Practice tool proving ADCs are the new assassins

Risen29·Apr 27, 2018·41 votes·11,127 views

Full build Caitlyn (I specifically picked her because she has no special attack speed scaling which would bump the numbers up even more. She's your basic vanilla adc). 1200 DPS to practice dummy. 1450 DPS with rageblade instead of another zeal item. That's 2400-2900 damage in two seconds.

in contrast, Jinx obliterates targets with 1850 DPS with rageblade and her passive stacked up. 3700 damage in two seconds.

Talon: 2200 damage with W/Q/AA combo. But it takes at least 2 seconds, maybe a bit more, to execute as you have to wait for the W return before you jump in. 2700 if electrocute is up. You can bump that up maybe around 3500-3700 if you get both hits of your W and R in, but this also still takes over 2 seconds. If you use both your W and R followed up by your Q and auto attack, you might have 3000 damage and only have to wait one second.

EDIT: I forgot that the bleed effect takes 2 seconds after the combo is executed to even fully apply the damage. That significantly lowers Talon's 1 and 2 seconds burst damage potential, spreading it out over 3-4 seconds.

So the ADC outputs equivalent burst damage most of the time, but also does it as sustained damage. And the ADC does that with only one lethality item, whereas Talon had the full lethality build plus black cleaver.

Keep in mind during all this that the ADC is likely lifestealing the entire time. Your initial hits in the first second will be wiped out by their lifestealing in their first second of attacks, which can make it impossible to execute a full burst combo against them unless they are slow in responding.

If they have even a minor amount of peel from their team then it's all over.

125 Comments

k wìxApr 27, 201821 votes

This is how it's always been for most MOBA style games. The whole reason they are called 'carries' is that if you can get them to late game, they will carry you to victory.

The problem League has right now is more about pacing. ADCs are dealing too much damage too early in the game. An assassin or jungler should have a window of time to delay or straight up gut an ADC from reaching full potential.

The followup problem is recent changes to supports have made ADCs straight up unkillable. A well played Duo has become very, very hard to deal with. Shields need to be looked at, and EARLY game ADC damage needs to be looked at.

You also need to consider if you want to change the role of marksman in general - but based on recent patches and intended changes (mana? ectect.. ) I'd wager Riot plans on keeping marksman in that 'late game carry' style role.

Risen29Apr 28, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIvEW1LK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-27T23:26:03.452+0000)

This is how it's always been for most MOBA style games. The whole reason they are called 'carries' is that if you can get them to late game, they will carry you to victory.

The problem League has right now is more about pacing. ADCs are dealing too much damage too early in the game. An assassin or jungler should have a window of time to delay or straight up gut an ADC from reaching full potential.

The followup problem is recent changes to supports have made ADCs straight up unkillable. A well played Duo has become very, very hard to deal with. Shields need to be looked at, and EARLY game ADC damage needs to be looked at.

You also need to consider if you want to change the role of marksman in general - but based on recent patches and intended changes (mana? ectect.. ) I'd wager Riot plans on keeping marksman in that 'late game carry' style role.

I agree entirely.

The laning phase seems to be about 10 minutes shorter than it use to be. This is absolutely killing the game for a lot of people. Especially those who relied on influencing the game before everything came down to teamfights. There's no longer much of a game worth influencing before teamfights start. Even if you have some success in the early game it won't mean anything unless that success was directed at getting bot lane fed. Everything else is irrelevant. All the gains you made mid and top can be wiped out in the mid game transition if the enemy bot lane comes out stronger.

Talon, and other roaming mids in general, use to be the carry for the team until the ADC came online. That's where we got the term AP Carry from. But you'll never hear that term used anymore. It's irrelevant. Assassins use to be great 1vs1 and at ganks, but bad teamfighters. They are still bad teamfighters, but they no longer have much else to do besides try to influence teamfights.

AjXtarApr 28, 20186 votes

" The whole reason they are called 'carries'"

They are called marksman, not ADC. ADC is a role, marskman is the class and the ADC role has more than 1 class. Bruisers, mages(APC), assassins are also carries. The fact that marskman are played in the bot lane in the role "ADC" that is not even the right term for that role, doesn't make and shouldn't make them the true "carries" in this game. There are more then 1 carries in this game and maybe bronzies like you and riot should realize that by now.

Risen29Apr 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

" The whole reason they are called 'carries'"

They are called marksman, not ADC. ADC is a role, marskman is the class and the ADC role has more than 1 class. Bruisers, mages(APC), assassins are also carries. The fact that marskman are played in the bot lane in the role "ADC" that is not even the right term for that role, doesn't make and shouldn't make them the true "carries" in this game. There are more then 1 carries in this game and maybe bronzies like you and riot should realize that by now.

You don't know what you're talking about. The fact that riot labels them a marksman proves nothing. They've always been called ADCs by the players, and before that they were just called carries in Dota. Because that's what they do: They carry your team once they get enough gold. But you only have one of them on the team, ideally, because they are suppose to take a long time to get good.

Assassins and mages are no longer carries for the reasons already outlined. Their window of carrying the game has shrunk down so small that they are pointless.

