Jax lategame ?

TheOvermind·Dec 31, 2015·4 votes·1,790 views

is obtainable by just purchasing guinsoo's rageblade. It's not even funny, Jax has no counters atm, i saw both renekton and Darius go 2/0 in lane vs jax, but the moment he gets rageblade, they suddenly cannot fight him anymore. Darius was designed to shut down hypercarries like Jax in lane , and Reneton is an early game bully as well. Why do they lose lane just because Jax bought an item ? I feel like something needs to be done. How do you guys feel about jax and hsi synergy with this item , or the fact that he is unkillable 1v1 if sated? SHould this much power be given that early to one champion because of how his kit works with some items?

28 Comments

KorilloDec 31, 20151 votes

Most people deal with Jax by banning him atm

OhmhODec 31, 20151 votes

I feel rageblade is like a new champion! That's such a stupid item imo that can make even an ant kill a titan ! [zombie-brand-clap]

awesomeunoDec 31, 20151 votes

take malphite against him. E tends to slow his AS way down, then someone who's not a tank kills him. Jax dies the same as anyone else when focused and CC'd.

MLDzXnRRRDec 31, 20151 votes

Try watching Jax vs someone like Renek in high lvl competetive games - Renek falls off super hard.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20151 votes

if you saw both renekton and darius go 2/0 in lane but still lose to him, they were extremely bad players who didnt know how to handle jax properly. this isnt unexpected regarding your elo, but generally speaking, they do very good against jax. the best champion vs him right now is probably garen tho, as he really just mega destroys jax if played properly.

PS: malphite cannot win against jax in lane, its impossible. but if played properly, he can also not lose, so its an even lane. this is good for malphite right now because games last shorter so malphites earlier powerspikes help him out, but thats just if you are a bad toplaner and dont want to risk too much to let your team carry.

TheOvermindDec 31, 20151 votes

bro seriously how does a renekton or darius play "badly" especially vs jax where the only thing that you can do to outplay him is to dodge his E if you are mobile enough. if you are ahead you should be able to kill the jax 1v1, yet they could'nt , and it wasn't a small difference or anything, jax killed darius and still had half his hp left. he hit way too hard, for being behind. I don't know what are you defending here, it's obvious Jax is broken with guinsoo's, and these 2 games are the evidence.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20151 votes

well ask yourself this:

you are silver 5 and im diamond 2 and we can even take into consideration that you play on the easiest server while i play on the second hardest. maybe thats important to you to estimate the value of our ranks more precisely.

now with this information, do you still think that what i say doesnt have some truth to it? especially since, i know you didnt check, my toplaner mains darius renekton and garen and i know perfectly fine how these matchups look. also, 2 games in silver are no evidence for anything ever, remember that please.

also, not all champions combat pattern is "right click, press QWER and afk" like jax. darius and renekton have different combat patterns and if you just stand and attack, they will lose to many champions that they could easily destroy.

so think again: how high is the chance that a diamond 2 knows better than a silver 5? pretty high i guess. now just IMAGINE I was right, just imagine it. you dont have to accept it yet but just consider the possibility - now in this scenario im right okay? why could i be right? what could be the thing that you missed that i know? there must be something cuz we are imagining that im right so think very hard and you might learn something about the game.

if it doesnt work, you can still ask me nicely and i might tell you.

UtilityPunkDec 31, 20153 votes

Not a big fan of people who pull rank in a condescending manner like this.

All you had to say was, "I play diamond 2, and at my level, knowing how to dodge is vital. Renekton and Darius can counter Jax fairly well, but they can't default into 'chase & kill' mode. They need to actively dodge his skills in order to outplay him." Or anything really along those lines. But then perhaps your name is key.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20151 votes

yeah, i contempt people who cant think for themselves but the rank thing is actually pretty important because it gives you an idea that there are options and things that you dont know about. its not proof for anything but its a reminder for you to think "HES DIAMOND 2, HE MIGHT KNOW THINGS THAT I DONT SO BETTER TRY TO UNDERSTAND HIM"

ofcourse you can fully neglect it and stick to your own truth forever and be depressed because jax is "broken" and rageblade is "broken" and you cant climb out of "elo hell" because "trolls" or you can accept that im better and that skill in league mainly comes with understanding and knowledge and thus you can accept that i know more and learn from it. im giving you an opportunity here.

if you have any questions regarding the game, feel free to ask.

oh and btw, "at my level, knowing how to dodge is vital" is an empty phrase. at every level its vital to know how to play your champion but since the enemies suck aswell you have alot of randomness. like sometimes you win this matchup and sometimes you lose it and you cant really say why but in reality, it should always be the same because there is only one truth. there are some skillmatchups in the game but most things that people call "skill matchups" are just matchups where you need to play properly but WHEN YOU DO, your opponent is fucked because he doesnt have the kit to compete.

