People complain about CertainlyT making champions unfun to play against

KONO RUBICK DA·Apr 14, 2017·50 votes·4,884 views

Can you list me someone who makes fun to play against champions? because i can't

i can't think of a worse release than camille except maybe ekko is a complete brain tumor that steal camps easily while giving them to allies, and doesn't allow you to move what a fun rework, having to accept death if we got hit by a chain no comments no comments

so who? who exactly makes non-cancerous champions? i can't think of anyone except the dude who made

this is just the truth, NO ONE CARES about enemies experience, they just want to release champions that they find "flashy" and shit like that

147 Comments

AmazoXApr 14, 201752 votes

Though CertainlyT certainly did an excellent job with Warwick rework.

WinTheWarOnPantsApr 14, 20174 votes

Even i have to admit that he did a decent job with the WW rework.

ULTRAF0RCEApr 14, 20173 votes

I think part of it is he's generally kind of creative so restrictions can help his champions have more focus even if they aren't always balanced great most of his reworks are much more focused than his original champions and most have been useful at some point in time, Caitlyn and Graves both have much clearer strengths and weaknesses even if both have had OP problems, Darius has really come into his own with the rework, Mordekaiser(it was a mistake to try and rework him with jugernauts) Outside of them and WW I don't know who he has worked on since Kalista.

Cosmic WarperApr 14, 201720 votes

{quoted}

Though CertainlyT certainly did an excellent job with rework.

Agreed. That rework is fair to play as and against. You can dodge his ult, hit him while he's running at you to take away his W's bonus MS, and predict the Q to dash or run towards your team so he is surrounded.

Only Play DariusApr 14, 20173 votes

I feel like his new ult is stacked against him. Yes he can use as an escape now but the hitbox can be janky and if i'm not mistaken it has the same cooldown as it had before.

Ariel the CruelApr 14, 201720 votes

You can dodge his ult

In soviet Russia, you dodge WW ult. Everywhere else, he just misses the 3 pixel hit-box. XD

AzteryzApr 14, 20179 votes

imo i think people are just still traumatized from the mordekaisar rework

but tbh if the rework didnt happened the community wouldnt be so behind morde

which is probably what made morde get pushed even closer in the rework list because of the support because before the rework it was a just a handful of morde mains who couldnt make their voice loud enough as opposed to now which is a good thing

Golden Tager XApr 14, 201724 votes

Can't think of anything worse than release camille, really, you must be hella new here.

MissingKayoApr 14, 201720 votes

Release Xin & 99% banrate Kassadin are the two that come to mind instantly.

LyingOnLineApr 14, 201710 votes

Kalista.

Kalista kalista kalista kalista kalista.

Release Yasuo was also a stinker.

SnowplosionApr 15, 20172 votes

Diana and Rek'sai were also pretty bad.

AMYS GRAVEApr 14, 201715 votes

Unfun to play against is somewhat subjective. It generally means that there is little counterplay to their attack or defense patterns. Why do people hate on lee? Because he has all the agency in every interaction he has. His mobility means he picks when and where to fight, and it is up to him to screw up his combo or not and there is almost nothing you can do about it.

In the end it isn't about being fun to play against, its about not making you hate the game because OMG that champ is in this game why me FML... and there are lots of champions that don't bring out that reaction. When the enemy picks Taric i know that brings a certain amount of power to their team, but i know that there are things i can do about it and i don't hate the game for that champion existing. It creates a fair experience for both sides.

Darius StradaApr 14, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=Negan fanboy124,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vYPohNY8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-14T16:03:23.482+0000)

Can you list me someone who makes fun to play against champions? because i can't

i can't think of a worse release than camille except maybe ekko

So, you didn't play season 1 with release Xin Zhao, did you?

Sraeg2013Apr 14, 20176 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHw1_Csup84

Enjoy all 3 pixels of this video.

LauchmelderApr 14, 201712 votes

Let's word it differently (I'm a huge CertainlyT fan btw).

CertainlyT makes champions that are:

fun to play
overloaded/ loaded as hell
unfun to play against

Just take Kalista for example. She's insanely fun to play thanks to her passive(s), has a built in smite, a mobile ~~annoyance~~ ward and an engage/disengage tool on her ult. On top of that a natural synergy with Hurricane.

He's not the only one that does that, but he's one of the more known ones to do it.

KONO RUBICK DAApr 14, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vYPohNY8,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-04-14T16:32:24.114+0000)

CertainlyT makes champions that are:

fun to play

overloaded/ loaded as hell

unfun to play against

and MY problem, is that everyone at the design team is like him tell me who isn't

SpecterVonBarenApr 15, 20174 votes

Nautilus, Nami, Kog'Maw, Cho'Gath, Karthus, Morgana, Oriana, Vel'Koz, Alistar, Braum, Taric, Wukong.