AjXtarApr 28, 20184 votes

That's because of poor balance and not because they should be like that and marksman should definitely not be the carries in this game while supports are shutting down every other carry.

Stop defending Riot decisions with stupid arguments.

Risen29Apr 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That's because of poor balance and not because they should be like that and marksman should definitely not be the carries in this game while supports are shutting down every other carry.

Stop defending Riot decisions with stupid arguments.

You define what a stupid argument is by coming in here and saying marksmen should not be the carries of the game.

I suppose you are entitled to your opinion about what marksmen should be, but your opinion has absolutely no relevance to discussing the real state of the game. Marksmen have always been the carries of this game, and always will be. There's no point in discussing your fairytale world where marksmen get completely redefined into a different job than what they have always had. It has absolutely no relevance to discussing the state of balance between marksmen and AP carries or assassins.

AjXtarApr 29, 20181 votes

"Marksmen have always been the carries of this game"

Hahaha. How long have you been playing this game? 5-6 months? The game was split between mages, fighters, assassins and marksman and they were all the carries of this game, not just marksman like they are now. You have no idea what you are talking about and you are defending Riot balance decisions with stupid arguments that doesn't even make sense.

Risen29Apr 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

"Marksmen have always been the carries of this game"

Hahaha. How long have you been playing this game? 5-6 months? The game was split between mages, fighters, assassins and marksman and they were all the carries of this game, not just marksman like they are now.

You don't seem to understand what a carry is. They have been called ADCs (attack-damage-carries) from the beginning, and there's a reason for it. A carry is the person who is designated to scale into late game and be the strongest person on the team. There's a reason only marksman are slotted into that role on a team. You need to be AD based to benefit from AS and crit scaling. And you need to be ranged so you can actually function in a teamfight.

That's not the same as saying only a ADC can result in his team having victory. Even in dota, a good midlaner can "carry" a game to victory if they play right (if you use the word carry as a verb), but that doesn't make them "the carry". They may not have the capacity, due to the kind of hero they are, to actually carry the game as a 1vs5 team destroying scaling hero in the late game.

AjXtarApr 30, 20181 votes

They are called marksman. ADC is a designation for AD champions that is AD and can carry. There are also AP carry. Bruisers, assassins and mages are all carries.

And if you think that there is only one type of carry in dota then you have no idea what you are talking about. In dota everyone has the ability to carry equally. There is no ranged that can carry better than a melee or vice versa.

Stop using that game as an example and as I told you earlier, league was the same before Riot buffed supports and marksman like crazy without a single good reason/ They just answered to the bitching of the marksman class year after year.

Fyi, I am playing since season 3. So stop contradicting with me what is a carry or not when I have played this game where everyone was a carry. not your precious marksman.

Risen29Apr 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They are called marksman. ADC is a designation for AD champions that is AD and can carry. There are also AP carry. Bruisers, assassins and mages are all carries.

No, ADC is a term that has historically only ever been applied to bottom lane carries who are ranged and scale with AD/crit/AS http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ADC

The only reason they invented the marksman vs fighter label is to distinguish from fighters who do scale with AD/Crit/AS, and might even build that way (like Yi), but can't actually fulfill the team function of an bot lane carry.

Just as in Dota, "The Carry" is a specific team role that you only apply to the person who is designated to be protected by supports and given most of the team's gold because they scale the best with items.

I'm also not even sure why you want to try to argue about that - even if you were right it's logically irrelevent because it neither proves nor disproves anything in this entire thread. It's pointless to argue over.

AjXtarApr 30, 20181 votes

Even wiki is contradicting you. lmao.

You try to argue that adc are the true carries in this game for no reason when historically we had more than 1 carry in the game and that was not over the others, but for some reason you are unable to understand this thing. This game can have more carries and it should have more carries. Not just your precious press right click carries.

Risen29Apr 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Even wiki is contradicting you. lmao.

No, it doesnt. If it did then you would be able to quote the part that does.

You try to argue that adc are the true carries in this game

Logical fallacy, strawman. You do not accurately represent what I actually said.

for no reason when historically we had more than 1 carry in the game and that was not over the others, but for some reason you are unable to understand this thing. This game can have more carries and it should have more carries. Not just your precious press right click carries.

Logical fallacy, argumentum ad assertion.

You are merely only repeating what you already said rather than disproving what I said. My last post already dealt with why your argument and line of reasoning is in error, and you have not attempted to directly disprove my points or offer up new reasoning that validates your original points.

You demonstrate with your post that you dont appear to understand the conceptual difference between carrying a game and being "the carry". A support in dota can carry a game with thier clutch plays, but they arent the designated carry for the team. The carry is given the safelane, support players, and the majority of the gold with the expectation that they can carry the team the hardest in the late game. The same concept exists in lol with ranged adcs in botlane with support.

AjXtarApr 30, 20181 votes

ADC (Attack Damage Carry) is an archaic term used to refer to a champion that deals strong, continuous damage with their basic attacks and scales with attack-related stats - i.e. attack damage, critical strike chance and attack speed.

replaced with Marksman, to distinguish between Ranged role ranged basic attackers (including those that do not build AD, e.g. Azir) and the ability to carry, with Melee role melee ADCs being distributed between the Slayer icon Slayer and Fighter icon Fighter roles

There. Read the bold part a thousand times and see that even wiki contradicted you.

