Adding skill expression and new angles to Xin Zhao made him a better champ

chipndip1·Oct 2, 2017·87 votes·7,777 views

Solid 51% win rate and 7% play rate in Diamond. Respectable stats for a fighter character. Well done work.

50 Comments

RiotXenogenicOct 2, 201742 votes

Thank you :)

Passed along the feedback to the rest of the team that worked with me on Xin Zhao as well, in case they don't see the thread.

PennsOct 2, 20175 votes

you guys should rework fizz next for me imo [vlad-salute]

RottedApplesOct 3, 20171 votes

I was playing xin before the rework as my go to jungler since i didn't feel like playing anyone else. He still feels like xin, he's just got an extra tool or two and feels fun and exciting to play just as before.

VerxintOct 3, 20172 votes

I'm genuinely impressed at how adding just one relatively simple skill made so much of a difference for him.

Also XinZhao Taric bot lane is legit

crippler38Oct 3, 201719 votes

They'll make a man out of you.

TerozuOct 3, 201710 votes

And then Taric will make a girl out of you.

crippler38Oct 3, 20171 votes

Ow.

VerxintOct 3, 20179 votes

Taric Let's climb that mountain XinZhao Here's a tip - and a spear behind it! Taric Let me show you something

cocacolalipsOct 3, 20172 votes

I'm more interested to know how he is doing in diamond 4 and above for players who put 50-100-150-200 games worth of time to master him.

Xin Zhao has always been hot garbage in high mmr games, like garen level of bad. even tho their average win rates don't explicitly show it because they are easy to pick up, they were the worst champions in the game when mastered.

while your changes were obviously good for him, they probably didn't change a whole lot in that regard, and my guess, he is still really bad at that elo, maybe not as bad as garen but at least as bad as wukong.

although it's most likely too early too tell unless you have ways to track that kind of stuff at riot already?

TerozuOct 3, 20171 votes

Give my regards to whoever reworked Kat too, the added skill expression is amazing. I love not having to read; "yeah but ur kat no skill".

MalchaOct 3, 20171 votes

Been meaning to give you a shout after we talked on twitter for a bit.

I love it. I think there are some things that need to be worked out with itemization, but I also think the upcoming runes and masteries will really bring things into perspective.

With hundreds of games on old Xin, I can honestly say I'm happy with this rework. He feels better in most ways and I'm learning to make great use of his ult.

I do think, some power needs to be funneled back into to Q, it FEELS really bad at the moment, Have you thought about using a ramp up mechanic to bolster the damage a bit? (Something along the lines of Morde?). The focus on bonus AD and Attack Speed makes for some tough decisions and makes his itemization feel a little more unclear.

A small part of the issue may also have something to do with the change in the animation. It's not as jarring, which is weird to say, the animations almost feel to smooth, and I think that visually translates to a sense that those blows are not as "powerful" as his regular auto attacks. My only gripe with several games is that his ult doesn't yield much in actual duels, only team encounters. Which I get, however it seems odd that a champ who's focus is isolation and dueling, doesn't become more fearsome for succeeding in isolation. Have you guys thought about increasing his effectiveness on challenged targets? Possibly in the form of bonuses to his passive? Then giving challenge a cooldown on switching targets?

Anywho, aside from what I feel are relatively small issues, you guys did a great job. I'm looking forward to continuing to main XinZhao into the new season and seeing how he develops from here.

Thanks

Malcha

DarkKumaneOct 3, 20171 votes

We see your name at the top.. [sg-lux-2]

MalchaOct 4, 20171 votes

Totally meant to to do that. Gotta make sure it sticks

[sg-miss-fortune]

LXIIOct 4, 20171 votes

Allow me to thank you as well. Since the rework I've put in plenty of games on him and he's easily my favorite champion right now. Gonna be tough to balance my love for him and Eve once she's out for a month and not being banned, but I'll make it work.

