A Case For Generalists

Chaos Milk Tea··7 votes·697 views

Normally I'm on Riot's side when it comes to design philosophies, but this time I'm actually going to make a case against them. My intention is to provide you with a new perspective and maybe even generate some good discussion on the subject.

To be clear, I dont think generalist champions, that is champions who have multiple proficiencies to offer their team, are unhealthy for league of legends. To explain my perspective, I will have to provide an example using another game: Pokemon. For those who are not aware, Pokemon has a vibrant competitive scene based in smogon.com that prides itself in setting up a ruleset and banlist that creates a diverse and competitive metagame. Despite being a turn based game without a map, combat in Pokemon is actually surprisingly similar to league of legends. You assemble a team of characters, each having stats and customizable builds. They have different roles, strengths, weaknesses, counters, etc. It even has a two damage type and resistance split. (Yes Pokemon has true damage, no it is not broken.) Matchups between Pokemon (that is who counters who) stems from factors like typing, speed, what kind of damage they deal or resist, and the utility moves they have access to. You may pick a Pokemon like Latios for his high speed and special damage, understanding that a wall like chansey with incredible special defense and self healing will force him to switch out. A lot of Pokemon team building is based on these principles: "What threats do I need to deal with, and what threats stop my team?" It happens to a lesser extent in league of legends as well, despite the teams being comprised of random people: "Do we have a tank? We have too much AP. Ill pick Darius to counter Nasus."

In the earlier days of competitve Pokemon, you could not see an opponent's team untill they individually revealed every pokemon by sending them out to fight. You may not know wether your opponent had the counters to your Pokemon until they made a surprise double switch that put you in a compromising position. The information battle was its own special layer of depth, but all that changed in generation 5" where teams were previewed before a match much like in league of legends. Suddenly the game had a much more chess like feel due to the increased information, but people were also finding that they couldnt as easily bluff their way out of a bad matchup. You knew who had the counters to who's pokemon, who had the advantage, and exactly which threats had to be eliminated in order to clinch the match. A new concept was introduced: "Losing at team preview." Players could make educated guesses as to their chances of success based on how the teams matched up. It was also the generation that started the big power creep, and brought in a whopping 150 new monsters! Players were starting to find threats that were either more specialized in their role, or were able to decently check/counter mutiple threats at once! In addition, with each subsequent generation of Pokemon, the number of viable and niche monsters continued to grow, making it increasingly difficult to keep up with all these new threats. If the number of characters that can counter your team go up, but you cant increase the number of characters on your team, what is left to do?

Enter Landorus. In his Therian form, Landorus was capable of walling nearly half of physical threats in the metagame if not more. With his incredible attack stat, he could also threaten most non defensive Pokemon even without offensive invesent. He was even capable of supporting the team with utility moves. Very quickly, Landorus was on most Pokemon teams. Why wouldnt you play an offensive utility wall? He consolidated two roles on your team and gave you room for another specialized threat. Landorus was never banned though. Despite his incredible versatility, Landorus was considered to have enough soft checks and to not be oppressive. In fact, the community embraced blanket checks. Very quickly Pokemon were finding new multi role builds, and new more capable threats didnt tear up the metagame as feared. New generalist Pokemon entered the metagame as well with subsequent geneartions. The generalist Pokemon were holding the ever expanding game together.

To summarize, generalist characters prevent a game from being decided at the loading screen. They ease the building of team compositions in an ever expanding game, and make checks and counters less important than how you actually play the game. Lastly they create more room on teams for hyper specialized roles and allow specialized characters to better express their primary strength.

But hey, that doesnt make it right for every game! Agree? Disagree? Comment below. Provide your pespective. Discuss!

14 Comments

NavyDivea3 votes

Eh, I was going to read this but as soon as I saw a comparison to smogon I lost interest. Smogon is nothing but a bunch of self important elitist that bans anything that threatens their Meta and creates a stagnant competitive environment where nothing changes based on nothing but conjecture.