"The carry is given the safelane, support players, and the majority of the good"

Since when? League was never like that. Only recently was changed to be like that because of poor balance. A carry in this game were mages, assassins, marksman and fighters. All of them were equally good at carrying the game.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea about the history of this game and you try to argue with me about things you don't understand or even experienced in the first place.

Give it a rest.

Risen29Apr 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There. Read the bold part a thousand times and see that even wiki contradicted you.

It did not contradict anything I ever said, but because you have a wrong idea of what I said you erronously think it does (this goes back to your strawman fallacy)

I refer you back to what I already explained for you again the last post: you are confusing the concept of carrying a game with being the ADC. The ADC is a very specific term designating specific role on the team. A role that only marksmen can fulfill. Thats why marksmen use to be called ADCs, as the wiki states.

As I already said, the only reason we have a marksman role name in the first place was to establish why some ad auto attackers were designated and called the ADCs for the team but others werent. That difference was ranged attacks.

"The carry is given the safelane, support players, and the majority of the good"

Since when? League was never like that.

You're wrong. ADCs have always had supports and were given all the gold for thier lane.

A carry in this game were mages, assassins, marksman and fighters. All of them were equally good at carrying the game.

Your statement is easily disproven by the fact that having at least one ADC on the team (before they were called marksman) was always and still is a requirement when dealing with teams that know what they are doing. If the ADC/marksmen did not have the potential to carry the late game the hardest then there would have been no reason to put up with thier poor early and average mid game. You are factually wrong to claim anything else has the potential to carry as well as a marksman late game.

Of course, part of the problem with balance now is that the ADC has an exceptional mid game and isnt as bad early game. Thats why mages and assassins cant carry the mid game like they use to.

Risen29May 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It didn't contradict anything when it specifically mentioned melee ADC too and said that not only marksman are adc? Huh.

You failed to understand what I said. The reason they had to come up with the marksman designation is precisely because they filled a different role in the game than melee adcs.

That is why, when anyone used the term "ADC" in LoL, it was universally known to be referring to the ranged ADC in bot lane. Nobody ever referred to the Master Yi in the jungle as the ADC of the team.

That's why, even when Ziggs is picked in the bottom position, people still refer to it as playing "Ziggs ADC", even though he fits none of the attributes of an attack damage carry. Because being the ADC is associated with being a marksman, who occupy bottom lane to farm safely with a support.

That's also why, when even something that doesn't scale with crit/AS/AD goes botlane, like Mordekaiser, even Riot calls him a "melee ADC" because of the map position he is intended to fill rather than the attributes of how his champion works. This proves that the term ADC has become so associated with marksmen in botlane, that botlane has become known as the ADC position regardless of what kind of champion is plugged into there.

Marksman are required for taking towers. That's why they are required in the game.

No, they aren't "required". You just disproved your own statement by saying Ziggs could do it.

Any mage can get a damage amp vs towers after the change to tower damage to be impacted by AP levels. Ziggs is just the best at it because of his passive.

In fact, at some point the marksman was replaced by ziggs because it could fulfill the same job as marksman.

No, that is not the only role, and never has been. Ziggs cannot fulfill the other key role of a marksman. The role of a marksman is to burn down the enemy team's frontline safely from range as part of a teamfight. That's why the marksman is the #1 priority of the enemy team, and the #1 peel priority for your team. Melee ADCs have never been able to function reliably in this role because they are too easily CC'd and killed attempting it. Mages can never fulfill this role because they don't scale well enough to do it.

That's why marksmen and a support in botlane have been the meta since season 1.

Proving this is the fact that, even in an example of a pro player picking ziggs bot lane, you see that they still had an ADC on their team - corki. He was just in the support position. But he still has the capability to do his job late game if need be.

No sane pro team would pick ziggs adc without also having a genuine ADC (marksman) in another position to pick up the slack during teamfights later in the game.

BestPudgeNAApr 28, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIvEW1LK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-27T23:26:03.452+0000)

This is how it's always been for most MOBA style games. The whole reason they are called 'carries' is that if you can get them to late game, they will carry you to victory.

This is literally never how it was in Dota. This isn't how most other Mobas work. There isn't a single moba that i've played beside LoL that is like this. It's literally only at one item duskblade/lichbane spike that they don't do as much DPS as assassins do burst. Even a super fed Viper(Dota ADC style carry) still takes like 5-6seconds to kill someone.

It's not just that Zeal items are too cheap and global gold is too quick. Crit as a stat is just blatantly OP. IE needs to be gutted and on hit ADC like Kog/Varus do way to high % damage.

Supports in LOL are much weaker then supports in DOTA. ALI in no way peels or has near the engage range that Earthshaker does, Lulus CC isn't in the same ballback as Enchanters Charm. No CC last as long as silencers global 6 Second Silence

SaiannaApr 28, 20183 votes

This is how it's always been for most MOBA style games.

Played 3 MOBAs in my life: LOL, HOTS and Strife

Only in LoL ADC can facetank an assassin without issues.

