Vayne really shouldn't be allowed to go top

warpenguin555·Jan 9, 2018·48 votes·5,854 views

If her big weakness is supposed to be her early game, why can she go top and ignore that weakness against a good chunk of the top lane roster?

77 Comments

dunder killJan 9, 201811 votes

Vayne Top is trash dafuq? At best she's a counterpick for Darius and maybe Illaoi. Have fun getting dumpstered by Olaf Nasus MonkeyKing Riven Gangplank Jax JarvanIV Kled Pantheon Quinn Renekton Talon Teemo

Why would you ever pick Vayne top over Teemo? Teemo does twice the game she does early lol

DanjengJan 9, 20182 votes

yeah but you get to tumble around like faker. can teemo do that

DuskDaUmbreonJan 9, 20183 votes

Teemo gets to tilt people with his laugh. That's clearly the strongest of abilities.

XxDRAGONsAK47xXJan 9, 201810 votes

I beat a vayne top as Aatrox. Was my first time Aatrox too.

Pretty proud of myself

dunder killJan 9, 201822 votes

That's because Vayne top is actual dogshit

XxDRAGONsAK47xXJan 9, 201810 votes

Then why do all my teammates lose to her top...?

DuskDaUmbreonJan 9, 201813 votes

Because they're incompetent, or panicking, or playing against her like she's any other toplaner, when you have to change how you play a bit.

The big reasons people lose to Vayne with lane bullies is either because their entire power is in lane bullying (which it's hard to do against a ranged champion), or because they think they can just easily bully her at level 1 or 2. You don't. You wait until level 3, 4, 5 or 6 (depending on whenever your spike is), and then blow her up, being extremely careful to not get between her and a wall. If you don't have a strong enough all-in like that, bring ghost over flash (trust me, it helps far more against her than flash), or bring your jungler top and just camp the fuck out of her for easy gold (Hand them the kill for more incentive, if you need to).

The big thing against Vayne is not picking Darius. If you pick Darius, you have no right to complain, because you shit on half the roster (all except a few melee champions) anyways, so you deserve to get shit on by the other half (all except a few ranged champions).

TrikzterzArmaJan 9, 20186 votes

Blow her up at lvl 6? When she gains permastealth and tumbles away from everything?

DuskDaUmbreonJan 9, 20189 votes

Sure. She gets her stealth and a bit of damage, and then most toplane champions get the ability to nuke everyone else.

Aatrox gets an arguably better damage boost than Vayne does, Akali becomes relevant, Chogath gets to nuke Vayne, Camille gets to trap Vayne, Darius gets to nuke Vayne if he ever manages to close, DrMundo gets his immortality, Fiora gets her...ult, Gangplank gets to ignore Vayne's ult, Garen gets PURE DEMACIAN JUSTICE, Gnar gets ~~to become even more cancerous~~ his stun (which, if you're positioned right, will be an easy AF kill, because Vayne's now stunned. And anywhere Vayne can't knock you into a wall, you're almost certain to be able to knock her into a wall)...

Honestly, Vayne's only good against toplane champions the same times mages are good against Akali - before level 6, and after level 14 or so.

TrikzterzArmaJan 9, 20183 votes

The only ones I see here that stand a chance against Vayne are Camille and Akali, but the rest? No. Vayne can still stealth, tumble, and knock back all the enemies.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 9, 20188 votes

Honestly, Aatrox would do fine against Vayne. Vayne needs to rush other items before she can dare get an Executioner's, and he can just Q her E, since he's unstoppable during it. Vayne's also squishy enough that Aatrox can just faceroll her once he's in range and she's used her E already.

And Gnar should have no problem since Gnar is a pain in everyone's ass. 100% of people hate fighting Gnar.

Some of the others will be iffy, but that's just A-G of toplaners. Doesn't even look at Teemo , Tryndamere , Nasus (big importance on him, since he craps on 90% of marksmen, and since Vayne has to be pretty close to hit him, it puts him pretty damned close to being able to hit Vayne back, between his ult and his Q, and he's easily able to use W on Vayne), Malphite (an impossible fight as nearly any squishy), Kled , Jayce ...

woodvsmurphJan 10, 20182 votes

Except vayne has forced cho to miss 50% of the cs and can dodge cho's damage unless he flashes to open the fight. At which point he still can't 1-shot, vayne gets: flash, condemn, and tumble as 3 options to kite out cho and murder him with aa's. Cho will literally never 1v1 an equally competent vayne in laning phase. Camille - she's the most op toplaner right now; of course she should win. She's got a fat shield, q nuke true damage, a stun, and 2nd gapcloser with her ult. Darius win? The vayne has to be an idiot. Mundo win? The vayne has to be an idiot. Fiora? Sure - she does half a person's health bar for hitting them 4x and has spammable mobility via q. Gp? Sure he can farm fine, but vayne should prevent him from ever doing a meaningful 3 barrel combo. Garen? Pls. It's the mundo case, but even worse.

