Streamer quits, outlines some key problems with direction of the game

Risen29··198 votes·26,758 views

I wanted to discuss the points he brought up with the direction of the game. His views reflect some others who have left. And I find that, even though I'm not anywhere near his level, the game is less satisfying and fun than it use to be for the same reasons. I'll link the video at the end of the post but I am going to give some bullet points of what he said so you don't have to watch a five hour video.

He's masters level. Streamer. Coached 1200 different players over the years. Even traveled to Korea to make Diamond 2 with masters MMR in less than a month from unranked. He also almost got hired as a playtester at riot. I have always felt like his analysis of what it takes to win in soloque was the best of anyone else on youtube. Not just because he knows what he's doing but because he's able to analyze and articulate concepts in a way that a lot of top players aren't. Which makes him a better teacher.

Overview and summary of conclusions from streamer’s video: Problem 1: The newbification of the game, and the removal of individual skill expression from the game. ---Every game goes through this phase where they try to make things easier on newbies. Newbies whine about dying to X because they aren't good. Rather than expect newbies to just learn and get good, X is nerfed. ---Increased passive gold gain makes it harder to tell the good players from the bad. ---They keep taking away skill expression that allows people to solo carry. The point is not that any one particular change is a problem, but when taken as a whole they all point towards riot's goal being to raise the skill floor of the game and lower the skill ceiling, constantly taking away the things that skilled/knowledgeable players use to get an advantage over their opponents. --- Laning is boring now. Easy sustain in top lane with stuff like Resolve and Doran’s Shield makes laning phase non-interactive and a waste of time. If he takes those two things, you can be the best top laner in the world but you'll never stop him from just passively farming. He invented the smite top tryndamere strat so he would actually have a way to impact the game when facing all these passive farming top laners. He would go kill the jungler, proxy farm, and take jungle champs after pushing his wave. ---Whenever one dimensional playstyles and tanks become viable, skill expression goes away. ---Winning lane doesn't even matter anymore. Laning is a waste of time. ---It's harder to be a playmaker in this environment. And you're rewarded less for it. Punished too hard if you fail. High elo games are just about farming and not dying until it's time to do objectives or turrets. ---Outplaying people doesn't matter much anymore for determining the outcome of a match. ---Taking risks is not as rewarding. You're better off avoiding fights in most cases. ---You're losing your ability to have control over the game. All roles feel like they have no individual agency to win the game. ---You're also can't come back like you use to. It takes 40 minutes to lose a game that was already decided early on and the whole time you feel like you have no agency over the direction of it. It's not only unfun but it's bad for your streaming audience. ---All of this is why LCS is so boring. ---You use to be able to just laugh at the idiot troll on your team because you had confidence you could carry them anyway. But now all you can do is resent them and get angry at their stupid decisions because they are a barrier to your victory. (I wonder if this is why many people say the game feels like one person can lose you the game but one person can't win the game. Kind of like HotS; when you take away people's ability to solo carry then your team is only ever as strong as your weakest link. And if you have a really weak link then all the enemy team has to do to win is just not be as as incompetent as the weakest link on your team).

Problem 2: How they balance. And the attitude towards competitive. ---Your gameplay pattern is never safe. You learn something, you master it, and they pull the rug out from under you constantly. ---Riot doesn't balance objectively based on what is actually overpowered and what isn't. They balance based off how players feel. Newbs cry and feel bad because they don't know how to counter something or can't be bothered to change their playstyle. So the game is changed to make them feel better about being bad at the game. ---Riot's balance team of top players doesn't have the final input on balance changes. Too many departments, with too many different levels of skill, have too much input on how the game is balanced. By trying to balance the game to be easier for bad players they are removing the skill expression from the game that allows good players to shine. ---Riot postures themselves as a serious competitive game but really they are a casual game pretending to be a competitive game. ---The playerbase also is not that competitive either, even in diamond/masters ranked. He regularly has that one guy on his team who wants to troll, or doesn't care about winning, or wants to try something he's never played before in ranked. And this is at masters level. This isn't good for streaming either, to have so much of your time wasted. It's frustrating because he is serious about wanting to get better and win but too many at that level of play don't feel the same. (This probably wasn’t as much of an issue until the game became harder to solo carry). ----After coming home from the Korean server he was disappointed by the low quality of gameplay on NA. And it sucked having 70 ping instead of 7 ping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSLOG9YE3BE End of summarizing conclusions from streamer’s video.

Now, the following is my personal take on it: Although I am not anywhere near his level, I do feel the impact of a lot of this and it effects my desire to continue playing. I definitely feel like winning lane doesn't mean what it use to years ago. Winning lane moderately doesn’t mean anything. You either need to crush lane and roam to have an impact or you need to find a way to roam without winning lane. You can even completely lose your lane but it doesn’t mean anything as long as you can snowball bot lane by roaming. It also feels like comebacks are not realistically possible like they use to be. You can’t stall things out and farm up. You can’t meaningfully mount a defense anymore under turrets. I definitely feels like sustain is too easy and nullifies a lot of the advantages you would otherwise get over your opponent in trades. And the late game sustain of ADCs nullifies skillful poke or makes them immune to skillful assassination in many cases. I am also surprised that people would play a champion for the first time in ranked. As someone who seriously wants to win and climb, it's annoying to have people trolling in ranked without a serious intention to win.