Snowman ArcApr 28, 201813 votes

I don't understand why people are having so much trouble dealing with this idea. This ONLY HAPPENS AT FULL BUILD, and that's what's supposed to happen. You never see an ADC have as much damage as a Zed, for example, up until much later in the game.

Also, another thing you seem to ignore is that Talon also has other tools he can utilize. He has an invisibility mechanic, insane mobility as well. Even if he gets caught, he will probably manage to escape, if he doesn't kill you first. Caitlyn won't do that.

Risen29Apr 28, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIvEW1LK,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-04-28T11:52:18.869+0000)

I don't understand why people are having so much trouble dealing with this idea. This ONLY HAPPENS AT FULL BUILD, and that's what's supposed to happen.

Dead wrong. I've already addressed it in the above posts. It happens right after the early game is over.

Also, another thing you seem to ignore is that Talon also has other tools he can utilize. He has an invisibility mechanic, insane mobility as well. Even if he gets caught, he will probably manage to escape, if he doesn't kill you first. Caitlyn won't do that.

I didn't forget it, you just fail to understand why it's irrelevant. Running around does you no good if you can never kill anything important in a teamfight in mid-late game, and your early game is irrelevant aside from what happens in bot lane.

Snowman ArcApr 28, 20182 votes

Ok, look I just played 2 Zed games, 1 Ekko, 1 Fizz game on my silver 3 smurf. In one of the Zed games, I was able to destroy the enemy Vayne through Nami's Exhaust almost everytime I got to her. She didn't have any time to even respond. In the Ekko game, I had an enemy Varus who, even though I was underfed and he had like 3-4 kills, I was able to kill him easily at around 15 minutes (that game ended shortly after because there was a Kata who finished 37/2 lol). The other Zed game went kinda like the Vayne one. Oh, I also played an Akali game where I got a pentakill as well.

The common thing about all those games (5/5 games where I played an assassin) is that throughout all game, the ADC was feeling useless and I was able to destroy it even through their support trying their hardest. It's not that I was particularly overfed or something (I wouldn't call being 2/1 at 10 minutes fed) and I'm not really experienced at playing those champions ( only played like 5 times each max), yet I always managed to kill the ADC. Therefore, I don't understand this trend that ADCs outdamage assassins starting from 15 minutes on.

Rathar DashingApr 28, 201810 votes

The practice tool isn't really the best way to determine a champion's DPS. You have all sorts of factors, like targets always having 100 armor/MR. This makes penetration values seem more different than they are. For instance, Talon's lethality would greatly increase his damage against targets with little or no armor built (IE less than 100) while Jinx's Last Whisper would function better on higher-armor targets, while Talon would barely make a dent.

You also have to worry about the fact they have ridiculously high HP values, making items like Blade of the Ruined King seem WAY more valuable than they actually are.

Also, in the practice tool, you don't have to wait 30-45 minutes to hit your full build, you don't have any chance of the assassin getting ahead, you don't have the need to outplay a practice dummy with invisibility, positioning, CC, item use, etc, and you don't have other players shielding/peeling for either the assassin OR adc.

tldr; the practice tool should not be used to "prove" anything, except that the late-game oriented class does more damage in a vacuum than the class that falls off late.

Risen29Apr 28, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIvEW1LK,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-04-28T08:59:52.963+0000)

The practice tool isn't really the best way to determine a champion's DPS. You have all sorts of factors, like targets always having 100 armor/MR. This makes penetration values seem more different than they are.

Completely wrong. Most champions have 80-100 base armor at level 18. So a practice dummy with 100 base armor is a reasonable approximation to what a level 18 player will face.

You can run the raw math for yourself if you want, but I guarantee you that losing an extra 10-20 armor off the practice dummy won't change the fact that Jinx is still the superior damage dealer at 2 seconds.

You also have to worry about the fact they have ridiculously high HP values, making items like Blade of the Ruined King seem WAY more valuable than they actually are.

Completely wrong, because it's irrelevant to the subject we're talking about. None of the champions that were a part of this discussion deal % health or build items that do it.

Also, in the practice tool, you don't have to wait 30-45 minutes to hit your full build, you don't have any chance of the assassin getting ahead, you don't have the need to outplay a practice dummy with invisibility, positioning, CC, item use, etc, and you don't have other players shielding/peeling for either the assassin OR adc.

Irrelevant. You don't need full build for Jinx to be superior I damage dealing in that same 2-4 seconds window that AD assassins use. Anyone who plays these assassins can tell you from experience that mid game, when ADCs get 2-3 items, they are already superior.

Furthermore, you ignored the part, or didn't understand the part, where ADCs are getting their items about 10 minutes faster than they use to. The window of AD assassin effectiveness is almost nil these days.

Rathar DashingApr 28, 20184 votes

Wow, someone's arguing from emotion.

I'm not even saying you're wrong, just that your methodology is highly flawed.

Risen29Apr 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIvEW1LK,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-04-28T18:26:13.851+0000)

Wow, someone's arguing from emotion.

Logical fallacy, ad hominem.

I gave you factual, logical reasons why your arguments were wrong.

