed absolutely free buffs to help them in the jungle. Kayle, TF, Karma, Karthus, and basically any ranged champion... why not let them all have free random interactions with monsters? It makes about as much sense as handing Nid buffs. It's not like she is missing a place in the current meta, unlike some champions who are played jungle because they don't really fit elsewhere:

Amumu Zac Khazix Evelynn

Narasimha7 votes

Fun fact, Nidalee was given the buffs BECAUSE she was struggling in every other lane.

Couldn't really go top, too mana hungry, and bruisers laughed her out of lane. Couldn't go mid, mages destroyed her if she tried to farm, not to mention assassins. Couldn't support, theres better picks. And couldn't ADC, for obvious reasons.

Zac and Mumu just got huge buffs with the new jungle item, Kha is honestly pretty much impossible to balance, and Eve is finally getting some buffs (really weird ones, but its a start.)

Kitten of Evil4 votes

Did mages still destroy her mid after the mana regen nerfs? Because while I didn't see her OFTEN, I saw her mid more than other lanes, even before her jungle buffs.

Narasimha4 votes

A bit, but not as much to an extent as before. It kind of evened out though, because while she could farm manaless, she couldn't withstand the poke, and her sustain does cost a decent bit of her mana.

Kuroi862 votes

Honestly, I think the W change is only going to hurt Eve. I really can't see how it will help, going to have to wait and see.

TheRainInSpain1 votes

Graves can't ADC, for the same reasons as Nidalee. Oh, wait. You say Graves is a commonly used ADC?

The reason you never see any Nidalee ADC's (Or APC's because of her heal) is because the kit does not fit the role. Regardless of AD or AP, your job is to tag someone and jump on top of them. That is not how ADCs act. You never get close to your enemies as an ADC, thus 90% of Nidalee's kit is wasted despite her good stats compared to other common ADC's like Graves. Graves has like 6 more base damage and 1.5 more armor.

kunkudunk1 votes

Zac is still pretty bad though. Not as bad, but there is no reason to pick him over sej, amumu, or naut.

krawkaw1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlPBlA7K,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-14T01:58:56.258+0000)

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one annoyed about the literally free buffs they gave her JUST for the purpose of allowing her to jungle. Trust me, a lot of champions would love to be handed absolutely free buffs to help them in the jungle. Kayle, TF, Karma, Karthus, and basically any ranged champion... why not let them all have free random interactions with monsters? It makes about as much sense as handing Nid buffs. It's not like she is missing a place in the current meta, unlike some champions who are played jungle because they don't really fit elsewhere:

Amumu Zac Khazix Evelynn

While kha has been nerfed, and a buff would be nice, I'm always afraid that a buff might place him over the top again. however his late game is definitly lacking

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Riot actually Considers Eve's play style unhealthy. So she's sitting with Garen, Poppy, and Urgot while they decide what they want to do with her.

MrBuffington1 votes

My guess is that they'll start buffing her back once they release mandrake ward (yea I know there are some minor buffs on Eve on PBE, I think if mandrake ward is in a position to be released, they'll release it with some Eve buffs).

Either that or she's sitting in the looooooooong rework queue

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Either that or she's sitting in the looooooooong rework queue

I think she's after Lee Sin and Zed. XD

MrBuffington1 votes

I'm not sure whether to be hopeful that Lee Sin gets his rework soon or in despair because Eve isn't going to see the rework team...ever :3

In all seriousness, though, IIRC Ironstylus has floated that they're at least looking at Eve for VU type stuff in the not-quite-near-enough future, I wouldn't be surprised if she got gameplay changes then as well.

qilAOanPfA2 votes

I'm confused...in what way did she get a 2 second cc?

JJI7442 votes

{quoted}

I'm confused...in what way did she get a 2 second cc?

Hunted applies a 2s root to jungle monsters. So no, it doesn't work against champions, and is generally low-impact except in a single case: the scuttle crab. When rooted, it loses most of its armor/MR. Given Nidalee's high damage, the root lets her always clear scuttle crab in ~2 seconds, even lategame.

Champion Skin3 votes

Her passive "hunt" applying a root to jungler monsters and most of them are melee so they won't hit nidalee while in ranged from then

Kuroi862 votes

To increase jungle diversity. It's an ongoing process, there's still a LOT of work to do. Eve's main problem may be solved with the machete changes though, gotta test them out to see. The recent buffs to jungle tanks is a nice step, though it doesn't solve their biggest issue being their vulnerability to early ganks.

