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Karma PBE nerf

Sir Rouge··20 votes·9,172 views

Nerfs:

  • Focused Resolve (W) - now does the same damage over two ticks instead of three. -------> This would nerf the R cooldown granted by damaging with the ability.
  • Focused Resolve (W) - seems to no longer reveal champions
  • Mantra Bonus - Defiance (R+E) shield value lowered to 30/90/150/210 from 30/100/170/240.

RIP Karma's last unique/distinct ability (no more champion reveal, after the unit shielding/speedboost and shieldbombs gone)

Let me point out that :

  • They're nerfing a low-medium skill cap champion sitting at a 49.79% winrate with a 9.94% play rate and a 0.78% ban rate.
  • Sion Janna Blitzcrank Brand Soraka Sona Zyra Nami Zilean Leona Velkoz Nautilus Taric Morgana and Thresh all have a higher winrate
  • Janna Blitzcrank Zyra Nami Leona Morgana and Thresh all have a higher winrate and a similar or way higher playrate.
  • The only traditional support champions that have a lower or winrate are Braum Lulu (very slightly lower) Alistar (had changes) Bard (high skillcap) and ''TahmKench ''.
  • These other ''very effective'' and not niche at all -.- supports also have a lower winrate with a tiny play rate (except lux lol new skin) : Veigar Fiddlesticks Galio Annie Lux Taliyah Shen Ivern MissFortune Nunu

Stats don't mean everything, that's true, so can anyone give me insight on this please? High elo problems?

Edit: thank god, she will not lose her reveal/true sight, it was just an oversight on her tooltip.

44 Comments

RiotRiot Wav3Break8 votes

Karma's W still reveals targets while they are linked. There will be a tool-tip update that calls out the reveal as "True Sight" soon so it's more clear that it can reveal invisible enemies (like Vayne) as well.

Other players have mentioned it, but we are inclined to take a look at her power due to her meta presence.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Other players have mentioned it, but we are inclined to take a look at her power due to her meta presence.

Undoing the shield buffs she was given in 6.6 should be enough to reduce her meta presence. That W change is unnecessary and will feel bad.

Krys Star17 votes

Thresh has had meta presence in most games too. Why not hit him as well? :) Double standards, I'd assume.

Big Lincoln4 votes

because thresh isn't actually that good

Ratbert16 votes

Neither is karma, but here we are.

Winterkill11 votes

Yep. The Balance and Update team think the number buff and items on Karma make her meta . . . . when in reality she is not . . . . and her reworked kit proves it. Riot has buffed her numbers more than any champion and nerfs the crap out of it later on . . . . Until they address the problems and stop prioritizing 7 Ryze reworks and Ekko every patch, maybe Karma would be meta. She's not meta. These guys are insane if they think she is.

warpenguin5553 votes

dude dont talk to karma mains. atleast not the ones on here.

Winterkill8 votes

Let's be real here, are you really addressing the problems with her bland, directionless kit or are you addressing the one insane number buff to her E+R and the items that made it 10x stronger? Don't say Karma is meta at all. You have to actually do positive work on a champion to say it is meta. Your team has 4 years now to do ANY work on Karma . . . . and you AGAIN nerf the buffs you give her. This is evidence that your rework failed and that all number buffs that you have done on her, have failed. It is now 4 years into the reworked kit that you think is amazing and not working on, that you continue to nerf . . . . and nerf . . . Did your team really just do all of this to throw it in Karma mains face that "hey, we worked on Karma . . . . without actually working on her. we do care about Karma." Stop paying your other Departments to say you actually care about Karma . . . . when you haven't for 4 years now. At this point, don't even bother working on her.

Since you Red Names part of the balance and update team like to come into threads and make ridiculous little comments like you know what you are doing, will do your job for you. I'll spot you this time and tell you what you should probably be working on and give you some suggestions.

Don't do all of this . . . . do what is appropriate or DO SOMETHING. Karma needs MINOR changes or something other than a number buff you continue to give her. Stop being lazy, stop saying she is meta, and stop saying you care about Karma. What is the point of giving her a number buff that you nerf? You have done this more than 4 times now. Either address her problems and make minor changes to her kit, or don't work at her at all until you find the time to work on her, like you did with Ryze 7 times and Ekko every patch.

  1. Karma has no damage mid to late game. You buffed her E+R in an attempt to make her more of a presence later on in the game, truly solidifying her role as a support since you basically don't care about Karma being a mage anymore.

  2. Give her a new passive that helps MAGE karma and move the current one to her ULT.

  3. Remove the ridiculous long stun duration and heal on W+R. Give us a completely new ability or change the function of W+R that isn't utility and does decent damage.

  4. Make Q+R be placed anywhere the mouse is pointed at and not be blocked by minions anymore. Seriously, if you are going to not work on mage Karma at all, at least fix this or make it to where the first champion hit procs Q+R.

  5. Find another way to make E+R more interesting or scrap it. The function already exists in the game as an item active. You have to either find a new way to make it stand out and play with . . . . or replace it with something else. It's not fun or distinctive enough to sit in the back and press E+R over and over again mid to late game. I am not doing damage to help my team . . . I am not providing CC . . . . I am not doing anything other than pressing one button to speed up my entire team and negate damage done on them. Karma is a shield bot mid to late game, since you made her damage irrelevant mid to late game.