Your only response is to attack me and accuse me of not using reason/facts/logic - but you are unable to demonstrate or argue why what I said is wrong.

I'm not even saying you're wrong, just that your methodology is highly flawed.

Logical fallacy, argumentum ad assertion.

Merely stating something doesn't make it true.

If you can't give reasons and logic to demonstrate why my methodology is flawed then you have proven nothing. Your assertion is baseless and my points remain unchallenged.

Rathar DashingApr 28, 20186 votes

sigh alright then. Didn't know this was debate team.

Most champions have 80-100 base armor at level 18. So a practice dummy with 100 base armor is a reasonable approximation to what a level 18 player will face.

Of the 140 champions in the game, 122 have less than 100 base armor at level 18. The other 18 champions have greater than 100 (with the closest being Malphite at 100.8, before you factor in his varying passive armor increase). At level 18, Assuming talon buys 2 lethality items and has sudden impact, he has access to 46 lethality and thus 46 armor pen. Against all of these targets, Talon effectively ignores 46 armor. Next, let's assume Jinx has Lord Dominik's Regards. She has 35% bonus armor pen, which does nothing to a practice dummy whose armor is all base.

Talon, against a target with 75 armor, is dealing 77.5% of the damage he would otherwise deal, against 100 armor 65%, and against 125 armor 55.8%, to give some values. Jinx, against these same values, would deal 57.1%, 50%, and 44.4% respectively, assuming none of that armor is bonus armor. This shows that variance in armor, as it increases, puts talon at a further and further disadvantage as time goes on comparatively to Jinx. Again, the early game class would be dealing around or sometimes even over 100% of their physical damage to targets early, while Jinx would be highly weakened by even champions with moderate armor until she buys LW.

None of the champions that were a part of this discussion deal % health or build items that do it.

Again, wrong. Jinx, along with many other late scaling ADCs take Lord Dominiks Regards, especially when trying to maximize DPS in certain matchups. This item provides up to +20% bonus damage to targets based on how much more health they have than you. Against the target dummy, this would always be active. There also exists the Cut Down rune, which is a weaker version of this while, seldom used, also provides the same effect, up to 12%. And yes, Jinx, along with many others, can build BotRK. It's good to pair with Rageblade as another powerful on-hit move, and allows your Runaan's bolts to deal significantly more damage.

Irrelevant. You don't need full build for Jinx to be superior I damage dealing in that same 2-4 seconds window that AD assassins use.

While jinx might be better at dealing pure damage over 4 seconds than Talon, she doesn't have nearly the same kinds of tools he does. She doesn't have a dash she can use several times in a fight to escape all sorts of retaliation or to engage surprisingly, she doesn't have invisibility, and she doesn't have the luxury of being able to instantly stack her passive and rageblade as you seem to think she does.

Anyone who plays these assassins can tell you from experience that mid game, when ADCs get 2-3 items, they are already superior.

Wrong. I know several assassin mains that agree that ADCs can out-scale you like there's no tomorrow, but as long as you're an assassin and you're actually good at your job, and the enemy ADC isn't 10/1, you can kill a caught-out target faster than they can kill you. Mid game is where assassins peak. It's also when ADCs come online.

Furthermore, you ignored the part, or didn't understand the part

Ad hominem. Of course I understand your argument. ADCs getting their items early wasn't what I was arguing. I'm just arguing that the practice tool is not a good place to conduct research for comparison purposes, for all the reasons I've given. It's just not a level playing field (see "elevation in league" for the pun I just made).

If you can't give reasons and logic to demonstrate why my methodology is flawed then you have proven nothing.

I gave you several, and I just gave you more. Not trying to say you have confirmation bias, wouldn't want to get accused of another ad hominem, but perhaps you should find other ways to prove this than the practice tool. I'd be glad to see you try.

Sp33d Zer0Apr 28, 20184 votes

While I appreciate you using actual numbers to back up your claims, this guy is not going to bother reading it.

Rathar DashingApr 28, 20182 votes

Oh he read it alright. He just refuses to believe it. You can't beat a chicken in a game of chess.

I'm done. He can believe what he wants, my intelligence is wasted here /s

Sp33d Zer0Apr 28, 20182 votes

I thought it was a good read

Rathar DashingApr 28, 20182 votes

awww, thanks~ [sg-jinx]

Risen29Apr 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIvEW1LK,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-28T22:43:10.231+0000)

Oh he read it alright. He just refuses to believe it. You can't beat a chicken in a game of chess.

I'm done. He can believe what he wants, my intelligence is wasted here /s

Danths law: "When someone declares victory in an internet debate, they are almost always the one who hasn't won."

I shot down your last points with reason, showing why they were logically flawed objections. You clearly aren't interested in having real logical discussion about the data and it's implications; which is probably why you originally whined when I challenged you to provide actual supportive arguments to back up your original assertions. You tried, you didn't succeed, so you're going to just tell yourself you won and slink away.