Risurin2 votes

the adc and support nidalee tho...btw before being junglers, both evelynn and elise were solo laners, mid and top.

Nidalee jungle is in the strong side of the current meta, i dont think she is op tho. Her late game is heavly dependant on how well her early-mid game went, she ahs good clear, but her ganks arent necessary the best and depend on spear landing. A well placed ward allows you to see the spear coming from a distance (you see nidalee coming switching form and look to land spear, just stay out of range, or dodge).

Also, they already slightly nerf her clear with the trap % damage, so i think we should see how that goes first. IMO, Nidalee whole kit fit a jungler role a lot better then solo lane, even before the stun to monster buff.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Eve is hard to fix. She was reworked in invisible spammable pink wards era. It's not clear how to make her stealth work in the new world.

Elise seems easier to deal with. Her problem is that she's excessively generalist as a jungler (basically the same problem as Lee) and has spammable targeted harass as a top laner. I feel like they could probably figure out a way to make this kit work in the jungle with some balance changes.

Nidalee being a jungler seems really natural. She gets movement speed from brushes and has really good tools for getting around in there. It seems like she should have been designed to jungle from the start, rather than being so focused on those nuclear tipped spears.

Catsoop II1 votes

I don't think shes this AMAZING jun.. Honestly her early jun is quite difficult. Im not saying its suuuppeer hard but it def takes some work as she takes quite a bit of dmg and you have to worry about mana if youre using heal a lot, which you will be. I agree she can be in any lane.. I personally love Nid APC haha But that doesn't mean she "better" or "stronger" than a strictly jun or top laner, cause ultimately youre only gonna be playing one roll per match so even though she CAN do them all.. She wont be, plus its all about the player anyway. Personally I love Niddalee and think she is one of the more balanced champs as far as her kill potential vs skill of the player using her. Don't change a thing Riot :)

Loken Stoneheart1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Catsoop II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlPBlA7K,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-03-15T04:15:25.995+0000)

I don't think shes this AMAZING jun.. Honestly her early jun is quite difficult. Im not saying its suuuppeer hard but it def takes some work as she takes quite a bit of dmg and you have to worry about mana if youre using heal a lot, which you will be. I agree she can be in any lane.. I personally love Nid APC haha But that doesn't mean she "better" or "stronger" than a strictly jun or top laner, cause ultimately youre only gonna be playing one roll per match so even though she CAN do them all.. She wont be, plus its all about the player anyway. Personally I love Niddalee and think she is one of the more balanced champs as far as her kill potential vs skill of the player using her. Don't change a thing Riot :)

Unless they fixed this, and I don't recall seeing anything about it, if you're really getting that beat up in the jungle-- She's ranged. There is a point she can stand where the mob resets for like 1/10th of a second every time it goes to hit her, meaning it never does any damage.

Also, she has a 2 second root on hunt, so she can just CC them and wail on them for two seconds.

PerishSoftly1 votes

I just went 3-0 in a game as Eve wherein we managed to not get dragon stolen, and after that fight I was pretty much still useless.

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

Yeah I main Eve so I know the struggle. You can get pretty far ahead in early-mid game and be really great, but come late game ur pretty much just not a factor regardless of early performance.

Learnding1 votes

With this Trundle buff, you're going to see a bunch more people play Trundle in the jungle. I'm almost certain Trundle is the only oppressive jungler that can combat Lee, Jarvan and Nid early. You're going to see a shift in the jungle if Trundle becomes FoTM in the Jungle.

Brec1 votes

The same reason veigar was made a useless champion and was basically given 2 skill shots... His E is worthless and so is his Q...

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by DynamiteGazelle

It works for Overwatch because those games are short
Gameplay84 comments
337
votes
Let us use B animations in ARAM
Gameplay75 comments
284
votes
Whichever country has the most restrictive rules now defines the art globally for the entire game
Story, Art, & Sound153 comments
260
votes
Can Eve PLEASE have some AD scaling?
Gameplay123 comments
137
votes
Why isn't squishiness/immobility considered counterplay?
Gameplay105 comments
117
votes
Dauntless Ahri is pretty much universally preferred..
Concepts & Creations49 comments
85
votes