RiotRiot SotereOct 2, 201730 votes

Appreciate it. I'll pass the word on to the main designer on the project. :)

Think it was a risk to modify his gameplay so straight AA'ing people down isn't always the best call but so far we're happy to see how it's settling . We will keep a close watch on him and make sure he continues to deliver on his fantasy.

chipndip1Oct 2, 20179 votes

This is honestly the type of approach I wish you took on Sona, Annie, Leona...quite a few of the "small" reworks, honestly. I spam the boards constantly about reworking simpler champs in ways that help them keep up with the game. Things like this and the Warwick VGU are exactly what I'm talking about. People seem so afraid of change, especially when they see "skill shots" involved, but they don't realize that that variance allows for greater reward in ways that weren't possible. This rework was a job well done. Only downside is that there's not more of this type of work for other champs.

WheatloafOct 3, 20174 votes

It's not even that this fixed all of Xin's problems; it just worked wonders for his state despite being relatively low-budget work. I'm actually interested in seeing the champ in my games for the first time in... ever, really.

Blue Moon WolfOct 3, 20174 votes

Would love to see the same done for Wukong seeing as his skill expression is about where old Xin was. I feel like he has a lot of potential to do some really cool things outside of being a free 5 man Knock up during teamfights and would really love to see what could be done with him.

YuGiHoOct 3, 20173 votes

or maybe nunu

Blue Moon WolfOct 3, 20173 votes

Nunu is a better candidate for a VGU then a GU. In fact I'd say if not the next champ after Swain, then at LEAST the champ after that. He really could use some work in every department and it would be a good way to make him feel relevant in game and in the lore at the same time, not to mention his older skins could get cool new effects.

DoozkuOct 3, 20175 votes

I haven't played him yet but I've seen a lot of people say that he's actaully really good rn. I had my worries mainly because his W reminded me of Rengar Q and Sej W which are both kits that failed but it actually kinda worked here.

But just as a request, please don't put this double swing abilties on more champions unless they're skarner or something. It worked on Xin but it failed on two other champions before. I really don't like these kind of spells and I've been seeing riot putting these things on a lot of reworks and idk, one of my favorite champions got ruined from this kind of mechanic so I'm always going to be very cautious when you guys add these things. But you know what, it could work i guess. The ability seems like a perfect fit on skarner but on some champions it just feels kinda awkward so at least be careful on who you tack these spells on.

AbyssphereOct 3, 20176 votes

FYI, you personally disliking a kit doesn't make it a failure. Sejuani has settled very comfortably into the meta, has more skill expression than before and is more popular than she's ever been (yes, she's broken, but she wasn't this popular when broken in the past). Rengar you can argue for given his contentious balance history and newfound lack of popularity.

TerchioOct 3, 20175 votes

Hi. Negative Nancy here.

So when was a high win rate with a high pick rate in the first week ever the sign of a healthy champ? I don't think he's even scratched out his true meta just yet.

Not going to say he's flawed yet, as he's at least managed to not get quite absurd utility like most other new/reworked champions. However, I do feel new Xin has covered all his old weaknesses (new poke, sustain scales in early levels without investment, disengage, more guaranteed effectiveness when ultimate is up) without really relinquishing any strengths. He needed help, but at least before the whole cast gets inevitably reworked, I think he might stand out for a good while.

chipndip1Oct 3, 20172 votes

I don't think he's gonna spike five miles up in win rate. He's still mostly Xin Zhao. Xin mains aren't gonna take forever to get used to the new tools since this is a mini-rework, not a full VGU. He needed some help and he got it so he's got a niche other divers don't have: He's not great for grand five mile dives into the enemy back line, but he's a fight initiating diver that's good at holding up against back line damage.

With that framing, Xin's rework carves out something for him to be as opposed to other divers, with a clear weakness and clear strengths. That's good enough for me. If he's too strong or weak later, they can tweak the numbers and I imagine he'll be alright.

