Lol RIP Karma - Patch 7.12

Sir Rouge·Jun 17, 2017·9 votes·1,535 views

(Actual numbers may be off but differences between numbers are pretty constant between sites)

From 7.11 to 7.12 Play rate : 11.5% ish --> 7% ish Win rate : 47.2% ish --> 45.64% ish

From 7.10 to 7.12 Play rate : 17% ish ---> 7% ish Win rate : 47.7% ish --> 45.6% ish (the lowest out of any support)

I guess she was actually just turned into a team-shield magician after laning phase... but now that that's nerfed, she may not have any strenghts left at this point (outside of lane). Why do I still love to play her...

Yet they still are not looking into , one of her biggest counters (btw, he has more than double the pick rate of any other support with the 2nd highest pick rate, while having the 4th highest winrate and being mechanically intensive). Touching him could help Karma.

Will she finally drop out of competitive so they can look into her?

23 Comments

Death by GlamourJun 17, 20173 votes

Puts her back into rework territory

Hooray

chipndip1Jun 17, 20172 votes

How is THRESH a counter to AN AGGRESSIVE, RANGED SUPPORT?

IxtaliKingJun 17, 20171 votes

For real, he really isn't. He just has more potential to beat a champ like Karma because he has a proper kit with a high skill cap. Karma is binary and her skill cap is pretty much her skill floor.

chipndip1Jun 17, 20171 votes

Even that makes no sense. Sona does well into Thresh as long as you dodge his hook and avoid walking into his flay, and she has the lowest floor/cap in the game I can think of save champs like Teemo and Kayle.

Karma should be just fine poking from Q range and using E on whoever gets caught by the hook.

IxtaliKingJun 17, 20171 votes

I said potential. Of course anyone could do well against him If they dodge his hooks, but a good Thresh has it's ways. Also you'd preferably want to use Karma's E ms boost to dodge his hook in the 1st place, if he catches your adc a 70 + 50% ap shield after won't do much in lane.

chipndip1Jun 17, 20172 votes

Aight, I'ma try to reel this in before we go off the rails:

You're right in pointing out that the OP is just having issues with dealing with good Thresh players (or at least not bad ones). I was too tunneled vision on his emphasis on "countering" someone that he clearly shouldn't counter.

IxtaliKingJun 17, 20171 votes

Yeah I see you, and I agree.

MisterShamelessJun 17, 20172 votes

Here is an interesting post on the Thresh Mains reddit where they invited the Karma Mains over to discuss Thresh vs Karma. https://www.reddit.com/r/ThreshMains/comments/4qmras/weekly_matchup_thread_thresh_v_karma/

I pick Thresh when the enemy picks Karma support and I won pretty much all of them (as far as i remember.) Thresh is a good counter to Karma and I've mained both of them since season 4.

Sir RougeJun 18, 20171 votes

There are two types of counters (mostly).

Lane counters : picks that to do very well against another champion in lane (ex: picking Caitlyn into Vayne ). Teamplay counters : picks that do very well against another champion outside of lane (ex: picking Ekko into Syndra ).

In lane, thresh is probably going to get pushed in if he's against Karma. He will lose 2v2 most times, depending on his hooks. Thresh is then heavily reliant on jungle ganks, where a forced hook-lantern can easily kill a pushing lane. In the end, Karma has the advantage here, but she can't push as hard as other matchups because of the gank assist of thresh.

Outside of lane, this is where thresh shines. Karma will do very well against him in extended teamfights, but she doesn't have control over what thresh can do. Karma has no instant hard-cc, counter-engage nor a spell-shield. It's all about if thresh can hook someone out of position, as karma's protection isn't good enough to always save her allies (compared to Janna/Lulu). She just has a shield with the lowest values in game unless her ult is up.