Troll for TrumpJan 10, 20184 votes

The level 1,2,3,4,5,6 varies from champ to champ. Darius can actually outtrade her at lvl 1 if she doesn't get Q.

You can only blow her up if she makes a mistake or the jgler comes. That's how ranged top laners work. She has counterplay, it's just extremely limited and inaccessible as most top laners.

The big thing against Vayne is not picking Darius. If you pick Darius, you have no right to complain, because you shit on half the roster (all except a few melee champions) anyways, so you deserve to get shit on by the other half (all except a few ranged champions).

Darius is as dogshit as Vayne. Difference is at least Vayne scales better into late-game and can bully better. Darius doesn't even shit on half the roster anymore.

Honestly, almost anyone who hates Darius is just bad. Legit. He has so much counterplay in his kit, if you lose to him in high elo, you just have no idea how to play against him.

The exception is if you play an immobile melee, which basically consist of tanks and other juggernauts. Then it's statchecking. Most immobile melees just work like that. The problem is that Darius loses to most tanks, even in lane. He definitely can't bully them like he's supposed to anymore.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The level 1,2,3,4,5,6 varies from champ to champ. Darius can actually outtrade her at lvl 1 if she doesn't get Q.

You don't see many Vaynes that start W, though. And few people are willing to trade at level 1 at all.

You can only blow her up if she makes a mistake or the jgler comes. That's how ranged top laners work. She has counterplay, it's just extremely limited and inaccessible as most top laners.

Technically, you can't beat anyone if they play perfectly. If they do not play perfectly, they made some kind of mistake.

Baiting an ability is a given part of counterplay - and a completely valid one. If you don't bait Ahri's charm (or otherwise get her to waste it), you're not going to kill her, ever. Treat Vayne the same way. Once her E is down, she's a free kill, because she has pathetic range, and is laughably squishy. Think Sona, Lux, or Kog'maw levels. If you force her into a stat-check some time before level 14 or 15, you've won, because you're just going to out-stat her. Anyone but a Rakan or Janna can nuke Vayne.

Darius is as dogshit as Vayne. Difference is at least Vayne scales better into late-game and can bully better. Darius doesn't even shit on half the roster anymore.

Honestly, almost anyone who hates Darius is just bad. Legit. He has so much counterplay in his kit, if you lose to him in high elo, you just have no idea how to play against him.

The exception is if you play an immobile melee, which basically consist of tanks and other juggernauts. Then it's statchecking. Most immobile melees just work like that. The problem is that Darius loses to most tanks, even in lane. He definitely can't bully them like he's supposed to anymore.

The problem is, in everyone's mind is the past however long Darius has existed. You always think of Darius shitting on most toplane champions - who are generally immobile melees, who, as you said, he generally beats. For the entirety of season 6 and 7, the counterplay to him was essentially just counterpicking him. And the only real counterplay to someone being to counterpick them (when said counter pick is not a large amount of the general roster for a lane) is not a good thing.

Troll for TrumpJan 10, 20181 votes

You don't see many Vaynes that start W, though. And few people are willing to trade at level 1 at all. They don't try to trade, but try to poke, and, in doing so, are in range of your Q. Good Vaynes should take Q, but some cocky bad ones not only start W but also go hyperaggro.

Technically, you can't beat anyone if they play perfectly. If they do not play perfectly, they made some kind of mistake. Yes, but as I said, it's much harder for you to provoke or capitalize on mistakes as immobile melees. If her E is off CD, she can just play safe and farm from afar with her range. Even then, she still has Q to dash out, and the Q dash is more mobility than a large majority of bruisers have. If you're an immobile melee, the only way out of it is from jgl, which doesn't feel right. Quinn, Teemo, Kayle, and Gnar, also do similar things, but none are as bad as Vayne on account of her dmg and zoning being strong off silver bolts, and because she has stronger self-peel to accomodate for her low range.

The problem is, in everyone's mind is the past however long Darius has existed...

That was in the past, though. Now, Darius can't even keep up with most of the immobile melees. Everyone's mind is stuck in the past, but so is Darius (and a large number of Juggernauts).

Juggernauts and their playstyle really have no place anymore.