/done.

Are you guys afraid to do any work on Karma? If that is the case, it is coming off as you not caring. There have been way too many threads and no communication for far to long. Your behavior towards Karma and work ethic regarding her is finally catching up to you and all you have to say is, she is meta now and we have to look at how strong she is and do some readjustments. This is your readjustments . . . . . nerfing the useless number buffs you gave her in the first place. Please do better.

Grief Me Please1 votes

{quoted}

Let's be real here, are you really addressing the problems with her bland, directionless kit or are you addressing the one insane number buff to her E+R and the items that made it 10x stronger? Don't say Karma is meta at all. You have to actually do positive work on a champion to say it is meta. Your team has 4 years now to do ANY work on Karma . . . . and you AGAIN nerf the buffs you give her. This is evidence that your rework failed and that all number buffs that you have done on her, have failed. It is now 4 years into the reworked kit that you think is amazing and not working on, that you continue to nerf . . . . and nerf . . . Did your team really just do all of this to throw it in Karma mains face that "hey, we worked on Karma . . . . without actually working on her. we do care about Karma." Stop paying your other Departments to say you actually care about Karma . . . . when you haven't for 4 years now. At this point, don't even bother working on her.

Since you Red Names part of the balance and update team like to come into threads and make ridiculous little comments like you know what you are doing, will do your job for you. I'll spot you this time and tell you what you should probably be working on and give you some suggestions.

Don't do all of this . . . . do what is appropriate or DO SOMETHING. Karma needs MINOR changes or something other than a number buff you continue to give her. Stop being lazy, stop saying she is meta, and stop saying you care about Karma. What is the point of giving her a number buff that you nerf? You have done this more than 4 times now. Either address her problems and make minor changes to her kit, or don't work at her at all until you find the time to work on her, like you did with Ryze 7 times and Ekko every patch.

  1. Karma has no damage mid to late game. You buffed her E+R in an attempt to make her more of a presence later on in the game, truly solidifying her role as a support since you basically don't care about Karma being a mage anymore.

  2. Give her a new passive that helps MAGE karma and move the current one to her ULT.

  3. Remove the ridiculous long stun duration and heal on W+R. Give us a completely new ability or change the function of W+R that isn't utility and does decent damage.

  4. Make Q+R be placed anywhere the mouse is pointed at and not be blocked by minions anymore. Seriously, if you are going to not work on mage Karma at all, at least fix this or make it to where the first champion hit procs Q+R.

  5. Find another way to make E+R more interesting or scrap it. The function already exists in the game as an item active. You have to either find a new way to make it stand out and play with . . . . or replace it with something else. It's not fun or distinctive enough to sit in the back and press E+R over and over again mid to late game. I am not doing damage to help my team . . . I am not providing CC . . . . I am not doing anything other than pressing one button to speed up my entire team and negate damage done on them. Karma is a shield bot mid to late game, since you made her damage irrelevant mid to late game.

/done.

Are you guys afraid to do any work on Karma? If that is the case, it is coming off as you not caring. There have been way too many threads and no communication for far to long. Your behavior towards Karma and work ethic regarding her is finally catching up to you and all you have to say is, she is meta now and we have to look at how strong she is and do some readjustments. This is your readjustments . . . . . nerfing the useless number buffs you gave her in the first place. Please do better.

Imma be honest, changing RQ to only "pop" on champs would be awful strong poke that goes through minion waves is strong, yes, but she loses out on basically her only waveclear :v

IxtaliKing3 votes

He might mean changing RQ to be ground targeted, so it would only pop where it's been placed. She'd probably need number tweaks if that were to happen though, since it would likely add considerable power to her.

Grief Me Please1 votes

{quoted}

He might mean changing RQ to be ground targeted, so it would only pop where it's been placed. She'd probably need number tweaks if that were to happen though, since it would likely add considerable power to her.

.3. that would basically make her brand then also, i'd personally dislike that, since right now I can Q outside of max range to shoot it where I want it, while if it were ground targeted, karma would move to be in range of wherever you click

IxtaliKing1 votes

Not quite, Q would remain the same just RQ would be ground targeted. The spell would still be sufficiently different to Brand's W, and still have the same range.

Grief Me Please1 votes

{quoted}

Not quite, Q would remain the same just RQ would be ground targeted. The spell would still be sufficiently different to Brand's W, and still have the same range.

This doesn't change that her poke would be more annoying to do then, cause instead of a skillshot it'd MOVE karma so that she's in range of where you want to shoot her RQ. And in it's current state, the only difference between this and brands W is that the delay would be longer (since i doubt they'd keep upfront damage if this changed)

IxtaliKing1 votes

That would depend how they code it, it* could be ground targeted but still stop at the 1st champion hit, like Shyvana's new Dragon form E.

