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You know, for all the "suggesting" and complaining we do, Meddler is a good sport about it.

Melledoneus··147 votes·7,152 views

"Wtf Riot you failed again" "Wow, this game is gonna die soon, f*ck this" "Get your shit together, Riot" "Pls delete Yasuo"

I understand that the game has glaring issues and there are many problems, but nothing excuses this behavior. For the times I have displayed that attitude, I regret it because people (myself included) often forget that there are good people hard at work to make this game enjoyable for us in a time span far longer than one in which a normal game would sputter and die out.

I want to dedicate this post to Meddler, the Gameplay Designer. He has the hardest job of having to deal with the grittiest aspect of the game that changes the most, and getting feedback from occasional jerkwads and looking at stats every so often to determine what the players are doing. Not to mention those darn Koreans for finding the most broken shit and warping the game as a result.

I have placed this in Gameplay, my good moderators, because I want this in the most likely spot where Meddler will see it. Please don't remove it.

I certainly do not detract from the good work of the other Rioters when I say this, but thank you for your hard work, Meddler. You play support to your team, and you support us all as well.

131 Comments

RiotMeddler56 votes

Thank you for the kind words, they're appreciated. Dealing with some negativity, often very understandable, is definitely part of the job. It's good to also hear when our communication's working for you folks too though.

One thing you touched on I'd really like to emphasis is how much all the work we do's also a team effort. While there are some people such as myself who talk more online getting the actual game balance, champ design, item overhauls etc done has a lot of people involved. Those people aren't necessarily as visible, they're certainly putting in hard work though.

Melledoneus19 votes

DELETE YASUO PLS

Just kidding, I really do appreciate your work here and envy your patience with people sometimes. And I really like how you're so damn modest about it, too! People say that you guys have ruined the game almost every day, but if that were true this wouldn't still be the most popular MOBA in our day and age after nearly 8 years of the game's life.

Despite the balance issues that rise from time to time, Riot has created something truly magical that always draws us back to it, and the work of you and all the other unsung heroes of Riot makes League of Legends truly a special thing.

DonnieDarkin2 votes

I would just like to know what Riot considers as success in terms of balance. Can you guys verbally express your goals in terms of what kind of play rates, win rates etc you want to see overall?

I have never heard anything like this every expressed. And without it I think you guys are just in a cycle of fixing problems caused by fixing problems that were caused by fixing problems. And half of those problems stem from Riot having favorite champions that they refuse to nerf despite how oppressive they are.

Can you step back and see from players perspectives how this all looks to us?

ItsOrval1 votes

Isnt it weird how a plat 5, not only plat 5, but a support main plat 5, is the leader of the gameplay design? No wonder this game is never balanced.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Your ranked experience becomes less relevant if the game changes enough. :^)

Ahristocats19 votes

Meddler does a godlike work

whoever said the opposite should get mental help

however there is no doubt that the design team are horrible and should stop designing, and i'm not scared of pointing out repertoir (thanks for your work again friend, tanks needed nerfs) xypherous and of course the design leader Ghostcrawler

Slythion7 votes

where's the certainlyT shoutout, or is that just a given at this point

:^)

Ahristocats29 votes

last time i checked certainlyt didn't massively changed the game, he designed champions that the majority of board hates but balance wise they're almost all balanced with nearly 50% win rate except thresh and yasuo who rose in this patch due to the abomination that was 7.9

he didn't create items, he didn't shift power of an entire class

xypherous on the other hand, created item 3153 and since season 3 this item was either garbage tier or imbalanced, he gave CDR to everyone, buffed ADCS in season 3 for no reasons making toplaners starting to run TP and going full tank and being meatshield for them (alistar toplane hello). he designed fizz orianna nautilus lulu renekton WHO ARE ALL GENERALIST, but when i say generalist it's for real means generalist, they're all destroying most of their lane match up with no real point in the game where they're weak, when they're viable.

Repertoir, not only he didn't fixe a single champion (skarner is getting a vgu, quinn is still cancer with poor counterplay, rengar is a failure, malz was destroyed, garen is still stat checking, kog rework was reverted) but also fucked up the game in 7.9 with the tank rework

let's not even talk about fearless who had the idea of changing the jungle in season 7 for no reasons

the design team should just stop designing meddler is always here to fixe their shit

Penns6 votes

Ure gonna have to give me your definition of "generalist champ" if youre gonna call Fizz one oO lol

Ahristocats6 votes

basically their mechanics make them when viable strong against any laners

darius for instance is weak against mobile melees because of his Q karthus is going to get destroyed by assassins same for Sol

but fizz orianna renekton lulu nautilus do not have any mechanics that make them weak against a kind of champ, they're just going to lose if the enemy champion is "better" because of numbers

orianna as an immobile mage won't be destroyed by assassins, because she has bonus armor/mr, a shield, movement speed steroid+slow+ tons of ranged damage

Penns2 votes

Well Ori and Lulu kind of but Fizz will get destroyed by just about any ranged mid laner that doesnt get countered hard like Aurelion tho and even he can push mid game and build defensive items against a Fizz.