VerxintJan 10, 20181 votes

Darius can actually do just fine against Vayne, but a lot of Darius players are stupid

DuskDaUmbreonJan 10, 20182 votes

Lmao

While it is very true that most Darius players are idiots, Darius does tend to struggle against range, and also tends to struggle against mobility - both of which Vayne has. Darius losing to Vayne I understand completely.

Now, if someone else loses to Vayne top, I'll definitely question their ability. And if someone picks Darius into Vayne, I'll question their sanity. But if they get counterpicked as Darius by a Vayne, I won't blame them for their loss. I'll just blame them for playing Darius in the first place, because only assholes do that.

VerxintJan 10, 20182 votes

I will fully admit that I'm an asshole and I play Darius, so no argument there.

However, I would argue that Darius doesn't actually have as much of an issue with mobility as people think. It's layers and layers of CC in larger fights that screw him over. He has enough tools between his bulk and brute strength to handle hoppity mobile champions.

Vayne has mobility, range, and CC, which would be a problem for him if she wasn't so weak early. Aside from level 1 and 2 where the range advantage really does work, he can farm with smart skill usage and threaten her with a pull combo. If you space correctly, she can't proc bolts without exposing herself to danger. It's not an easy matchup for him compared to many others, but he can handle it if he plays to his strengths and knows his limits.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 10, 20181 votes

True. Vayne's short range would put her pretty close to being in range of Darius's pull. He could easily move in and combo her, meaning she'd take a lot of damage for level 3-5, and would probably be instantly lethal when Darius had ult...

I forgot to factor in the fact that she only has about 400 range when thinking of this matchup. My bad!

VerxintJan 10, 20181 votes

She has 550 range I believe, which puts her just a smudge outside of his pull. But once he has a phage, he can get the speedup from creeps, catch her during the auto attack animation, and yes, if he gets on her after level 6 it's pretty much lethal.

Also, it's tricky, but you can pull as she condemns and bring her all the way with you. Not a reliable move, but it's pretty fucking funny.

woodvsmurphJan 10, 20181 votes

Because junglers don't gank. She's literally free 500 gold if the toplaner has good cc and the jungler is competent. Because base mobility of melee's used to be high enough they could easily run down a ranged champ early and overpower them with base stats and powerful abilities. This is no longer true. Because aa steroids from runes make aa champs overly strong far too early into the game. Because her jungler camps for her for the first 15 min of the game.

MarshbouyJan 9, 20186 votes

Every time vayne top gets "popular" it gets a whopping >47% winrate in toplane. The only people who struggle against it are people who don't understand how to play in lane against her.

Janna Me FiddleJan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Every time vayne top gets "popular" it gets a whopping >47% winrate in toplane. The only people who struggle against it are people who don't understand how to play in lane against her.

It was literally disgusting to play against before PTA got nerfed, Auto > Tumble > Auto > Condemn was 50% of your hp gone. Because silver bolts, press the attack damage and shred and condemn damage would all proc together forcing you away.

Now she can't do that anymore it's much easier to trade back/all in punish if she tries to engage you.

And just remember, just because of win rate being 47% doesn't mean it does not work as there will be a good few people that are bad with her trying it.

47% means there's a lot succeeding with it which should not be happening at all.

Starcraft243verJan 10, 20182 votes

47% means there's a lot succeeding with it which should not be happening at all.

Since, according to the board, best botlane wins and toplane is irrevelant, the winrate of vayne top is not bound to her succeeding.

Troll for TrumpJan 10, 20186 votes

Top lane vayne is only bad when the player is bad. Same with ADC. She's far from shit. You won't ever beat a good vayne. It's just the good vaynes will play her adc.

Doesn't make her less cancerous.

Most top laners can only beat her when she makes a mistake. This is the same with any ranged top laner.

What this post should be about is why ranged top laners are unhealthy for the lane.

Pokemonred200Jan 9, 20185 votes

I would assume it's because of how easily she gets camped up there, and because of the fact that there are still a chunk of toplane champs she would lose to (like any duelist toplaner with a gapcloser). Fiora Jayce Pantheon Riven Yasuo Tryndamere all shit on her if the two players are of equal skill (each for their own reasons), Ornn will just rush a bramble vest and somehow outdamage her until she gets items, Maokai Malphite will wait for the jungler and then proceed to cuck her when they show up. She actually wins more in botlane than she does in toplane, because she won't have anyone to save her ass when she fucks up or overextends, and because she loses duels against a lot of champions with even a half decent early game.