Chaos Milk Tea1 votes

Smogon is the largest competitive Pokemon community as far as I know, and so I believed it would be the best source to cite to prove the existence of cometitive Pokemon apart from vgc. While I dont always agree with them, I do admire their consistency of maintaining their philosophies (for better or for worse) in defining and developimg their metagame. While it is good to remain flexible and be open to new ideas, many game designers have no methodologies, or very lousy ones that disregard competition.

Teridax682 votes

Reading through this, I get the feeling that, in the example you mentioned, generalist characters ended up working well because the entire competitive environment ended up changing around them, as more picks expanded to occupy multiple roles, just like Landorus. In League, this would be the equivalent of giving every champion enough tools to occupy multiple niches, which is technically possible, but massively costly in development resources and tremendously disruptive to the game as a whole. Older champions have been made somewhat more versatile through reworks, but in order to give everyone the same amount of tools as generalists like Elise, Jayce, Lee Sin, Thresh, etc., that would come at the cost of making some simpler champions much more complicated. Pokémon's combat is simpler than League's, but that in itself is the reason why it's easier to change the rules there than on here.

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

The simple fact of the matter is that for generalists to be balanced, they need to have no particular strengths either. To use your example with Landorus, the reason why he didn't get banned is because even though he could wall a huge number of 'mons and had good utility moves, because of 4MSS you couldn't really do both as well as you could had you had two separate 'mons dedicated to their roles of utility and physical wall. Skarmory is a better physical wall than Lando-T, for example, because it specializes in its role.

I'll give you another example of a generalist pokemon that was banned- Aegislash. Aegislash, for those who may not be aware, had two forms- "Sword Form" which had very high offensives stats (barring speed) and "Shield Form" which had very high defensive stats. You could swap between these at will by using either offensive or defensive moves- some of which would have adjusted priority to allow Aegislash to effectively have the high offensive stats of its Sword Form and the high defensive stats of its Shield Form. In addition, its typing of Steel/Ghost left it with an impressive number of resistances and immunities that made it an exceptionally difficult 'mon to take down. It got to the point where people commonly ran specific 'mons that were otherwise considered weak just for the purpose of taking out Aegislash.

Aegislash was a generalist- it could be both a wallbreaker, a damage dealer, or a wall itself, a tank. The problem was it could do both at the same time, and just as well as a lot of other tanks too.

And that's the problem with generalists, at least in League. If they're balanced properly, they can't do anything spectacular that a specialist champion can't do better, because if they can, they become not like Therian Landorus, but like Aegislash, and there becomes little reason to bring anything else as they define the meta around them.

Sire Hippington1 votes

The problem was it could do both at the same time,

that is the cure of your issue. However, it is well possible to get champions flixible enough to perform in multiple roles without haveing them doing it all at the same time. Kayne is a good example, But mostly it can be done with item builts and item synergie - and this is where riot really dropped the ball. Since S5,They streamline champions into specific builts fitting one playstyle/role. Most tanks had the option to go ap bruiser, but their reworks did gut their ratio so it's no longer a viable option. Ap is generaly removed from non-mages, skirmishers get pushed into glasscannon builts. If you have alternate builts and playstyles for champions, you will have fallback options vs hardcounters or when the rest of the team picks a compt that doesn't fit, even if they are generaly a bit less effective than the primary styl. The current way of haveing strong niches for everyone but no options just leads to very high impact of pick/ban aswell as binary scenarios in game. What league needs is different options for each champ, so they can't do it all at once, but still can adjust to the situation and aren't simply screwed from champselect on.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

I agree- Kayn is a good example of what a generalist should be- particularly because once he picks either Shadow Assassin or Darkin form, he's locked into it for the rest of the game- he can't change his role any further. He also pays for the power that he gets from this with a relatively weak early game; lacking the strengths of either.

You can also play around Kayn at the meta level- building a comp that only has one melee champion (let's say, Kha'zix), then build a comp that would ideally force him into Darkin form. Now Kayn has to basically focus on Kha'zix, who has a much better early game, or delay his transformation powerspike by 4 minutes, a veritable eternity.