He is melee without any sustain or defense other than a spell thats not worth using to dodge poke, how does that not lose to anything?

ChaddyFantome4 votes

that isn't what a generalist is. a generalist is a champion that just can do and fill every niche/role within their class, and thus innately crowd out other picks regardless of other champions being theoretically better or more suited for the task based on their niche. They have no glaring weaknesses and are too well rounded in terms of what they can do and what they offer from the role.

Lucian is a perfect example of this, as all he does is damage, but he pretty much out DPS and out Spell slings every adc in the game. The only time to not pick Lucian is when he as a champion is in a weak state.

Ahristocats8 votes

{quoted}

They have no glaring weaknesses and are too well rounded in terms of what they can do and what they offer from the role.

THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID FFS they do not have any mechanic that makes them weak against some champions, and thus they're generalist because they can go against anyone hello renekton and orianna

Jamenawerl1 votes

Renekton is weak against mages with hard cc tho.

KitSun92 votes

Mages with Hard CC... hmmm.... I wonder who else hard CC dicks over..... All of Kled's Rivals go check on the wiki you'll see who they are....

Jamenawerl2 votes

Sure, thats why picks like Ryze, Lulu, Kennen, Swain, Karma and Lissandra are dominating the toplane right now.

Oh wait, they arent.

Trundle and Olaf also shit on Renekton btw.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

How are Fizz, Renekton, Lulu and Orianna generalists?

Slythion3 votes

Just curious here and I'm gonna point out the glaringly obvious one:

how is Lulu not a generalist? 0_0

Ahristocats2 votes

how are orianna and renekton not generalist too

i agree that fizz is debateable

AirKingNeo5 votes

Fizz is no generalist. He doesn't any generalist traits.

Puttyblo9 votes

{quoted}

How are Fizz, Renekton, Lulu and Orianna generalists?

They actually balance + design all top lane champions around the strength + kit of Renekton because if they don't he'll win every match up.

Lulu had to be nerfed 80 times because she had no bad match up, and 90% of them were favorable for her in every lane. She can still be played in other lanes as well anyways.

Fizz doesn't have to always go AP, he can go jungle + top and build tanky, or ad, or hybrid or whatever he feels like allowing him to create favorable situations against particular champions when the other champions simply cannot do the same. IF say Jayce builds solely to counter Fizz, not only is he going to suffer a massive DPS loss, but Fizz can just switch his build on the fly and give him a very bad time.

Orianna also doesn't really have a bad match up and she can be either extreme utility based, or hard burst which makes her so good in competitive on top of her ulti.

Slythion8 votes

Ah, I guess I missed that we were only talking about large-scale decision-makers. Although it should be noted that the game doesn't just revolve around power balance, it has to balance (hue) that with fairness as well. Just because a kit is balanced off of win-ratio doesn't mean there isn't anything wrong with the champion itself (referring to certainlyT's champions and why the boards hate a lot of them). The thing to remember is that boards confuse the meanings of "bullshit" and "op" and usually just default to "op".

As for the season 7 changes...fuck that guy, I still dislike the new jungle to this day (yes, even the plants). It dumbed it down so much :/

Eternal7913 votes

The thing to remember is that boards confuse the meanings of "bullshit" and "op" and usually just default to "op".

Not that bullshit is good or fun to have in the game. In fact I'd argue that its worse than being OP. Yasuo's both though, so there's that.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

I wanna add to this: There were interesting rumors I remember hearing years ago (Like 2012) that Naut was supposed to be even more different. He was going to have like 300 MS (the lowest of any champion in the entire game) but literally be a walking platform of pain. This makes me think that there are some stories behind the scenes about things as they should/things as they end up.

Like Ekko's old ult that he rewound the game 4 seconds. Or Lucian's old passive where he could target two different people to auto rather than getting a double tap.

How much is left on the cutting room floor and cannot make it to league because of code, design or otherwise?

Ahristocats2 votes

good thing about certainlyt (and that's only my opinion because people hate him) is that he never goes down he had an idea about lucian passive and then fullfied it with graves he had an idea about darius Q destroying projectiles but it was clunky and kept the idea for an other champion

he brings new funny shit that aren't recycled unlike how xypherous did with lulu orianna renekton

RiotMeddler19 votes

There's a lot of stuff we try and Naut being slow but having a guaranteed minimum movement speed, Ekko rewinding everyone's positions/health/mana/CDs and Lucian having two separate auto attack timers (one per gun) are things that got tested. In all three cases though we moved onto other things because we didn't find them fun overall for the game. The Ekko ult for example was really cool the first few times and then made every fight frustrating and samey (dictated how the game went too much for one ability, came with a heavy clarity cost and heavily favored some types of champs over others).

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Huh, that's really interesting.

You know, I'd really like to have you on my show sometime to talk about these cutting room floor abilities if you're ever free.

