Riot, Talon needs some serious work. Have you forgotten that he exists?

ZLbSwAR23I··1 votes·780 views

Remember Talon?

He's that champion you created a few years ago. You last gave him a tiny patch in 4.18. Since then, it's like he doesn't exist. It's like you don't want to acknowledge his existence. People say that you like to pretend there's no such thing as Yorick, yet they don't seem to notice how bad Talon has it.

He's been untouched for ages now. The game has changed immensely, yet he hasn't been changed accordingly.

The removal of Crystalline Flask has really hit his early game hard. Now, a melee AD assassin, who has to compete with ranged AP mids, has a much harder time, and it was already hard to begin with.

His late game can still be decent (if he's done enough to let the game actually reach that stage) but he really does need some attention right now.

I suggest making changes to his passive, his W and his E.

Mercy (Innate): Talon's basic attacks deal 10% more damage to any target that is slowed, stunned, immobilized, or suppressed.

This is extremely lacklustre. Yes, it fits well with the theme of Talon, but that's about it. 10% extra situational damage is poor. He can't even take full advantage of it, because the only ability that slows an enemy for any useful amount of time is his W, which is generally used at range. I suggest something like this instead:

Talon's attacks mark his target champion. For 3 seconds afterwards, all damage done to that champion by Talon is increased by 15%. A champion cannot be remarked within 10 seconds.

I feel this would help Talon burst and trade a little easier, while preventing it from being on a single champion constantly would ensure he doesn't aim to prolong his conflicts.

His W, Rake, has quite a high mana cost during its early levels. As I mentioned earlier, the removal of Crystalline Flask has really affected him and his kit, with this ability being the greatest victim. Lowering the mana cost early on, but still having it scale to 80 mana towards the end, could help.

Changes to his passive would require changes to his E, Cutthroat, but it should be changed regardless. I believe it should work with his passive, amplifying damage done to a champion, when used on them, by 120% of his passive at the first level, up to 200% at level five. Increasing the slow duration wouldn't hurt either, but it may be too much.

Overall, the changes I suggested would assist Talon in focusing on one target (like an assassin should be doing). The previous passive was applied to any and all champions, a new passive would have him focusing on one, doing his damage and then dealing with the situation.

Ultimately, I think that something has to be done to give him an easier time in lane and the change to his W would do that. Altering his passive and E would give him a clearer purpose and assist him in what he needs to do.

17 Comments

MasterSomething4 votes

Oh no, he's doing just fine. It's hard to NOT find a game without him in it. His kit is also perfect- AD Assassination. He's just good at doing it to multiple people. Besides, the early cost is high to prevent it from abusing its poking power. He is really balanced right now. There is no need to change him, and the 10% damage is really good, especially in teamfights. Saying that "situational" damage is weak is like saying that Shaco's "Situational" damage is weak.

HaIlMonitor2 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Talon/Middle he has a 3% play rate. So you are just really "lucky" at seeing talon all the time. That or you play hundreds of games a week so the 9 times you see him seems liek alot.

MasterSomething1 votes

Considering there is over 100 champions, that's not that bad, considering half of the champs have very similar play rates. See Varus- Fun champ, balanced kit, see him slightly often, only 2% play rate.

ZLbSwAR23I1 votes

It certainly isn't "hard to NOT find a game without him in it" though. He's uncommon.

Plus, the 10% damage is not good. At all. Where as Shaco has control over how he uses his passive, Talon doesn't really. As I've said before, the only ability that he can use to proc Mercy is his W, and that's predominately a ranged poke, so he'll be out of attack range.

junglerboy163 votes

I'll try to meet you point for point on this:

  • First, the majority of good Talon players never started/had to start Crystaline flask anyway. Longsword and pots was better. Now, they start longsword and either biscuits (since any assassin can get those without going into a previously bad mastery tree) or a refillable potion that can be upgraded into a corrupting potion. His early game is just as strong/weak as ever.

  • His Passive is actually a large part of why he is so bursty. It stacks multiplicatively with his E damage amp, and it allows his max range Ws to deal bonus damage with the second hit. Additionally, whenever he goes in for an actual assassination, he is already directly on top of his target and his E and W both apply his passive for an easy burst of damage from Mercy. I feel like his passive is incredibly underrated and most people complaining about it don't realize how good it actually is. Your idea isn't bad, but it would hinder his lane trading a fair bit (since his W harass would be weaker, and it would also hurt his wave clear a lot since he can't get the damage amp vs minions or monsters either.

  • Ok, the mana buff for his W sounds like a fair (and relatively minor) buff. I think something like 50/55/60/65/70 from 60/65/70/75/80 would be fair. Anything lower than that early on would be too much for his early game (since mana gating is the healthiest way to keep him in check early on).