SH AzykanDec 31, 20152 votes

so someone who spams support morgana/thresh their entire way climbing into diamond without playing a single game in top should know more about top lane, than a guy who maybe isnt able to climb but has 1k top lane games under their belt in gold? Not saying that applies here but using rank 100% as the defining "I'm clearly right" just doesn't work.

Granted I agree with some of your points you are making about the matchup...but rank is not what you should pull in this circumstance.

Onto the Jax with rageblade issue though...stop trying to fight him when he stacked up to max on minions...seriously. If you go on him when it starts at 0 stacks as renekton or darius the trade is so easy. But an 8 stack Rageblade gives so many extra stats that there is legit no way they win that fight unless they have a HUGE gold advantage.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20151 votes

i never said rank 100% defines who is right. now i have the choice to either ask you why you wrote that or to consider you are not intelligent enough to read and understand text. ill choose the first option: what do you want to say with your first paragraph?
what does he need to do to stack rageblade? he has to auto attack minions. why does he auto attack minions for free? because the darius/renekton player missplays their lane. why do i know that despite not even maining any of said champs nor toplane? because i use my brain to think about the game while most people are like "omg mobafire said its a counter so stfu im right". also, having a toplaner who plays all of these champions really well helps alot too.
to get back to your first paragraph: i would say that 99% of diamond players can teach lower elo players something about a champion, even if the diamondplayer doesnt main it and the lower elo player does. its not a given that the diamond player does EVERYTHING better than the lower elo player but he CERTAINLY does some things better, hence his rank.

TheOvermindDec 31, 20151 votes

what are you trying to say ? that my opinion is invalid because you have a better rank than me ? Also to clear that up , the games were not in silver, they were in platinum i was specating a game , so maybe that will shake up your opinion on how strong Jax gets with that item . ALso i really don't like youor attitude of " im better than you , please learn from me , you know nothing " I have a friend that is like that and is stuck in gold now (former diamond) because of his attitude to his now gold teamates. Furthermore you seem to say nothing about Jax's power and his item synergies, just keep repeating that in that low elo darius and renekton played it badly .

plantersDec 31, 20153 votes

so im gonna do my best to explain why even though this guy is an ass he is right. Jax is a late-game champion and darius is an early game champion. It can then be assumed that two things are true. Assuming both players play right, at 6 items jax will always win while at 0 items darius will always win. assuming we do not count boots as an item, that means we realistically have only 5 item slots. This means that at 3 items we start to hit a point of contention where jax will always win. Now we ask the question, then how does jax win at only 1 item? realistically jax has a great chance of winning assuming one thing. that the fight becomes an extended trade. Once jax gets a fully stacked guinsoo's he gets substantially more damage than normal.

Upon reaching 8 stacks, you gain Guinsoo's Rage, and a total of +64% attack speed, +54 attack damage, and +72 ability power, granting 33.5 bonus on-hit magic damage on an 350 range area of effect by itself.

this is a quote from the wiki itself on guinsoo's rageblade. What this means is that guinsoo's is basically in itself the stat equivalent of two items. That means that if allowed to fight, assuming equal skill on both players parts, jax is now a full item up on his opponent when using a fully stacked guinsoos. now what does this have to do with the scaling, late vs early game, i mentioned? well, the basic theory around late vs early game champions is simple. it assumes you both have equal gold. If one gets more gold than the other, then these rules start going out the window because of how far ahead they get. This gets into the problem with guinsoo's. the item scales exceptionally well with champions that want more stats.