Rathar DashingApr 28, 20185 votes

Somebody call the irony police

VoraciousXApr 27, 20187 votes

I still say fleet footwork was the worst thing they could have done to ADCs. Especially the adding crit to it. It needs to only work on Champion auto attacks like all the other runes. They don't need all that lifesteal + extra healing from fleet + bloodthirster shield. There are other problems obviously but they didn't need to get free kiting tools too.

HarrowRApr 28, 20183 votes

TFW he probably used botrk or didn't even buy boots just to get 6 damage items and probably used lethal tempo to somehow prove adcs are busted vs a 100 armor target,not to mention Shiv and RFC give a burst of damage so if you hit the target dummy 5-6 times you can get some big numbers but then they go down,also:

No one builds Rageblade on Cait or Jinx
No one will have 6 items untill very late into the game
People wont sell their boots to get 3 zeal items,usually at least
If you go 6 damage items + Lethal Tempo you have no lifesteal
Practice tool =/= real game
No matter how much DPS Jinx has she still can't hit the back line if the enemy is grouped,if she tries she dies,if Talon/Kha/Zed see an opening,they can literally flash and instakill the enemy carry and then probably get away with it,no ADC can flash into 5 people do 2k dmg in an instant and get out alive
ADC is very reliant on their team to be able to do damage,i don't care if Jinx can do 9k dps if you leave her alone or manage to cut her off from her team she dies to any enemy Diver,Assassin,Juggernaut,Slayer etc.
DPS on a Practice tool doesn't prove anything,i can get 1.5k DPS with Cassiopea,if i stay in the practice tool for 40 minutes i can get Veigar R to do 10 k damage,this posts feel like people trying to get some attention,or up votes or some sort of validation.

Rathar DashingApr 28, 20184 votes

If you go 6 damage items + Lethal Tempo you have no lifesteal

item 3812 item 3072 though?

HarrowRApr 28, 20183 votes

Then you don't get 1800 dps,plus no one builds Guinsoo on Jinx or Cait,plus you have to consider that that is literally the purpose of an ADC,to deal the most damage on your team late game,im not sure what's the point of this post,you proved adc deal most damage with 6 items? Did you start playing league yesterday? ADCs can't do stuff assassins can do,and that's go in kill a Target instantly and get out,like i said i don't care if Cait can do 10k dps,she can't hit the back line as well as Rengar or Kha or Zed can,a full build 1.8k dps cait still loses in a 1v1 vs Rengar,cause rengar only needs 1 second to deal 3k damage and he gets to do it first

Risen29Apr 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Then you don't get 1800 dps,plus no one builds Guinsoo on Jinx or Cait,plus you have to consider that that is literally the purpose of an ADC,to deal the most damage on your team late game,im not sure what's the point of this post,you proved adc deal most damage with 6 items?

I already addressed and shot down those two points in previous posts. Read the thread before responding.

ADCs can't do stuff assassins can do,and that's go in kill a Target instantly and get out,

No, they can't. I've already explained why. You can read the thread to find the answers in previous posts.

like i said i don't care if Cait can do 10k dps,she can't hit the back line as well as Rengar or Kha or Zed can,

Getting to the backline doesn't mean anything if you can't kill the carry before you die.

a full build 1.8k dps cait still loses in a 1v1 vs Rengar,cause rengar only needs 1 second to deal 3k damage and he gets to do it first

Mathematically you're an idiot for even trying to suggest that. It takes 3 seconds for Rengar to get off his burst combo, not 1. And you're not going to reach 3k damage without multiple auto attacks added on after his combo. Caitlyn will do more damage than Rengar will in those 3 seconds. Not only were you too lazy to read the thread, you were too lazy to even figure out how long it takes for Rengar to cycle through his damage rotation.

Rengar has no hope of winning a strait up fight like this unless he is able to get a lot of free shots off before she returns fire.

HarrowRApr 28, 20187 votes

If im a mathematically an idiot,then you're an idiot in every other possible regard and aspect in life,if you really think cait has any chance vs rengar in a 1v1 with his ult up,also how do you call me lazy when you say Rengar cant get his burst off in 1 combo,it took me 15 seconds to get into the practice tool with Rengar and prove you wrong https://i.gyazo.com/0dbd4a6073c2a19b5dc92f6288cbe914.png

AND THIS IS WITHOUT HIS BONETOOTH NECKLACE BONUS I REPEAT ITS WITHOUT HIS BONUS THAT GIVES HIM 300 FREE DAMAGE

4627 DPS LITERALLY PROVES YOU'RE WRONG IN SAYING HE CAN'T GET HIS COMBO OFF IN LESS THAN 3 SECONDS,ANYONE THAT PLAYED THE GAME KNOWS RENGAR CAN DO HIS FULL COMBO IN LESS THAN ONE SECOND ITS LIKE YOU'RE LITERALLY TRYING TO LIE YOUR WAY INTO WINNING THE ARGUMENT JESUS

Risen29Apr 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

,it took me 15 seconds to get into the practice tool with Rengar and prove you wrong

Your own test also disproves your claim to be able to do it in one second. Your test also doesn't prove much else without listing what you built and did. I can inflate rengars numbers too if I build full crit and botrk, turning him into a melee adc. But that's not a realistic way to build rengar.