GrievousFetusOct 2, 20174 votes

The unique ult was a fantastic idea and I hope Riot continues to introduce unique utility to future and past champs alike to prevent kit overlap and preserve strategic diversity.

RockmanOct 3, 20173 votes

I'm dissapointed his skill ranks ups are so garbage. Nice to have something to deal with ranged tho.

ZedexOct 3, 20173 votes

You say that now.

Fully expect him to be discovered as "the best" for the current patch soon.

XxxLumberJackxxXOct 2, 20172 votes

Only,played one game with him. Feels completely different. Idk maybe I suck

patmax17Oct 2, 20172 votes

Sorry for the stupid question: I didn't have the time to try him out yes (except once in aram), did his play pattern really change that much? If so, I'm glad, I think he was one of the flattest champs to play. I get that the ult gives him more mastery and stuff to play around, but isn't his pattern still E->everything else? If so, why not?

Thanks ^^

kitcat300Oct 3, 20172 votes

Its more like E->Q, then fish for well placed W's.

Poking people just out of range, slowing then to keep them close, it's given him some versatility.

jama655Oct 3, 20172 votes

is the rioters name work?

iPooUnicornsOct 3, 20172 votes

One thing that kind of irks me about the changes is that they pretty much force him to build attack speed to be effective. Without attack speed, you're going to have a tough time getting a knock up off later in the game even when landing W perfectly. I think if Riot added a small attack speed buff when Xin hits an enemy champion with his W would alleviate this issue without making him too powerful.

chipndip1Oct 3, 20174 votes

But he's meant to build attack speed and always has. I don't see the issue here even if this is true.

From what I heard, new Xin has one of two builds between a caster build and his usual AA focused build. From what I heard, anyway.

iPooUnicornsOct 3, 20171 votes

I was always a sucker for assassin/penetration Xin, it just feels a lot worse with the changes.

Shepherd o SoulsOct 3, 20171 votes

The D- cast is way better suited on Xin than it is on rengar and sejuani, in my opinion. It doesn't feel out of place or lacking/clunky when fighting with it.

Sexy Jack RabbitOct 3, 20172 votes

I think you're right.

It's probably because it scales with his attack speed.

It's not so bad on Seju because she can use it WHILE she is moving. So it flows through her animations a little better.

It's just garbage on Rengar tho.

Shepherd o SoulsOct 6, 20171 votes

For sej, it feels off kit wise. The old flail with a winter storm was more interesting than swinging it twice and having no real appeal. Just looks like it'd be a crit animation or something.

cocacolalipsOct 3, 20171 votes

You aren't looking at the right statistic tho. 1) average win rate is deceptively higher than what it would suggest for champions that are easy to play 2) average win rate in diamond+ essentially stops at diamond 5 due to the overwhelming number of players at that elo compared to every other elo past it.

if you look at easy champions average win rate like shyvana, she also has 51% average win rate in diamond+, but she is still 5-10 worst champions in the game in high mmr because her skill ceiling is so low, good players can't do much more than a player who never really played the champion can do.

Xin Zhao average win rate has always been around 49% in diamond 5 just like garen and co, but simultaneously, the win rate of the best xin zhao players has also been really low in diamond 4+, top 5 bad to be exact. Even tho the average win rate of those champions (garen, amumu, vi, aatrox, shyvana, win zhao etc..) isn't suggesting it, they are actually really really bad in high mmr games when people aren't playing like potatoes.