so the answer to your questions are:

in the case of quinsoo's being OP? Yes, but your teammates had to play poorly and not let guinsoo's fall off in the first place for them to lose. so in the case of your specific situation
no, it was somewhat fair that they happened to lose because they probably didnt play out the situation properly.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20151 votes

im not saying your opinion is invalid, im just saying that there is a high chance i could possibly know better than you and you should consider this. its up to you if you have respect for ranks or not. i certainly do.
platinum, silver, its all the same as long as he lost that fight. if he loses it, it shows that he doesnt know the champion and the matchup, thats all. it doesnt show anything about the champions strength because the strength was not used by the players.
its possible (and very likely) that your friend got into diamond by some very rare scenario. for example, he was probably good with a specific cheese-strategy that doesnt work anymore or he had really lucky winstreaks and his losses were distributed very well so he didnt drop from them. its also possible that he got boosted or similar stuff. the skill variance in all elos is extremely huge thats why people think they are playing with trolls and stuff. not every diamond is "diamond level". there are really fucking good diamonds, i played with one of them today. he played janna and he had a really impressive game from which i could tell that he knows how to play. this wasnt a "one timer", he just plays really fucking smart and solid. at the same time in the same game i had 3 other teammates who were much worse and had no idea about what they were doing or supposed to do. if he is stuck in gold now, he isnt diamond skill. heck he isnt even plat skill. it has nothing (or little) to do with his attitude but he is just not skilled enough. also there is the very slim possibility that his playstyle is very inefficient at carrying gold elo games.

for example, if i rank up a new account from placements to diamond i have roughly an 80-90% winrate while my toplaner has over 95% winrate because his style and champpool is much stronger for carrying noobgames. he just fucking destroys and carries and he does the same thing in diamond while my style is a bit more delicate. just like that there are players who have a style that is absolutely useless for carrying games but they can still go even in mid diamond and hold themselves there. tho i have to say i doubt your friend is one of them, i'd rather guess hes some kind of fraud who doesnt deserve to be higher than gold.

jax has great power and great synergy with items and hes extremely easy to play as of how little brain his kit requires. he literally pushes the lane and if someone misssteps he instantly trades with him and keeps pushing. this is all he can do and there is no other play pattern that he can adopt, thats why there are matchups for him that he cannot win because gamedesign doesnt allow it and there are matchups that he basically cannot lose because of how strong his one play pattern is. this is why hes an extremely good noob champ. you only have to learn his one play pattern and learn his power and you will destroy everyone who doesnt super-main his champion.

tho again all i can do is to repeat it again: if darius plays it properly, he will win 100% of the time because of his kit. this means if jax wins, it has NOTHING to do with his synergy or power or how long his genital is but it is to be blamed COMPLETELY on the opposing player, no matter if he is platinum or LCS.

oh and 5. im not asking you to "please learn from me", im just a user posting his opinion and the only thing i did is remind you that, as of my rank, there is a chance i might know stuff that you dont and im giving you the freedom to learn from it or not. even if you dont like the way it reads (which is intended) you can still grasp the essence if you care.

UtilityPunkDec 31, 20152 votes

People have already come to the same conclusion you did in point #3; skill varies so much that rank doesn't matter. Had you dropped the rank argument and focused on showing the things you know, this is your response:

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vPPqirXh,comment-id=00040000000000010001,timestamp=2015-12-31T18:10:07.880+0000) jax has great power and great synergy with items and hes extremely easy to play as of how little brain his kit requires. he literally pushes the lane and if someone misssteps he instantly trades with him and keeps pushing. this is all he can do and there is no other play pattern that he can adopt, thats why there are matchups for him that he cannot win because gamedesign doesnt allow it and there are matchups that he basically cannot lose because of how strong his one play pattern is. this is why hes an extremely good noob champ. you only have to learn his one play pattern and learn his power and you will destroy everyone who doesnt super-main his champion.

It's maybe 20% of the substance you type. The remaining 80% is you saying 'I'm diamond 2 so I might know better, but rank means nothing because skill varies a lot in ranks.' Nonetheless, I do appreciate your perspective on Jax, if not the way you discuss it.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20151 votes

its funny that you still dont get it. really, not everyone is blessed with text comprehension it seems xD

rank is somewhat, SOMEWHAT, an indicator for skill and "skill varies too much" is nothing i ever said. i said if someone plays darius properly, he will crush jax, even if the jax plays properly aswell. its just that i know that because i play with people who can handle their champs properly and you dont, which makes it seem that jax is op or something or whatever.

truth is, even tho you are low elo noskiller you could still learn to play properly and grow into a higher elo player with higher skill and more understanding of the game. yet you choose to bitch around and argue about nothing. really, its your choice, why dont you make one that benefits you?

Mecha MaIphiteDec 31, 20151 votes

malphite is also much more useful in teamfights whereas jax is kinda meh

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20152 votes

the point is that if malphite makes a mistake, he cant control jax anymore since he doesnt outscale him. on the other hand, darius and garen do outscale jax and thus they can go even just as easy or even easier than malphite while THEY actually have the potential to WIN the lane, which malphite doesnt have.

i would say, malphite is the champion you pick if you dont toplane or you are in your last promo game and suck vs jax with your main champs (lol). but generally, i wouldnt pick matchups that cant win.