Raxistaicho3 votes

{quoted}

There's a lot of stuff we try and Naut being slow but having a guaranteed minimum movement speed, Ekko rewinding everyone's positions/health/mana/CDs and Lucian having two separate auto attack timers (one per gun) are things that got tested. In all three cases though we moved onto other things because we didn't find them fun overall for the game. The Ekko ult for example was really cool the first few times and then made every fight frustrating and samey (dictated how the game went too much for one ability, came with a heavy clarity cost and heavily favored some types of champs over others).

Admit it, Ekko's ult also turned the same into Maximum Overspaghetti :)

SociopathFriend3 votes

{quoted}

There's a lot of stuff we try and Naut being slow but having a guaranteed minimum movement speed In all three cases though we moved onto other things because we didn't find them fun overall for the game.

That sounds really cool and, at the same time, horrible for the game haha.

The Whamboozler2 votes

A 50% Winrate doesn't mean balanced... nor does it mean that champ is a good idea for the game.

A champ who's passive blew up one of the two nexus' depending on a coin flip the moment a game with him started would have a nearly perfect 50% winrate... but he wouldn't be balanced or add any fun to the game.

Winrate does NOT mean things are in a good state. It CAN mean that, but if you're only looking at winrates and saying "so and so is at 50% winrate, they're in a perfect place" you are doing the game a massive disservice.

Ralanr10 votes

The plus side of the Internet is that you have to actively try to show your real thoughts.

I'm sure Meddler (hell all of Riot) looks at our posts and laughs at the salt.

Blade of Justic7 votes

I remember when Morello was around.

Boy, he was a character worth a read or two.

Melledoneus4 votes

I kinda miss him.

Elikain3 votes

You can real all about Morello in his own biography - item 3165. BTW, what happened to him?

RiotMeddler13 votes

He's working on a research and development project (potential new game that might or might not ever become a real game we release).

LongHair Fox3 votes

Feels like it has been forever since you started the R&D group... I guess mechs and minions came from it but it feels like you guys are developing a AAA title. Looking forward to it though.

Melledoneus10 votes

If it never gets released, or gets canceled, could you let the fans see what his plans were?

So that we can all enjoy it even if we don't get it?

Electro5223 votes

Why do I feel that this is a jab at Ao Shin?

Unvictus7 votes

They've gotten so much better about being transparent with the community. I swear Meddler does a "Gameplay Thoughts" post at least a couple times a week, sharing info with the community concerning what the team is thinking and what stuff is coming up for game balance. I have so much respect for them for being so active with the community.

Melledoneus7 votes

The gameplay thoughts are an enjoyable read for me.

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

His initial goal was tri-weekly, but he explained that at times it falls back to bi-weekly.

It's pretty impressive, I agree.

Lord Desert6 votes

If he would be affected by a bunch of crybabys, complaining about absolutly everything, he wouldnt be fit to be the Lead Gameplay Designer.... But he and everybody else, especially the player support rioters, do get far to less gratitude, if any at all, for their work!

I certainly dont always agree with decisions made and I would love to have activ discussions about ideas and how/if they might work out. They dont even need to be implemented, talking about them is already enough! Or at least hearing out fleshed out ideas! Heck, I did an 11part series with ideas how to improve League... all wall of texts with analitcs sometimes even featuring multiple ideas/concepts! I dont need attention or praise, all I would like to have is a discussion. They are not obligate to do anything with those ideas afterwards, even if they might be flawless!

We are not there yet in terms of communication, but things like meddlers "gameplay thoughts" or the chat with playtesters is a big step in the right direction! For that and the work put into them they have my gratitude.

SwiftKitten885 votes

actaully.. this i DO have to give him credit for... he IS a good sport about it...

still i would like my champion to be viable in at least ONE elo... even if it isn't my elo...

Spice POWAH5 votes

Don't know what elo you're in, but in bronze anything goes.

hotarse2 votes

Here's my problem with Meddler atm. He rarely, if ever, assuages the concerns of players' legitimate complaints. When is the last time you saw him, or any Rioter, post in a thread with complaints for certain imbalances players perceive of the game? Certainly I know it's not possible to respond to every post, and posting in such a thread without being dragged into an all out war with a poster is difficult, but even if indirectly, it would be nice to hear someone from Riot acknowledging our concerns from time to time. But not only does it seem like Meddler and most of Riot are oblivious to this, this "good sport" often translates as uncaring or at worst, trolling.

Downvote this all you want. You know I'm good, baby.

Automated Riven9 votes

Often times people complain something is unbalanced when it's objectively false tho.

hotarse1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vOEF1jty,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-05-15T07:54:21.532+0000)

Often times people complain something is unbalanced when it's objectively false tho.

There are a LOT of complaints. Some less thought out than others. However false a perception may be, it doesn't change the fact that for them it's reality. I may be wrong in thinking that the amount of mobility high damage characters have is unfair, but if enough of us feel this way and say it, then it behooves RIOT to at least address this perception, correct or not.

Ralanr3 votes

As you said there are a LOT of complaints. It isn't Meddler's job to actually address our complaints, hell most Rioters don't need to interact with the forums (they do this on their free time when they decide to).

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