  • Increasing the slow duration seems like overkill. He already has his W for a long term slow, and 0.25 seconds is pretty long for 99% slow coming from an assassin. I like the idea of changing the damage amp to scale based off of his passive, but I don't like your idea for a new passive, so they don't really mesh too well. Maybe if you tweaked your idea for the passive a bit the whole thing could work, I just think it should still be able to affect any target, just having some other way to gate how its used other than an arbitrary CD.

Overall, I'm not really sure he needs this right now. He has amazing synergy with the new Youmuu's (it gives SO much raw AD it is insane) which in itself is a major buff to his early game since it gives him a lot for a single independent item. The removal of flask doesn't really hurt him as much as you seem to think, and his burst combo is just as bursty as it has always been.

l MinimumWage l2 votes

{quoted}

I'll try to meet you point for point on this:

  • First, the majority of good Talon players never started/had to start Crystaline flask anyway. Longsword and pots was better. Now, they start longsword and either biscuits (since any assassin can get those without going into a previously bad mastery tree) or a refillable potion that can be upgraded into a corrupting potion. His early game is just as strong/weak as ever.

Sorry to say but talon's mana costs are too huge to not start with flask or as I have done personally, long sword with 3 mana pots. His kit is easy to poke and not get hit, but his damage early game is trash which is what helps to make him balanced (he needed to get like 4 full dmg W's before trying to engage with an ignite kill). Without mana sustain, he has no place in lane.

  • His Passive is actually a large part of why he is so bursty. It stacks multiplicatively with his E damage amp, and it allows his max range Ws to deal bonus damage with the second hit. Additionally, whenever he goes in for an actual assassination, he is already directly on top of his target and his E and W both apply his passive for an easy burst of damage from Mercy. I feel like his passive is incredibly underrated and most people complaining about it don't realize how good it actually is. Your idea isn't bad, but it would hinder his lane trading a fair bit (since his W harass would be weaker, and it would also hurt his wave clear a lot since he can't get the damage amp vs minions or monsters either.

you clearly don't know how his passive works. CC's amplify his BASIC attacks, not his abilities, to which talon does NOT basic attack aside from his Q engage. Any more than that and he will die, that's why his ult gives him invisibility, burst in and out. His passive is useless, 10% more dmg on his Q, and if you're about to die then also on your next auto attack or two.

MasterSomething1 votes

Considering he'll build up to around 300 AD, get a lot of crit with the new items, and gives his Q even MORE damage, not to mention he also has a second damage amp on his E, Talon's passive is not useless. Talon's mana costs, with any champion, are easier to manage with more skill. For example: Give me a Lulu and a decent ADC, and I will never run out of mana. And Lulu has a shit ton of mana costs. Give me a shit ADC I need to save constantly, however, and I will be oom before 6 minutes.

ZLbSwAR23I1 votes

Talon's passive is useless, mate. Read above.

MasterSomething1 votes

I did read above, but it's not useless. It's really good at trading in lane, or even faster assassination of squishies.

ZLbSwAR23I1 votes

Nice response. Thanks.

ZLbSwAR23I1 votes

One guy has already replied to your post so I won't repeat what he says.

These were just suggestions. Increasing the slow duration would probably be too much.

His passive is poor. 10% damage isn't a great increase. 10% situational damage is even worse. As I explained earlier, the only ability that Talon has which can really make use of his passive is his W and that's usually used as a ranged poke, so even that rarely uses his passive. As an assassin, I believe his passive should have him focusing on one target, killing them, and then getting out/going again. Changing the passive to mark a single target would assist in this.

junglerboy161 votes

Again, I said it would be a decent idea, it just needs work from the form you've suggested is all.

Hencho1011 votes

if the mana on W went down it would make him poke WAY to much, i like the passive change but that with his E is just WAY to much damage. the E is fine, thats what giving talon his burst

ZLbSwAR23I1 votes

I wasn't suggesting halving it, but reducing it by 10-20 mana at the start and still scaling up to 80. You wouldn't want him spamming it. There needs to be a balance so that he has to pick the best moment to use it, whether to farm or to poke (or, in most cases, both). Lowering it too much would remove the need for this judgement. As it stands, however, the mana cost (with the removal of flask and mana pots) means that Talon has to be a little too reluctant to use his W.

Droogzy1 votes

Personally, I just think he needs mana cost reduction and he'd be fine, he's such a cool assassin theme wise, it would be a shame to ignore him.

ZLbSwAR23I1 votes

With item changes, he's taken a hit to his overall strength as well as his survivability in early game. I think the passive change I've listed would help him out.

A mana cost reduction on his W is badly needed, though.

Gigahappytown1 votes

talon was a solid champ but the pre-season killed him

its WAY harder to get crit on a assassins while having lots of raw ad

and crit is mandatory on talon since his q crits deal more damage than rake and shadow assasult combined.

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