Mecha MaIphiteDec 31, 20151 votes

jax's winrate v malph is around 41%, whereas vs garen is around 45%

if we go by statistics, wukong is an even harder counter, with jax sitting at 38% winrate (which does make sense if u look at his kit)

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20151 votes

is that only diamond+ winrates? and even then its biased by people playing wrong (like OP said fed darius lost 1on1 to jax which is impossible if played properly and he only lost because he played it horribly wrong) and ofcourse junglers and since malphite is better at setting up ganks vs a desperately pushing jax, this also shifts winrates.

when i talk about the game, i like to imagine both players use the maximum efficiency of their champions because otherwise its kinda like "the better player wins" right?

Mecha MaIphiteDec 31, 20151 votes

it's only plat+

and yeah, darius and renek would be much better for dueling a jax to keep him down, but malph is just more reliable because you don't have to beat him down to be more useful than him

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20151 votes

the others dont have to beat him aswell. all three of them can go even and be more usefull but garen and darius outscale him so if they go even ,they can still beat him after 2 items while malphite cant really. he can just hold, but he cant beat him. and malph isnt THAT MUCH more useful than the other two, hes just easier to use.

UtilityPunkDec 31, 20151 votes

I can see why he performs so scarily well with Guinsoo's. His kit isn't remarkable, but the buffs his basics get, and the fact that the basics increase in speed make him a really tricky champion to keep in check. So much bonus damage and attack speed >.<

About the only solid counter are attacks from range, looking at the way his kit is. Other than that, if a tanky melee character outdoes his dps and survives a CC or two. Or a champion that can do ~2000hp damage in the span of a second or two.

Seriously, the losing move against Jax is staying in his range for more than a couple seconds without crazy good sustain.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20151 votes

its very simple really: jax only strength is in his counterstrike because that enables him to continuously auto attack and staying out of range is very very hard because of his jump and also flash and if you have enough damage to kill him from range, you will die from one counterstrike easily which means he can always flash kill you.

champions who do best against jax are fighters who can take his counterstrike and then out-dps and/or burst him like darius, garen etc.

its especially easy if jax jumps on them because then not only did he waste his jump so he cant kite them anymore but he also wasted his counterstrike for engaging instead of dodging their attacks at a vital phase of the fight.

for example: jax jumps on garen and he starts uses W E. he will outtrade jax even during the stun and he will then be able to auto Q R freely and most likely instagib jax and still have 40-60% hp depending on the stage of the game (this is at 1 item point).

or jax jumps on darius (1 item point again. jax has rageblade, darius has phage, giants belt and chainvest). darius tries to walk away and gets stunned while jax pummels him and deals some damage. then darius uses auto W and walks away a few steps to Q with blade. he then stays at the same distance because both have similar movementspeed so neither can hit the other but darius cooldowns are very short while jax counterstrike is very long so during this fight, no matter what happens, he will not have a second counterstrike. so jax can either Q again to eat another W Q or he can walk away in which case he gets hooked back, auto attacked and Qed again into R for the kill. darius will probably not go below 50% health from this.

now the real problem for jax in this matchup: if jax wants to kill minions, he has to auto attack them in which case he will eat a free Q from darius. this is inevitable, therefore jax HAS to trade with darius to be able to CS or he will get harrassed down for free which, ofcourse, loses the game instantly. so if he HAS to trade you have to ask: CAN he trade? no, he cant. darius is stronger and he can kite jax and he can heal and he can choose when to re-engage with his hook and he has a mega strong passive for extended trades and an execute. jax has no fucking chance to trade with darius so he has to all-in him but then again, can he win an all-in? if darius wastes cooldowns or misspositions, jax can then all-in him and kill him and snowball because once he is ahead, he CAN outtrade darius but he can ONLY get ahead if darius makes a severe mistake. he cant get ahead from "skill". their kits dont allow it.

this means if you lose a fight with darius against jax you horribly missplayed and you should go to the forums and open a thread about how broken everything is.

Pasta Help DeskDec 31, 20151 votes

Not really. Jax with only a rageblade or only a rageblade and devourer is still super squishy until he gets his tanky items. Just try to blow him up and don't pick AA reliant champs into him.