That would be interesting to know if he is a bit better now in high mmr games past diamond 4+, my guess is not really, he most likely went from garen level of bad aka top 5 bad, to wukong level of bad with a bit more reliable burst, and wukong is still top 15 bad.

tldr: no one will play xin zhao still past diamond 4.

chipndip1Oct 3, 20171 votes

You can't draw these conclusions because there's nothing telling you the stats of champions by divisions to make that conclusion with. You're guesstimating.

cocacolalipsOct 3, 20171 votes

there is actually, you are simply not looking at the right place.

win rate with number of games played is a thing 0-50, 50-100, 100-150, 150-200, 200+ i.e. difference between skill floor and skill ceiling, and how good is a champion when mastered, repeat for each division

you can track the number of players who break master and challenger divisions playing those champions (fun fact, there is no garen player main in master/challenger worldwide, in comparison, there are like 40 janna mains in challenger alone)

you can also track the distribution of those players across all the diamond ranks, i.e. what's the average diamond rank of a garen main (it's diamond 5)

the one I like to check is lolalytics best elo which is number 3, it closely mirrors pro play pretty much, with some exceptions like riven or katarina who are solo Q champions only.

chipndip1Oct 3, 20173 votes

Good point to make, but I'd note that you'd have to give Lolalytics time to make these parameters more "valid", if you get me, since it's still probably pooling data from old Xin in there + there hasn't been much time for Diamond Xin players to strategize and climb. It's still a guesstimate, but it's more like an "educated, thought-through guesstimate", which I can put respect on.

cocacolalipsOct 3, 20171 votes

the data is obviously not for new xin zhao but the old one (needs at least 7 days since this statistic takes into account the past 7 days, prob more cause xin zhao isn't all that popular), that's why I'm curious to know where he is going to land after the changes even tho I suspect it won't be much higher, I'd love to be wrong, he is my 3rd most played champion haha, but I don't really see how unless I really underestimate his R and it has lots of outplay potential and such (seems really mediocre so far, besides cheesy stuff like against miss fortune R and stuff)

CatastropOct 3, 20171 votes

My only gripe is that despite the numbers on his W, it still never feels like it's doing much damage. For the record, I am landing both parts as well.

rtbf225618241Oct 3, 20171 votes

I'm actually really curious as to if it's even worth maxing. (The W i mean) because it's so low dmg and only seems to be useful for the cc. It's slower than just basic attacking at later levels aswell.

PaffWasTakenOct 3, 20171 votes

It's legit the only good "rework" that I've seen for a while (no, Galio wasn't reworked...) but indeed, for a good rework its a very very good one

KaìjuOct 3, 20171 votes

As a marksmen player I just like that Xin isn't such an instant death sentence early game. If he screwes up W he's locked in while I mash him and that feels good, I get rewarded for dodging his attack and he's rewarded for hitting me with it. It feels solid both ways.

MasziiOct 3, 20171 votes

Got smashed by one pretty hard. He nearly one shots adc without the right peel, although he was really fed so was i.

Vyr ThirkuOct 3, 20171 votes

I quite like the way he plays now. You can be an 'in the thick of it' fighter or a very high damage AD assassin who isn't just tied to killing one person, now. His ult feels way more useful being basically a Kayle ult for everyone but the person you're fighting until they get back in the circle which can be very demanding in a teamfight and I've survived a few Zed ults by letting him do his combo-then-shadow-away-thing and then just ulting as I walked away lul. before he felt gimmicky. Build on-hit and then press e on adc. Now you can fight basically anyone without feeling like you're wasting your potential. I just hope that maybe one day riot implements like, an E reset on kill/assist, 'cos after you've used your e you have no real engage. Maybe make the base cooldown on his e a few seconds longer to really hammer in the 'make sure you kill who you jump on' thing'. Just spitballing here. And yeah sure your Q reduces its cd by 3 seconds if you hit them all but most people want to get the f away from a Xin who has just dived onto them lmao.

I even have a full AD assassin-ish Xin shot here of me literally deleting their botlane with one rotation of spells;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvxjctu4SLQ

MangelinaJolieOct 3, 20171 votes

He just seems like old Poppy with a little more available to him and a little more counterplay to his ult.

TeCoolMageOct 4, 20171 votes

Stop it, we can't have a thread like this ruining our front page filled with complaints that riot only cares about skins. How will I grow my wholesome memes in this kind of environment?!