InvidieJan 9, 201816 votes

why are you talking like Vayne is melee, and her q is non existent, e is not a knockback?

Pokemonred200Jan 9, 20187 votes

...because her E is a 20 second cooldown on one person (which Fiora and Yasuo can negate altogether), her Q doesn't dash far enough to save her from any of these champions, most of these champions have enough CC to lock her down long enough for her to be unable to react, a few of them (especially Yasuo and Riven ) can gapclose a further distance with shorter cooldowns (a smart one won't even use their gapclose abilities before she Tumbles or Condemns), have a much bigger threat than her when they get in range ( Pantheon especially, who will laugh in her face), better defensive tools, and higher burst when they're in range?

This doesn't even take into account that her tumble and condemn will almost never be enough to save her from a gank from a jungler that has any common sense. Despite her range, she is still one of THE squishiest champions in the game, especially when building glass cannon and especially early game. A decent amount of CC and damage will be her end, which quite a lot of the toplane roster is known to have. Almost every toplaner with a decent gapcloser can, and will, fuck her easily if they know what they're doing.

InvidieJan 9, 20184 votes

"a smart one won't even use their gapclose abilities before she Tumbles or Condemns" dosent it mean the same thing for vayne? btw pantheon should be every top laner's ban target. also any top laner that has common sense will be able to play back knowing the enemy jungler just finished their red.

SangreDeNocheJan 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=I L0ve Senna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vi7WBtQA,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-01-09T19:07:49.445+0000)

why are you talking like Vayne is melee, and her q is non existent, e is not a knockback?

Probably because most vaynes one seees like to tumble into melee range and don't use knockback when they should.

LesbiAngeJan 9, 20185 votes

and Lux Lux should not be allowed to go support.

Daddy AntsJan 9, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jinx is Senate,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vi7WBtQA,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-01-09T19:49:07.664+0000)

and Lux should not be allowed to go support.

Nor should Annie Fiddlesticks Zyra Velkoz Veigar Morgana

DanjengJan 9, 20184 votes

I mean Morg is a pretty legit support. You sure as hell don't pick her for the damage.

Daddy AntsJan 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean Morg is a pretty legit support. You sure as hell don't pick her for the damage.

She feels better mid lane than in Support to me at least.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 9, 20183 votes

She still is a rather valid support.

A lot of CC, not a massive amount of damage, and a spell shield that is situationally better than any other spell shield - or possibly any other shield in the game, for that matter.

Every other support you listed, though, they're just damage. Sure, they have CC, and Lux has a shield, but they're not for that at all.

xelakerJan 9, 20182 votes

Fiddlesticks you can fuck right off mate.

HungryAngry2SPPJan 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Nor should

Fiddle supp is like Pantheon top, it sucks, but wins becouse the enemy is outfarmed (same Xerath supp)

DominosThotJan 9, 20185 votes

Ranged champs in general break top lane. You either pick Pantheon or another ranged champ or basically lose the lane.

5301Jan 10, 20185 votes

Why pick Vayne top when you can play her bot with the current targon's overheal fleet footwork build and be just about as safe without nearly ruining your team comp?

Why pick Vayne when Jayce exists?

General Esdeath Jan 10, 20184 votes

Because top laners are in a shitty spot as is, but include range to the formula and they just fall apart.

ElycianJan 9, 20183 votes

I had success picking ghost on champions she's supposed to counter like Darius (or Trynd?), she might condemn me once but i can still run her down the lane, move speed ítems like bork or righteous glory etc.

Tactical BarrelsJan 11, 20181 votes

Not to mention you can almost ghost twice before she can flash once, great summoner spell.

Colton147Jan 9, 20183 votes

Quinn Gnar Jayce

SpecterVonBarenJan 10, 20182 votes

Only issue is... how do you stop her from going top? And I'm not asking this in a "Oh there's no solution so just deal with it" way. I legitimately don't know what you would change about her to make her not go top.

CelebrimborrJan 11, 20181 votes

Lower base ms, make her squisher so she get outdmged by top lane goons easier, lower tumble distance, make condemn push you farther if she is closer to you and shorter if she is farther from you. any one of those would work

SpecterVonBarenJan 11, 20181 votes

Only one I outright disagree with is her Tumble range, it's already one of the shortest dashes in the game.

CelebrimborrJan 12, 20181 votes

true

StraightPorn666Jan 10, 20182 votes

vayne is so easy to shit on in lane doh Vayne

Somebody Love MeJan 10, 20182 votes

Personally, I don't think traditional marksmen should be allowed to do well in other lanes, if marksmen are gonna be the only carry class allowed bot.