Grief Me Please1 votes

So basically like it is now, but it'll just pass through minions :P aight, but I think if they did that they would have to give her some form of waveclear, since it wouldn't be that good on her RQ. Saaaay, they add back in the shield bomb :P

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol basically, but you would have control of where it detonates. So it would be a lot better for wave clear, because you place where you want it. But yes, I agree with bringing back shield bomb xD

Grief Me Please1 votes

so would this suggestion work like, say, anivia's Q? where it flies out and you can reactivate to make it pop? (except it'll auto pop on champs) or will it work like galio Q, where it's like current projectile and it'll pop wherever you put your cursor? the second one has the problem that karma will do that annoying thing that champs like brand or viktor do, where they move to the location that their spell would be in range of, and then they fire :v

IxtaliKing1 votes

Here < Go to 1.15. It works kinda like the old Frost Queens Claim.

Grief Me Please1 votes

Yah i see If this were to happen, I'd love for it to be cast at max range in you target outside of the max range, ya know? that's all i want :3

IxtaliKing1 votes

I believe it can ;)

Raiokun2 votes

It'd be better if they kept her RE as a DAMAGING ability, instead of just scraping the damage from it completely.

Grief Me Please2 votes

oh yeah 100% it was pretty much the only iconic thing about her (i mean... i guess now Ivern is special >_>) I really wish that they'd bring back the damage. Sure, it was nice, but it was her best waveclear, and a pretty direct nerf to mid karma just so they could reinforce her shield-bot-ness

Raiokun2 votes

I actually wrote a shift load about it all. I'm fairly sure that Riot doesn't want karma in the mid lane anymore, that's why they're nerfing her E and W, while saying 'Hey look we haven't touched her Q though, mid karma still has damage'

I feel like they took the fun parts of karma and put her into other champs. Her RW heal was given to Ekko's ult, and her RE bomb was given to Ivern, which I found to be compete BS

TeCoolMage1 votes

You don't need to buff a champion for it to be meta. Its competition can be nerfed and it can gain better itemization without any changes whatsoever

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

This happens every single season though. Indirect changes mean that Karma's power as a Jill of all Trades makes her way too valuable in all cases. Shielding, Damage, CC, and team mobility.

The Karma community is STILL salty over the "Rework" she got back in season 3, and have been BEGGING for a VGU ever since.

SilverSquid6 votes

Thanks for the feedback, man! I was really worried about a stealth nerf to her true sight! However, you seem to dodge the question on her W ticks. Is this an intended nerf to her passive procs (and trade consistency, for that matter)? And if so, why?

Also is there a reason she still didn't get a range indicator on her W?

MisterShameless2 votes

We really need more Rioters to communicate with Karma mains, we've been kinda ignored in the ingame department and want more commmunication with the balance team. There have been many post by Karma mains left unanswered by Rioters that should be addressed.

Orbit the Sun1 votes

A little off topic, but do you guys have any update yet on the support role update you talked about a month ago?

LBmyBB1 votes

Can we have a tether range indicator, cuz knowing when that thing will break is so hard.

Raiokun1 votes

But not have it while rooted anymore?

IxtaliKing4 votes

Only Riot can provide that insight, and sadly they don't usually give context on Karma changes because they might trigger discussions.

Saianna3 votes

Does almost 10% playrate means from 10 champions in game you see her at least once or once per 10 games?

(If first, then that'd be nerf-worthy)

Maximum Morde1 votes

Once per ten games roughly.

bbQsauçe2 votes

[deleted]

LostFr0st4 votes

Not to mention "tank" Karma -_-

Winterkill1 votes

Which is not how Karma should be played at all. People seem to have a problem with the long duration of the W+R as well.

LostFr0st1 votes

That wouldn't be nearly as obnoxious if she couldn't just sit beside you as a "tank" and spam alternate W and E. Squishy Karma can be convinced to think about staying to tether if you lay on the damage, "tank" not so much... I appreciate that riot lowered the # of ticks in the W damage. It was reducing ulti cd by 6-9 seconds per cast, now that'll be lowered to 4-8. A well thought out nerf that'll give a bit more time between the possible W+R heals.

Winterkill2 votes

She shouldn't have received those buffs to begin with. Everyone can agree on that. Instead of actually working on Karma, they buff her numbers to insane levels and make items that make it ten times worse.

Death by Glamour1 votes

Any reason given for the removal of the reveal?

Maximum Morde1 votes

I don't know it is actually removed, but if it was it was probably because it provided some kind of counter to Vayne disappearing every other second. Couldn't have that.

o0O Madoka O0o1 votes

Stealth reveal is not mentioned in the finalized surrender@20 post. Probably just some confusion in the initial post.

I just did a quick check on op.gg, karma has pretty decent winrate on master+(53%+).

I play Karma occasionally as support, I don't feel the change is going to effect my playing of Karma that much. 1 Less tick of W is going to quick big, but I'm going full CDR build with reasonable low ult CD anyway. It's not the end of the world.

30 Shield value at rank 5 is only going to be impactful after level 9(13 at rank 5), which is already quite late into the game, thus don't bother me at all.

agbudar1 votes

i play karma here and there tbh this will not break her at all not in botlane or in mid.

her main strength is not... wait im not gonna say it might end up getting nerfed too.

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