A champion that is capable of filling more than one role should excel at neither, unless they have to choose which to use and are locked into it, like Kayn, which is my point.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I'm saying this since a long time. Haveing niches and clear strengths and weaknisses sounds like a good thing at first, but it comes at a price, so going to far with it is no good idea either. If champs have to strong niches, to Exeggerated strngths and weaknesses, their worst and best case differ alot, resulting in either pick/ban decideing the game by a large amount, or adding extra levels off snowball(if you are ahead, especially in mapcontroll, it's much easier to play around your strength while abuseing the weaknesses of your opponents, so you get a huge power advantage that exeeds the mere gold/xp lead) Alot(though by far not all) of the stompy experience since S6 boils down to the champ(and to some extend item) design than is so hard focused on niches aswell as strengths and weaknesses since ~S5, causeing games to go downhill from champselect already, while also many champs just feel usless if countered or behind, while others get REALLY opressive in the right situation.


Another similar case is counterplay. Yes, the idea of more counterplay sounds great at first, but it again comes at a price. More counterplay means less reliabillity. But more so, Countterplay is generally more selective. Most counterplay in league boils down to one of threethings

  • it's a skillshot and can be avoided by moveing
  • windowed power that can be countered by disengageing and when reengageing once it's on cd
  • Beeing a channled effect, so getting out of the aoe/range or useing hard CC helps
  • and kinda as bonus, beeing short ranged so keeping distance solves the issue

Now, the thing is, beeing mobile helps at useing counterplay IN ALL CASES Beeing Ranged Helps in MOST cases, as most skillshots give more time to react at bigger distance, and geting out of range in case of channles like nunus Ult is more easy if you never were close to beginn with, while it's naturally easy to keep distance vs low ranged stuff while still doing shit your self. CC also play a big role, it helps with disengageing, breaking channles and keeping distance, but it also removes/reduces the abillity to counterplay from it's victims. As a result, mobillity and range and to a lesser degree CC(since most cc is linked to coutnerplay these days aswell, **reliable **hard cc is VERY valuable) become more valuable the less reliabiility we have, as those things make it much easier to (ab)use counterplay. Anyone that faced a good Riven as Sion should have decent idea of what i'm talking about, as she either interupts your Q with CC or dashes out of it with no effort at all. As a result, champs tha lack those things generally struggle and need enormous number buffs to stay relevant. People cry mobillitie creep all day long, yet at the same time they want to slap counterplay on all and everything, apparently completely unaware off the fact that high counterplay generally Increases the vlaue of mobillity quite alot.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

Generalists are not a bad thing, but they tend to crowd out their competition when they become better or as good as the specialists, and with the course of balancing, that will eventually happen, causing them to oppress us really hard. No one really had a problem with the generalists until they did their job better, or as good as, the actual specialists.

AwesomeGuyDj1 votes

The difference here in league though is, there are no "hard counters" only slight advantages that give you an edge in the skill matchup.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

there are no "hard counters" only slight advantages that give you an edge in the skill matchup.

Maybe in botlane, but in top/mid there are definitely "hard counters" or at the very least matchups that are going to make you want to tear your fingernails out with rusty tongs.

For example, Anivia is a hard counter to Vladimir. Especially post-6, Vlad can't even walk into lane without eating a huge amount of damage from Anivia while having next to no recourse, and Vlad can't sustain through the pressure that Anivia puts out simply by existing. Anivia's passive also more or less negates Vlad's big all-in play of E-Flash-RQW by being a revive passive.

Another example is Darius, who is basically a hard counter to Maokai top. Darius will always win trades with Maokai unless Darius is AFK or has 1000 MS, and Maokai can't farm or push the wave as well as Darius.

AwesomeGuyDj1 votes

I cant comment on the anivia vlad thing, dont play either or much mid. But i can say this, Maokai isn't meant to win lane, he's a tank. Their laning phases are weak.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Sion vs Riven.

Prepare to suffer for daring to lane against her.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

Or Vlad vs literally anyone who either outranges him or has lower CD damage.

Now that I think about it, Vlad stomps the champions he does well against, but is in turn stomped by the champions he does poorly against.

AccountaBilabudy1 votes

Morgana The most generalist champion there is. CC, damage, shielding, wave clear, Not super strong at any of them, but good at them all. Although I guess she CAN be strong at CC if you actually land a Q + Ult.

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