Lissandra's Base Stats Are Simply Too Low

Sir Rouge··18 votes·8,794 views

Note that numbers are rounded.

Here are her most important base stats: Base Health: 518 Health at level 18 (+87 per level scaling): 1997 Base armor: 20 Armor at level 18 (+3.7 per level scaling): 83 Base AD: 53 Ad at level 18 (+2.7 per level scaling: 99 Base movement speed: 325 Base AA range: 550

**Base stats that deserve to be there: ** Base Health: 518 Base armor: 20

  • These are intended weaknesses. She should be squishy early game. Nothing to change here. Base movement speed: 325
  • This is also an intended weakness. She should be a slow moving, low range mage outside of her E. Base AA range: 550
  • Helps her out with her low range for a mage.

Base stats that do not deserve to be there: Health at level 18 (+87 per level scaling): 1997

  • Lissandra has low HP at level 18, one of the lowest for a mage. She is short ranged and doesn't compare in damage to other mages in the late game. She should at least have top class HP scaling (for a mage) for how close she needs to be to do damage. Armor at level 18 (+3.7 per level scaling): 83
  • Lissandra is more middle of the pack for armor scaling for a mage, but compared to mages more similar to her, she's still at the bottom. She deserves the 4.0 scaling. Base AD: 53. Ad at level 18 (+2.7 per level scaling: 99
  • For her close range, her AA damage should be top class for a mage (it's one of the lowest at level 18 currently for a mage). She deserves the 55 base AD and a better scaling to compare to mages that are similar to her.


In summary, here are the base stats changes I would make to Lissandra:

  • +87 --> +94 HP per level (1997 --> 2116 at level 18);
  • +3.7 --> +4.0 armor per level (83 --> 88 at level 18);
  • 53 --> 55 base AD;
  • 2.7 --> 3.2 AD per level (99 --> 109 at level 18).

These base stats changes would at least help her out a bit before her upcoming passive change.

19 Comments

GigglesO15 votes

Cry me a fucking river.

25 base armor Mordekaiser

Melee, and wearing a suit of armor.

MorganFreemanBot12 votes

{quoted}

Cry me a fucking river.

25 base armor Mordekaiser

Melee, and wearing a suit of armor.

To be fair, Morde also has a fairly insane feedback loop where he gains a shield for doing damage. So the more damage he gets the tankier he comes and the more mileage he gets out of resists.

Not saying Morde doesn't have a huge fucking slew of problems, but he gets pretty tanky pretty fast.

Nyarlathοtep3 votes

Shields work to their full potential when they are coupled with high resistances though.

Vekkna8 votes

I don't think the base MS is ok. When you look at similar light battle-control mages she's the worst by a large margin. Compare to:

Azir Fiddlesticks Ekko Gragas Kennen Morgana Vladimir Swain

NineTailedMystic5 votes

You'll have to change her E for higher base MS

Vekkna2 votes

Why?

Ahri Dashes, hard cc, more burst, longer range Azir Dash, shield, slow, ult cc, more dps, longer range Diana Dashes, shield, aoe hard/soft cc, similar ranges, targeted burst Ekko Dashes, shield/heal, aoe soft cc, targeted burst, gtfo ult, super high MS Gragas Dash, similar damage/ratios, same ult delay, longer range LeeSin Actually has a kit that's surprisingly similar to Liss; trades wave clear for much higher damage, faster execution, more mobility

  • Q = Q
  • Q2 = E
  • WW = W
  • R = R
  • W = R self-cast

These are comparisons, which means they are not identical. Overall, I think these champs are analogous enough to say that Liss can have a base MS higher than 325 without losing E.

IMO, there are enough trade-offs throughout her kit to justify her unique mix of wave clear, aoe, dps, and ult without needing 325 base MS. OP already mentioned her other low base stats. Also, her damage is extremely low unless she stays in short-range combat to land a second Q and lands E (at 850 missile speed, which is tied with Anivia Q for slowest in the game). Lastly, her abilities are average power at early ranks but with exceptionally long cooldowns.

She actually has a pretty huge list of weaknesses. I think it's safe to assume the majority of those are intended to pay the tax on her ult (targeted stun or stasis), and I think most players automatically assume the tax is justified. I agree for the most part.

That said, I think Liss is taxed for both uses of her ult concurrently while losing half the benefit on each ult cast. As OP mentioned, Liss has super low defensive base stats and short range, high risk basic abilities. This is clearly a tax on her stasis ult. On the other hand, her damage is pretty low and takes a lot of skill ranks to ramp up. This is clearly a tax on her stun ult.

IMO, the tax on the stasis is fair, but the tax on the stun is too high for the amount of damage in season 8. I've spammed a lot of Lissandra games lately, and you might be surprised how frequently enemies burst you down in the .5 second stun delay on R. It happens consistently enough that by the end of lane phase I'm almost always self-casting.