That's why, if you want to ''counter'' Karma, you pick things like Nami (lane advantage) or Thresh (because he's the one that dictates how the game goes because Karma doesn't have the tools to deal with him outside of lane). Her bad winrate against thresh is not a coincidence, and it's more significant in high elo.

chipndip1Jun 18, 20172 votes

By that logic everyone counters Karma because Karma is fucking weak after lane in all scenarios. That's why Riot played into her shielding fallback pattern to begin with...because they couldn't think of a good way to do anything else with her. She can peddle people around and she ~~has~~ had a pretty big shield...that was her late game "thing". She now lost that thing so now she's even worse.

Sir RougeJun 18, 20172 votes

Yeah, Karma's lane is definitely better than her out-of-lane, but she~~'s~~ was not weak in all aspects.

Protecting someone that gets picked off : weak. Providing nice hard cc in teamfights : weak (with her w being a pretty bad hard cc tbh). Protecting against AoE damage, team-kiting and engage enabling : great. For example, she~~'s~~ was (lol) great at protecting against a vlad that AoE's a team, or enabling extended teamfights where nobody gets picked off.

But yeah, they put her too much in the shielding fallback like you said and now here are the consequences where they nerfed it and now she's too weak.

ZapMyHeartJun 18, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Rouge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vdjNdnTT,comment-id=0004000200000000,timestamp=2017-06-18T19:29:39.892+0000)

Yeah, Karma's lane is definitely better than her out-of-lane, but she~~'s~~ was not weak in all aspects.

Protecting someone that gets picked off : weak. Providing nice hard cc in teamfights : weak (with her w being a pretty bad hard cc tbh). Protecting against AoE damage, team-kiting and engage enabling : great. For example, she~~'s~~ was (lol) great at protecting against a vlad that AoE's a team, or enabling extended teamfights where nobody gets picked off.

But yeah, they put her too much in the shielding fallback like you said and now here are the consequences where they nerfed it and now she's too weak.

This is what happens when you put a first time designer to a champion, rush order it, and then pretend like it's all fine and dandy when they kept buffing her constantly to try and justify that terrible relaunch of hers.

Old Karma mains saw that trainwreck from 100,000 Teemos away.

Too much power in RE and meh in RQ and RW, which forces her into her shield bot role.

As long as she can 5-man shield with RE, she'll stay the way she is.

BisaknospJun 17, 20172 votes

meanwhile thresh is left untouched

Warlord ScrapJun 17, 20171 votes

didnt she get a skin in 7.10 which would boost her numbers a bit though. Although the winrate tanking is bad.

Sir RougeJun 17, 20171 votes

Nah, the skin was in 7.8

Warlord ScrapJun 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Rouge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vdjNdnTT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-06-17T05:43:05.514+0000)

Nah, the skin was in 7.8

Your right i couldnt remeber off the top of my head

xelakerJun 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

didnt she get a skin in 7.10 which would boost her numbers a bit though. Although the winrate tanking is bad.

her winrate wasnt from skilled players though. she could empower her q and chunk an adc at level 1...

LexyyJun 17, 20171 votes

I'll go AP, that's how I like her best honestly. :)

As long as they dont nerf her q... I'm fine with her

WalkingInACircleJun 17, 20171 votes

I have no idea why she is played competitively.

IxtaliKingJun 17, 20172 votes

Because Riot have supported a very non-interactive, zero counterplay play style through their updated support itemisation. They think that players actually like it, when in reality older Karma players hate it and FOTM/meta sheep just abuse it. They need to stop trying to support her 5.10 changes, the direction taken was flawed from the start and they didn't listen.

ForgiveColourJun 17, 20171 votes

You know karma has been meta support since last year right?

Sir RougeJun 18, 20172 votes

Yup, she definitely has been. I don't want her to be meta (pretty tired of it), but all she has been getting since then are nerfs and they took away anything that made Karma unique (like minion shielding/boosting for example). Obviously, nerfs were justifed back then for power level reasons, but it just felt like she got weaker and weaker but that the fact that she had RQ and RE in the same kit compensated for it all in terms of viability. Now, she's basically too weak and I want something new added to her.