Rathar DashingApr 28, 20183 votes

THIS. Thank you so much for some solid, indisputable evidence. [sg-ahri-2]

HarrowRApr 28, 20182 votes

He doesn't give up,he's still trying to prove me wrong saying this picture proves me wrong and somehow reveals he's right and that Rengar can't do his full combo in 1 sec and he can't deal 3k damage with it...i mean this guy is basically a flat earther but in league.

Rathar DashingApr 28, 20183 votes

He's in too deep at this point. I don't blame him, I was them same when I was 12.

HarrowRApr 28, 20182 votes

Ikr

Risen29Apr 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIvEW1LK,comment-id=000d00010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-28T21:50:57.337+0000)

THIS. Thank you so much for some solid, indisputable evidence. [sg-ahri-2]

I just disproved it. So, next time, try to think for yourself. Don't just believe something just because they throw up some numbers and they say it supports what you want to be true.

HarrowRApr 28, 20184 votes

How TF did you disprove it,please don't make me download some free video recording software just so i can film myself like a moron jumping on a target dummy with Rengar

IRFodderMay 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If im a mathematically an idiot,then you're an idiot in every other possible regard and aspect in life,if you really think cait has any chance vs rengar in a 1v1 with his ult up,also how do you call me lazy when you say Rengar cant get his burst off in 1 combo,it took me 15 seconds to get into the practice tool with Rengar and prove you wrong https://i.gyazo.com/0dbd4a6073c2a19b5dc92f6288cbe914.png

AND THIS IS WITHOUT HIS BONETOOTH NECKLACE BONUS I REPEAT ITS WITHOUT HIS BONUS THAT GIVES HIM 300 FREE DAMAGE

4627 DPS LITERALLY PROVES YOU'RE WRONG IN SAYING HE CAN'T GET HIS COMBO OFF IN LESS THAN 3 SECONDS,ANYONE THAT PLAYED THE GAME KNOWS RENGAR CAN DO HIS FULL COMBO IN LESS THAN ONE SECOND ITS LIKE YOU'RE LITERALLY TRYING TO LIE YOUR WAY INTO WINNING THE ARGUMENT JESUS

So, true, can't count how many times a rengar has managed to insta gib in less than a second, with the new threat mechanic all I can do is clap and say well played.

Risen29Apr 28, 20182 votes

{quoted} probably used lethal tempo to somehow prove adcs are busted vs a 100 armor target

You must not understand that, at level 18, all champions have an average of 80-100 base armor. So the practice dummy's armor isn't as imposing as you seem to think it is.

not to mention Shiv and RFC give a burst of damage so if you hit the target dummy 5-6 times you can get some big numbers but then they go down,also:

Hitting the target repeatedly will lower your overall DPS in that case. Actually, the ADCs I tested will do HIGHER DPS in a short time because of the bursty nature of shiv and RFC. So the situation for assassins is actually worse than the numbers show.

No one builds Rageblade on Cait or Jinx

Not really relevant. Jinx will still utterly destroy an assassin without it. Cait will do comparable damage in that 2 second window, but even if she does a bit less damage the larger point remains the same - which is that any marginal damage bonus you have as an assassin in that 1-2 second window is really not worth all you give up, especially when you probably won't kill the adc anyway.

No one will have 6 items untill very late into the game

Irrelevant. As I already said, ADCs will outperform assassins with 3 items. But showing how they perform with six items just shows why it's so bad that they accelerated gold gain.

People wont sell their boots to get 3 zeal items,usually at least

The ADCs I used had attack speed boots.

Ironically, it's the assassins who I took the boots off of and put an extra damage item on. And even then they still couldn't cut it.

If you go 6 damage items + Lethal Tempo you have no lifesteal

Bloodthirster is a damage item. Precision mastery will also give you quite a lot of lifesteal with the sheer amount of damage you are doing. It's amazing how much ADCs can lifesteal using just their leftover dorans blade in the mid game! It's because they output so much raw damage per second that even a few percentage points means a lot of healing.

Practice tool =/= real game

DPS on a Practice tool doesn't prove anything,

Logical fallacy. Just stating something doesn't make it true. You give no supporting argumentation or facts.

Unless you can demonstrate mathematically or logically why the practice tool wouldn't work out like a real game, the results remain valid.

No matter how much DPS Jinx has she still can't hit the back line if the enemy is grouped,if she tries she dies,if Talon/Kha/Zed see an opening,they can literally flash and instakill the enemy carry and then probably get away with it,no ADC can flash into 5 people do 2k dmg in an instant and get out alive

This is where you really don't understand the dynamics of the current game - There is no backline worth hitting besides the adc. The ADC IS the backline. And you won't kill it. There's no point in accessing the back line if you can't kill it.

Killing the enemy mage, and suiciding in the process, isn't going to accomplish anything significant for your team.

ADC is very reliant on their team to be able to do damage,i don't care if Jinx can do 9k dps if you leave her alone or manage to cut her off from her team she dies to any enemy Diver,Assassin,Juggernaut,Slayer etc.

Several flaws with your statement.