There are lots of champs that aren't frustrating to deal with. The thing with CertainlyT champs is that they often have everything needed in their kit to overcome any situation or completely screw over certain types of champs (Yasuo against mages, Kalista against melee champs) and as someone else said, usually whether they succeed or fail is dependent on them outplaying themselves, not on you outplaying them.

RISE Shlack123Apr 14, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vYPohNY8,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-04-14T16:32:24.114+0000)

Let's word it differently (I'm a huge CertainlyT fan btw).

CertainlyT makes champions that are:

fun to play

overloaded/ loaded as hell

unfun to play against

Just take Kalista for example. She's insanely fun to play thanks to her passive(s), has a built in smite, a mobile ~~annoyance~~ ward and an engage/disengage tool on her ult. On top of that a natural synergy with Hurricane.

He's not the only one that does that, but he's one of the more known ones to do it.

CT was the most notorious broken-champ designer. It seems like everyone else has been trying to one-up him while CT himself reigned it in with the WW remake - his first really balanced design/rework that I can't even hate him for (and I hate on CT all the time).

Ariel the CruelApr 15, 20178 votes

Just take Kalista for example. ...

And horrible to play with.

Signed, ~ Your support.

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20177 votes

Ivern was pretty balanced as was Bard. The assassin rework wasn't even that bad, like the champions were pretty decent, kinda strong, but not oppressive outside of Leblanc. Rengar maybe after they buffed him a little. The two new champs look pretty balanced.

I agree Riot releases overpowered champions but they wouldn't be able to try new concepts and ideas without that.

KONO RUBICK DAApr 14, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Ivern was pretty balanced as was Bard.

58% win rate, very balanced indeed

{quoted} Rengar maybe after they buffed him a little.

they never buffed him, but infact nerfed him non-stop and they keep nerfed him even if his win rate is under 50%

{quoted}

The two new champs look pretty balanced.

i won't talk about things that aren't in the game yet

{quoted}

I agree Riot releases overpowered champions but they wouldn't be able to try new concepts and ideas without that.

this thread isn't talking about overpowered champions, but the overall frustration that they bring

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20177 votes

Win rate is not a determination of champion strength. If i remember correctly heimerdinger was top 3 win rate of like 2 seasons at a constant 55 percent. Also Plat and above he is at 54 percent.

They did buff him right after release and on the PBE after the rework was initially released.

I will talk about things that havent been released because there is tons of PBE gameplay of them out not to mention ive played with and against them on PBE now about 20 times.

They are frustrating because they have mechanics or abilities you have never seen before and therefore don't know how to play against. Thats the frustrating part, not the champion itself.

I will give you camille though. That champ is retarded

KONO RUBICK DAApr 14, 20175 votes

{quoted}

If i remember correctly heimerdinger was top 3 win rate of like 2 seasons at a constant 55 percent.

and he got nerfed and heimer had 80% of his players being mains, iver is not played mostly by his mains and 55% is not the same than 58%

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20172 votes

I meant Ivern is at 55 percent not 58 percent. Idk where you got that number but champion.gg has him at 55 percent.

Heimer did not get nerfed. He is exactly the same as he was 2 seasons ago. He has a high win rate because he is an exceptional high elo champion. If you look at his win rate by rank it tells a better story.

Bronze- 46 percent Silver - 46 percent Gold - 49 percent Plat - 57 percent Diamond - 55 percent Master- 61 percent Challenger - 54 percent

He's definitely balanced

AMYS GRAVEApr 14, 20178 votes

champion.gg is notoriously bad at this point. After Camille's release something like three days after she was out it had the average number of games played on the champion at 1100 or something stupid like that. It also is only pulling 6600 ivern games total so there is a low sample size.

use lolalytics or leagueofgraphs, they are much better all around.

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20171 votes

No it just only takes game from plat and above because those are the only elo's that matter for balance

AMYS GRAVEApr 14, 20175 votes

it just only takes game from plat and above

lolalytics and league of graphs do too.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ivern/platinum

57% winrate, 6.6% pick rate, 17% ban rate in plat+

champion.gg is just wrong, and has been proven to be for some time.

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20172 votes

6.6 percent pick rate is all? Then I am totally ok with that. This assumes mostly people who main him pick him. It isn't something like Ahri having a 53-55 percent win rate with a 25 percent pick rate

AMYS GRAVEApr 14, 20175 votes

That's actually a pretty average pick rate, (average pick rates are ~7%) so he's probably getting a good spread of mains and non-mains playing him. It isn't ahri levels of stupid but the pick rate isn't actually low to justify the high winrate.

