I don't get why riot nerfs champions so carefully

BoilTheOil··5 votes·1,599 views

My boy Twitch over here has been strong all season yet riot doesn't want to nerf him because "uh were looking into it maybe next patch gotta be cautious though" If you hit a champion too hard just buff them the next patch I don't understand its not that hard.

14 Comments

Novalas8 votes

Hey dude. To preface my response, I'm a Playtester rather than a Designer so I'll give you a response to this to the best of my ability.

The process of buffing/nerfing a champion is a lot more complicated than it seems to be on the outskirts, namely that we don't necessarily look at just the champions win rate to determine whether or not the champion is problematic and is in need for buffs/nerfs.

Speaking of Twitch specifically, Twitch is a champion that has almost always had a 50%+ win rate in solo queue (though the play rate has frequently been lower) due to the nature of his kit (providing gank pressure, AoE damage in late game teamfights, etc). He's a champion that has had that as his "resting" win rate because of what he provides to the team on the assumption that he gets past where he is normally punished (his early game). He's recently been put moreso in the spotlight with all the focus on bottom lane and the strengths in bottom lane with the current meta, namely the fact that it's harder to punish his weak point as effectively because of Ardent & Enchanter supports keeping him alive. Due to the nature of Twitch and how his resting win rate has always been so high, we're not sure if we want to nerf him due to the fact that the meta may be completely upended with the preseason Runes Reforged update.

Altonius Amakiir1 votes

Can you pass on my thanks for finally putting item set changes in the patch notes, I've been asking for that for a long time now, very happy it happened.

Lucifer8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vb9GJNmX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-11T03:29:32.922+0000)

Hey dude. To preface my response, I'm a Playtester rather than a Designer so I'll give you a response to this to the best of my ability.

The process of buffing/nerfing a champion is a lot more complicated than it seems to be on the outskirts, namely that we don't necessarily look at just the champions win rate to determine whether or not the champion is problematic and is in need for buffs/nerfs.

Speaking of Twitch specifically, Twitch is a champion that has almost always had a 50%+ win rate in solo queue (though the play rate has frequently been lower) namely due to the nature of his kit (providing gank pressure, AoE damage in late game teamfights, etc). He's a champion that has had that as his "resting" win rate because of what he provides to the team on the assumption that he gets past where he is normally punished (his early game). He's recently been put moreso in the spotlight with all the focus on bottom lane and the strengths in bottom lane with the current meta, namely the fact that it's harder to punish his weak point as effectively because of Ardent & Enchanter supports keeping him alive. Due to the nature of Twitch and how his resting win rate has always been so high, we're not sure if we want to nerf him due to the fact that the meta may be completely upended with the preseason Runes Reforged update.

A champion stealth nuking your entire team isn't healthy for the game. Whether ardent is strong or not. He's reached permaban at high elo. I dislike your logic, because it shows a lot of favoritism. Why nerf any champion at all if they'll be drastically changed in the pre season with runes?

Kaìju2 votes

I feel the meta won't change though because new runes don't really make enchanters any less enchanty, and bot lane will still give two kills, first tower, and first dragon. As long as that much gold is up for grabs I feel the meta won't change much, all nerfs and buffs will do is change how that gold is grabbed. But also Twitch is pretty annoying to play against with how not weak his early game is with enchanters.

Penns1 votes

So Twitch being overpowered is fine because his win rate is always good? :/ lul

Poske1 votes

HE HAS BEEN PICK OR BAN FOR MONTHS NOW

And he was nowhere near being bad pick once you changed hurricane into a crit item.

He has been OP / frequent ban ever since you gave him stealth resset and that was like what? 8 months ago?

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

a) Because the goal isn't to make a champion super weak with nerfs, but just bring them back in line, and b) (less so) so they don't make more work for themselves by constantly making and then undoing changes

BoilTheOil1 votes

doesnt mean the change will 100% fail and with twitches case he won't be weak if they nerf him

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

But you are suggesting just make a change, and not worry about it being too harsh.

Additionally, they are being hesitant with any big balance changes as preseason is right around the corner, and that'll turn everything on it's head.