There's no reason you should catch the ADC out from their team if you're playing above bronze. Because mid game team grouping and pushing turrets comes so quickly there's really never a chance for the assassin to catch anyone important out alone.
ADCs aren't even vulnerable once they get some items and have good reaction speed to getting attacked. With attackspeed/lifesteal they will kill anyone who doesn't have hard CC. They will lifesteal to sustain through your burst and burst you down right back. The only non-adc that could potentially out-trade them is an auto attack melee fighter who also has lifesteal and items and is able to nullify or minimize the ADC's range advantage and not get kited.

HarrowRApr 28, 20182 votes

[deleted]

Risen29Apr 28, 20182 votes

{quoted} ,if ADCs are so BEYOND GODLIKE

I never said that. Rephrase your question based on what I actually said, instead of using the logical fallacy of a strawman argument, and you'll get an answer.

I don't think you really know how this game works,you're only silver

Logical fallacy, ad hominem.

You aren't able to factually argue against what I've said, so you turn to personal attacks.

If you were really as smart and knowledgeable about the game as you think you are, you wouldn't get so flustered and unable to respond to my arguments in a reasoned and logical way.

Back in season 5 or something there was a really really bad tank meta,

That's all well and good, but completely irrelevant to any point made in this thread.

Either way this build will not do 1800dps to any tank,

Nobody said anything about tanks. Irrelevant to this discussion.

The issue here is that ADCs can burst damage as well as an assassin in 2 seconds thanks to all the delayed damage on assassins and the faster gain of their items to hit the sweet spot where they can combine good amounts of extra attackspeed with both large amounts of extra damage and crit, after the early game.

Also Assassins are there to be mobile,to roam lanes,to kill squishies,to go in when there's an opportunity and deal damage where the ADC can'

I've already dealt with those points in previous posts. You've added nothing new to that discussion.

Being mobile doesn't mean anything if the enemy team is all grouped and you have no capacity to teamfight well. Roaming ceases to be of much relevance for assassins after the early game is over.

Killing "squishes" in general doesn't accomplish much in a teamfight unless you get the ones that are really a threat, especially if you die in the process and are really just trading kill for kill. Killing the enemy mage doesn't mean much. The targets you really want, the ADC and sometimes the support, are targets you likely won't be able to kill.

There's no point in "going in" if you will just get CC'd and killed, or the ADC can survive you burst and kill you in retaliation.

most of all they are there to be dominant in the mid game so their team can secure objectives easier thus leading to a victory easier.

Proving you don't actually play assassins. The whole point of this thread is that they aren't dominant mid game. They are trash teamfighters and ADCs do basically as much burst damage as assassins mid game anyway. ADCs rule mid game.

Assassins are only useful right now in the early game if you can gank to snowball your own ADCs. And the early game doesn't even last as long as it use to. That's why Talon's winrate falls off like a cliff after the early game.

I'm not sure what your logical explanation is for comparing ADC dps and Assassins,its like saying Tanks are useless cause they don't deal 1.5 k dps.

You seem a bit slow, so I can explain it again for you:

Your analogy is flawed. A more apt analogy would be if ADCs were almost as survivable as tanks yet didn't have to sacrifice their sustained damage. You would rightly ask why the hell anyone would play a tank anymore.

The problem is not that ADCs have sustained damage, but that their DPS is so high by mid game, and assassin damage so delayed, that there's really no reason to play an assassin for mid game when ADCs are functionally assassins able to kill a squishy in two seconds, and unlike an assassin able to extend the fight to finish them off if need be.

There is really no situation in a teamfight where the assassin is superior in mid game. They are only useful early game for ganking. And that only is impactful at high elo where the early game matters a lot. Lower elo makes early game rather meaningless because players don't know how to exploit early mistakes and they throw leads too easily with their own mistakes. In those cases you would never want to play an assassin to climb rank. You need something that can scale into the mid or late game.

One more thing,how do you explain games,and this happens most of the time,where the assassin has more overall damage,or just straight out carries the game,or when a mage does 70k damage while the adc does 40k.

It doesn't happen "most of the time".

In the case of assassins, they can only carry the game if they snowball so hard in the early game that the enemy is never able to recover. So then they spend the rest of the game just clubbing baby seals. When anyone is that fed over the enemy team, they will steam roll you regardless of whether or not they are good teamfighters. But that is never a win condition you can count on happening. Unless you're smurfing or at low elo, your enemy will rarely throw the game that hard. And in those cases, you don't need to be an assassin to do that. Any fighter or juggernaut would accomplish something similar.

In the case of mages, you don't understand how poke damage factors in. Being able to consistently poke the enemy down and rack up high damage numbers doesn't mean that mages have DPS, or even late game burst potential, equivalent to an ADC. This is an example of you not understanding how to analyze statistics, drawing wrong conclusions about how they played out in game.

The facts about ADCs I gave remain unchallenged by your question. All things being equal, ADCs will burst about as well, or better than, an assassin by mid game, and have range/sustained DPS/sustained healing on top of it. The fact that mages inflate damage numbers with consistent poke doesn't mean AP assassins aren't crap mid game compared with ADCs. Nor do isolated cases of assassins snowballing against low skill teams disprove the fact that, all things being equal, the assassins become obsolete mid game.