For example, I was super caught off guard the other day in a game vs a Kennen. He would fish for Q hits, and when he landed one, he would W then ER. Expecting his engage, I would buffer my ult and it fired off immediately when he was in range, but he stunned me before I stunned him. Here are some other annoying experiences with the enemy-cast ult:

  • Lulu: polymorph before stun
  • Lee: root/knockback during stun
  • Yi: Q negates stun
  • Fizz: E negates stun
  • Kayn: R negates stun
  • Camille: R negates stun
  • Ekko: R negates stun
  • Kled: dismount cancels ult; discovering this did not make for a fun game

Not to mention that most anything with a duskblade and a dash will delete you before the stun goes off.

MuffledGarbage3 votes

Ahri It's her ult. WTF you expect Liss E to be as strong as Ahri ult? Dafuq?

Azir his dash doesn't give him more damage, doesn't give him more safety, requires him to use DOUBLE the mana that Liss E uses up. Until 25 minutes into the game, Azir doesn't out DPS Lissandra. Azir also uses more mana on average until he finishes a mana item AND has fully stacked manaflow band.

Diana is a diver/skirmisher. Not even from the same class as Lissandra but whatever since you feel like comparing them. Liss doesn't outburst Diana after they both finish one item. Diana's CC isn't as good as Lissandra. Liss has WAY more utility than what Diana has. Diana's shield is super conditional and overall Diana is reliant on hitting ONE spell(Q) whilst Lissandra can literally kite forever with her W and Q slow as long as Liss has mana. Diana has innate tankiness while Lissandra only has her ult.

Ekko yet again, is an Assassin/skirmisher. Is not from the same class. Has less consistent utility than Lissandra. Has on-par waveclear with Lissandra. Can get peeled easily by most supports. Is entirely reliant on predicting enemies VS Liss relies on enemies being slower than her. Ekko has almost NOTHING in common with Liss. What even made you think they are similar in their jobs/classes?

Gragas this guy is a tank/mage. He's made to engage and toss enemies around with his barrels while using different barrels to control space and single target-delete opponents when full AP. Lissandra isn't made to toss enemies around. Lissandra is made as a giant AOE CC-bot with damage for cherries on top. Gragas hardly has the same job as Lissandra. Closest relation the two have is 1 movement-related ability and the ability to heal themselves for reliable amounts of health

LeeSin Lee-sin's kit was made primarily for the jungle. Since his kit is "surprisingly similar to Lissandra's" let's see the similarities that you said they had: "trades waveclear for higher damage" one similarity? that's it? That's extremely shallow for wanting to not change Lissandra's E in exchange for a base movement speed buff

Let's check the rest of your reasons, surely there's something that's factual in there: ...

nope... you just stated how most of Lissandra's power-level is put into her ult while saying that you think her base-stats are fine as they are because she trades them off for other things(such as more CC)

Then you restated what the OP said about her having low base stats

and THEN you want a buff to Lissandra's ult. The single thing that takes up PRETTY MUCH ALL THE POWER IN HER KIT, and you want to buff that Sh*t

Please tell me you are joking when you want to buff the SINGLE THING that is keeping Riot from buffing Lissandra...

Now after all that you go on to use Anecdotes and go "k so this stuff happened to me so that is proof that we need to change Lissandra"

for all we know, you might've dived the enemy a bunch and then go "oh look I get bursted down instantly in the time that it takes my stun to go off" when that's physically impossible if you were playing Liss SAFELY, RIGHT, or were at FULL HEALTH

Vekkna4 votes

You seem triggered as fuck and seem to have totally ignored when I said this:

These are comparisons, which means they are not identical. Overall, I think these champs are analogous enough to say that Liss can have a base MS higher than 325 without losing E.

On to your points, which are actually funny.

Azir: his dash doesn't give him more damage, doesn't give him more safety, requires him to use DOUBLE the mana that Liss E uses up.

Azir's E has conditional damage, a shield (literal safety), and costs 60 mana at all ranks. Liss' E costs 80-100 mana. You're actually saying the total opposite of what's true.

Diana: Not even from the same class as Lissandra but whatever since you feel like comparing them.

You realize that it's possible to compare things that aren't identical, right? The categories aren't rigid, and Liss occupies a weird space between a controller, battle mage, and diver.

Ekko: yet again, is an Assassin/skirmisher. Is not from the same class.

Yet again, it's doesn't matter what you call them. The purpose of this comparison was similar Q aoe, large aoe slows, but especially their ults. Liss' ult is really unique, and Ekko's is the most comparable (at least to her self-cast) in terms of the invulnerability, heal, and area damage all on one instant skill.

Gragas: Closest relation the two have is 1 movement-related ability and the ability to heal themselves for reliable amounts of health

They're actually very similar in terms of damage, AP scaling, range, aoe disruption, and high-impact ults. They have a lot of the same functions in a team fight, but one kit synergizes better with tank items and the other with damage items. If you had ever played a LIssandra game, you would probably know.