SwiftKitten882 votes

the sad part is when they intentionally/directly nerf somone... they barely touch them

but riot completly ingores all the indirect MASSIVEs nerfs they do to champsions..

the most obvious (and i am likely going to use this example forever)

was the post worlds2016 Nidalee nerf

riot basically did a yeah we hear you about nidalee " here is your placebo increase kitty skills from 5 seconds to 6 seconds placebo nerfs that drops her winrate 1.5%"

THE NEXT PATCH with the removal of strength of the ages, AND the complete and utter gutting of item 3116 nidalee's winrate drops TEN MORE PERCENT. down to 38% and tied for the lowest winrate in the HISTORY of league (at that time, i think Rengar and Ryze have now beaten that and gone back up since them)

i mean not only did they tell us about the removal of SOA MONTHS before hand.. giving me PLANTY of time to point out ro riot on SEVERAL occations that.. "hey guys the next best matery after SOA is thunderlords" which evey nid taking thunderlods has an EIGHT PERCENT lower winrate" she is going to need some SERIOUS compensation buffs when u remove SOA"

but riot is in lala land the whole damn time and apprently didnt notice that by cutting nid's ONLY usable keystone and by GUTTING her CORE item. he winrate drops.

and guess what is happening RIGHT NOW

RUNES REFORGED

i am telling riot RIGHT NOW.. NIDALEE CANNOT CLEAR THE JUNGLE WITH ONLY 10 AP. SHE CANT DO IT... IT'S TOO SLOW, TOO DANGEROUS, and any opponent can easily invade you and completely remove you from the game

i an no longer just using my 99% accurate nidalee change predictions because i know knows kit inside and out with well over 1k games on her. i have PERSONALLY VERIFIED THIS ON PBE.

SHE CANNOT CLEAR THE JUNGLE!!!!

an this is my giving riot OVER a months notice.

BUT WILL THEY DO ANYTHING? i doubt it.. they didn't use my data last time.. i have no exception they will this time.

and i predict nidalee with be unusable about a good 2-6 months after runes reforged.

until someone at riot plays a SINGLE NIDALEE GAME, and realizes that this shit is impossible to do with only 10 ap.

Anei Neko1 votes

Did you run her on PBE? Because they're changing base ability values, changing jungle items, changing camp stats, BECAUSE of the loss of raw stats from runes.

Novalas2 votes

Just to follow up on this post, we've played Nidalee internally ( in fact, I've been a Nidalee main in previous seasons ). She clears at very similar speeds and with similar health, especially if splashing resolve for Iron Skin & Revitalize. We've had very solid success with her in our diamond+ playtests.

edit: for further clarification, Nidalee has had success running Sorcery (Phase Rush) + Domination splash, Domination (Electrocute) + Sorcery splash, Domination (Electrocute) + Resolve splash, and Inspiration (Glacial Augment) + Sorcery splash. So lots of options for her as well. :P

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vb9GJNmX,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-10-11T04:28:05.346+0000)

Just to follow up on this post, we've played Nidalee internally ( in fact, I've been a Nidalee main in previous seasons ). She clears at very similar speeds and with similar health, especially if splashing resolve for Iron Skin & Revitalize. We've had very solid success with her in our diamond+ playtests.

edit: for further clarification, Nidalee has had success running Sorcery (Phase Rush) + Domination splash, Domination (Electrocute) + Sorcery splash, Domination (Electrocute) + Resolve splash, and Inspiration (Glacial Augment) + Sorcery splash. So lots of options for her as well. :P

i REALLY appreciate this post... (like you truely have no idea how much i do) i hope that some of the issue i am having i packet loss on the pbe server. (which haste wont solve becuase they dont go to pbe server, only live :/)

however.. i dont use the "diamond + clear route" which is normally a 3 camp clear into an invade. which also takes both posts very early and sometimes starts red.

i run currently 0/18/12

and i get heal 2nd.

even as a nidalee main i havent been very comfortable doing a clear directly from Q to W enough though i know that woudl be ideal.

it just frankly too dangerous. even on the live servers.

not every nidalee player is "diamond +" despite that being the only elo she eve reaches 49%.

i have played nidalee since season 3. even if it IS possible to do her clear with the new runes. its TREMENDOUSLY harder and a lot of that requires stutter stepping which i cannot for the life of my do which is why i dont play adc.

idk if its possible for you to do some lower elo testing (or rather higher ping if that is possible) with around 80 average ping the pbe clear is VERY hard to do.

KazeNekochan1 votes

How about in top lane though ;)

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