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20171 votes

I never said it was low. It is average. But again, win rate is not a determination of champion strength. Lee sin is always below 50 percent as well as syndra for a while and so was azir when he was insanely good. It means nothing unless it is the case where the pick rate and win rate are insanely high

AMYS GRAVEApr 14, 20176 votes

I never said it was low. It is average.

6.6 percent pick rate is all? Then I am totally ok with that. This assumes mostly people who main him pick him.

It isn't low, but only mains pick him? Make up your mind, I don't even know what you're trying to say now....

o Eon OApr 14, 20173 votes

Ivern wasn't overpowered on release, he had such a bad win rate (around 30 percent) that they hotfixed him. Even after that it took multiple patches of buffs to get him to this point

AMYS GRAVEApr 14, 201722 votes

Ivern has been overpowered (maybe broken) since his first patch buffs ~~release~~, and bard was released comically undertuned with (iirc) a sub 40% winrate.

EDIT: forgot about his first patch buffs.

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20174 votes

Strong in high elo, weak in low elo. I call that balanced

AMYS GRAVEApr 14, 201721 votes

Ivern?

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ivern/all

starts at 54.5% winrate in silver/bronze and goes up from there. Not exactly weak at low elo....

Bard has since been balanced out and has a 50-51% winrate accross all elos though.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/bard/all

o Eon OApr 14, 20174 votes

Since release? He was incredibly underpowered on release. He actually got a hot fix and then multiple buffs through patches because his win rate was around 30ish percent after his release. After the hotfix + the buffs his win rate began rising

Glory ln DeathApr 14, 20176 votes

Ivern's only buffs that he has ever received were 2 seconds off his root cooldown and additional health on Daisy. The hotfix was to straighten out Daisy AI bugs. Literally every other change has been nerfs.

Ivern was overpowered on release. The reason he had such a low winrate for a bit was because Ivern's playstyle is so unique, it took several weeks for people to actually figure out how to make him work.

o Eon OApr 14, 20176 votes

http://blogoflegends.com/2016/10/08/ivern-received-hotfix/

Congrats on being wrong. The hotfix had nothing to do with Daisy's AI whatsoever, they were straight buffs to Iverns stats.

MissingKayoApr 14, 20175 votes

This is why people think you're an idiot on the Boards.

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20174 votes

and by "people" i assume you mean you lol

If i was an idiot or had 0 game knowledge i wouldn't be in Diamond. If i was bronze and saying dumb shit then yeah im an idiot. But i clearly have a large scope of game knowledge and mechanics to hit diamond on a 61 percent w/l.

So chill on the keyboard warrior stuff. It's cringe

MissingKayoApr 14, 20175 votes

You realize mechanical playing ability and knowledge of the game are different things? No, of course you don't, because otherwise you wouldn't have said such stupid shit.

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20174 votes

Bro take your edge down a little bit. It is actually cringey.

They are two different things but you need both of them to be in high elo. If you have a ton of mechanical skill and no game knowledge and vise versa then gold is the highest you will get.

MissingKayoApr 14, 20175 votes

There's a difference in mechanical game knowledge and knowledge of other things too, which you also don't realize.

It doesn't matter if you're intelligent enough or not to realize if Ivern is broken. The kind of knowledge you would need is things like cooldowns, warding, map awareness, macro and micro awareness more specifically, and counterbuild and counterstrategies.

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20174 votes

Dude it is an opinion. I don't think ivern is broken. I think he is annoying. Strong maybe. Definitely not over powered or broken. If we are going to talk about junglers that fall under that category then theres one. Graves. Other then that the jungle is pretty balanced right now and I never feel as if im being oppressed playing against Ivern or that he is literally game breakingly broken to where he seems so much stronger then my jungler.

MissingKayoApr 14, 20174 votes

Okay, you have your opinion. That doesn't match up with fact. No one said you can't have your opinion.

There is a good reason Ivern has been consistently number 1 jungler since release or near it.

TheJakeinatorApr 14, 20173 votes

Graves is the number one jungler firs tof all

Second, being a top tier of something does not equal being over powered or broken. Just means the champion is good/strong. That isn't a bad thing.

MissingKayoApr 14, 20175 votes

Normally, that'd be fine. But 55-58% flat overall average winrate over EVERY SINGLE ELO? Near regardless of experience level on him? Do you really not see any problem?

RequiemsfireApr 14, 20177 votes

I mean before with Leblanc you just accept death if she appears on your screen or she was completely worthless throughout the game.

ZT XperimentorApr 14, 20175 votes

Older unreworked champions are still an interesting challenge in a skill matchup. Anivia Chogath Draven Gragas JarvanIV Nautilus Nocturne Orianna Renekton Rumble Singed Syndra Velkoz Volibear MonkeyKing