Lee-sin's kit was made primarily for the jungle. Since his kit is "surprisingly similar to Lissandra's" let's see the similarities that you said they had: "trades waveclear for higher damage" one similarity?

I guess maybe re-read it. I can't read it for you.

and THEN you want a buff to Lissandra's ult. The single thing that takes up PRETTY MUCH ALL THE POWER IN HER KIT, and you want to buff that Sh*t

Please quote the section where I said this.

Please tell me you are joking when you want to buff the SINGLE THING that is keeping Riot from buffing Lissandra...

Please tell me you are joking with all this shit you're making up.

Now after all that you go on to use Anecdotes and go "k so this stuff happened to me so that is proof that we need to change Lissandra"

Examples of why self-cast is more reliable and why tax on the stun isn't worth the benefit. That doesn't mean "buff the ult" it means nerf the stun and compensate by removing the enormous tax that comes with a targeted stun.

when that's physically impossible if you were playing Liss SAFELY, RIGHT, or were at FULL HEALTH

Do you know what duskblade and electrocute are?

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Ahri has 330 base MS, and her primary mobility is tied to her ultimate.

Azir has no excuse to be 335 base ms imo.

Diana, Ekko, Gragas, and Lee are melee. They naturally get higher base MS regardless of kit.

Meanwhile, Lissandra has a blink on a basic ability. You know who else has a blink on a basic ability and has 325 base MS? Ezreal. I didn't say to delete her E either, just make changes to it.

Velzard of Koz5 votes

I think it's due to her being able to blink.

Only Kennen, Gragas and Azir are comparable to it, two of which have shorter dash, one of which has MS buff, during all of which you can throw skillshot at their face while Liss could avoid it due to the nature of the blink.

Also, Ekko is an Assasin and he has his own class of "Don't know why such design sounded like good idea", hardly comparable.

Vekkna4 votes

I get your point, but I think the blink is heavily balanced by the telegraph, missile speed, and risk of being cc'd out of the recast. Azir is probably the best comparison since his destination is also telegraphed by his soldiers. His dash is instant and 1100 range (with short travel time). For Liss to blink 1100 units away, that's a 1.3 second travel time at 850 missile speed.

Just looking at it, Azir's shield + instant cast seem like a perfectly fair tradeoff for it being a dash rather than a blink. Liss having a longer delay, unique visual telegraph, and chance for recast lockout seem like more than adequate tax on the blink.

Also, Ekko is an Assasin and he has his own class of "Don't know why such design sounded like good idea", hardly comparable.

I agree that he's a fucking abomination and a landmark for League jumping the shark. If the design/balance philosophy continues to be a toxic-bullshit arms race in which Ekko is acceptable, I want in on the arms race. I don't want all my champs to be balanced to my standards when Riot's looks at these guys and thinks "this is fine."

Ekko Fiora Fizz Irelia Jax Kaisa Khazix Zed Yasuo

Aimware4 votes

I agree

PhearBunny3 votes

I think they should rework her passive.

Frozen Armor. Reduces damage taken from autoattacks by 20%, slows attackers movespeed and attack speed by 20% for 2seconds.

I dont think she needs damage, I think she needs to be streamlined into being an effective AP tank.

YumaS2Astral6 votes

{quoted}

I think they should rework her passive.

Frozen Armor. Reduces damage taken from autoattacks by 20%, slows attackers movespeed and attack speed by 20% for 2seconds.

I dont think she needs damage, I think she needs to be streamlined into being an effective AP tank.

this would be so OP that it hurts seeing

Also, she IS a mage, she doesn't need to be changed into an AP tank, we already have Galio for that

Aezanthya3 votes

{quoted}

I think they should rework her passive.

Frozen Armor. Reduces damage taken from autoattacks by 20%, slows attackers movespeed and attack speed by 20% for 2seconds.

I dont think she needs damage, I think she needs to be streamlined into being an effective AP tank.

This is broken lol

And î oop2 votes

why everyone want her to be ap tank she is supposed to be burst mage, MAKE her bust mage riot and this is exactly why she is terrible in her role currently cause other burst mages can use 2-3 abilities to kill enemy while she has to use all her abilities and often actives from items to burst one target

Battalion1 votes

It's "middle of the pack" not "middle of the pact", one talks about mediocre, but passable standing within a running; the other is more like she's in the center of a pentagram, with six black candles, and speaking in tongues.

Sir Rouge1 votes

XD That's exactly what I meant, lighting those candles up with her ice.

Thanks, will change it.

(Nothing to see here)

BremerdanGorst1 votes

I like LIssandra but I don't play her much cause I always fuck up the self-cast. She does have low base stats, but I think she has enough tools to mitigate it. Guessing she's not played just cause her E too is slow, allowing for the enemy team to react more easily. I get why that's the case, but it does limit her potential.

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