A similar processes of newbification is why I lost interest in HotS. I didn’t really like the game’s lack of carry potential until I discovered splitpushing with the playstyles some heroes offered (You can't play anything like Sgt Hammer, Abathur, Lost Vikings, or Azmodon in LoL). In a game of shared levels and no items, strategic macro and pressuring lanes was the only way to have control over the course of the game. But eventually they stripped away the strategic elements of the game to be 100% teamfight brawler and made all the specialist heroes I loved playing useless. (I love pushing style heroes. Even since the original early days of Dota, I was always drawn to the ones that could push relentlessly). They basically removed the siege/push class from the game outright and I left, never looking back. Even though it was a fast and simple game, it still had enough strategy that I found it fun. When they took out the strategy and individual carry potential, there was nothing there left for me.

I think what hits the hardest in LoL, though, is constantly feeling like the rug is pulled out from under me. Anytime I find a champion I like it gets nerfed into the ground until it’s either unplayable or simply not as fun as it use to be because they gutted what made it fun in the pursuit of balance.

I played viktor before the LCS discovered him and he was my favorite champion. Now he's an unplayable mess. Azir was my first favorite champion, but LCS loved him too, so now he's a joke. Teemo? Nerfed into ground. Kassadin? Another one of my first favorite champions. Now completely unplayable. I liked the old Fiora and Gangplank but their reworks robbed me of the playstyle I use to enjoy (I enjoyed fiora's all in 1vs9 carry potential, and gangplank's crit rune splitpush style). And I paid real money for the champions and skins. Now they sit on the shelf, unused. Because even though they may be good or viable they are no longer the champion I paid for. Swain. No longer fun for me after the rework. Completely different playstyle. Not the champion I bought. Wasted money again. Malz. Just not as fun as he use to be with void spam pushing down a lane. Talon. I like the rework conceptually, but he just isn’t that viable anymore. I have one champion right now in mind that I want to try to main, but I am certain it’s only a matter of time before they get gutted and nerfed to. Even though they aren’t a high winrate right now. Do I really want to waste my time like that?

172 Comments

Jhynx63 votes

I'm honestly speechless to how much our opinions on this game line up.

You nailed it with this post, i cant disagree with anything here.

Nyarlathοtep46 votes

With all due to respect but

I enjoyed fiora's all in 1vs9 carry potential

is unhealthy. Besides that was only one of her many problems. Her other major problem was that she was one of the most feast or famine champs in the whole game. She was, with all the meaning, broken.

Risen2912 votes

{quoted}

With all due to respect but

is unhealthy. Besides that was only one of her many problems. Her other major problem was that she was one of the most feast or famine champs in the whole game. She was, with all the meaning, broken.

I'm not really disagreeing with that. The new Fiora is better designed and balanced. But the point was that she's just one of many champions I bought for a particular playstyle (I liked her hyper feast or famine playstyle because of the potential it gave me) only to later have that to be removed from the game. It's just not the champion I paid for. And I wish I could have a refund of both her and her skins because I never play her.

I Q17 votes

The feast or famine style wasn't fair to the people in the game. People complain about how "One person losing lane means gg," that was even worse when old fiora was a thing, because if fiora won lane, she could 1v5. If you want a feast or famine champion, play Aatrox, Yasuo, or literally any assassin.

Der Lindwurm28 votes

---Your gameplay pattern is never safe. You learn something, you master it, and they pull the rug out from under you constantly.

This has been by far the most frustrating thing for me.

I mean, of course you have to learn to adapt to different situations. I get frustrated when people want to surrender whenever playing the same way they always do and using the same build they always do isn't working out for them. But, when it comes to mastering your craft and developing your own signature strategies and builds, the constant cycle of buffs and nerfs, champion reworks, and item changes (or outright removal of items) can make it seem like all the effort you've put into learning and improving with a champion suddenly means nothing.

Ratpie5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Der Lindwurm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3inQ28E3,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-04-14T19:38:37.075+0000)

This has been by far the most frustrating thing for me.

I mean, of course you have to learn to adapt to different situations. I get frustrated when people want to surrender whenever playing the same way they always do and using the same build they always do isn't working out for them. But, when it comes to mastering your craft and developing your own signature strategies and builds, the constant cycle of buffs and nerfs, champion reworks, and item changes (or outright removal of items) can make it seem like all the effort you've put into learning and improving with a champion suddenly means nothing.

There are some champs I really miss. I might be alone on this, but I much like the old WW over the new one. Mechanically he was simple, but if you were really good with overall strategy in teh game, you had a lot of map control and his ult wasn't even his best skill. I have only played him a handful of times now, and I do not like his newer kit. He is still one of my top 3 champs in playtime even though I have played him only like 5 times total since the rework. Even when people were saying he was weak, I was still doing really well as my play style is more about map control than burst and kill everything.

FutureCreator4 votes

I feel like this really goes to show an underlying problem in Riot's current design philosophy: A simple kit doesn't make a champion bad!

This is really apparent with reworks like WW and Evelyn and even Swain. These are champions who previously had very straightforward kits that relied more on your ability to position and strategize, rather than landing skillshots, have now, ironically, been dumbed down by shifting the aspect of skill towards landing abilities.

Riot seems to want to get rid of champions with simple kits, because they just aren't "modern" enough. Each new champ that comes out has more and more overbearing abilities, with passives half a page long and a slew of complex effects just for the sake of complexity. You can see this clearly with Zoe, Rakan, Xayah etc. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mind a champion having a complex moveset, but with the reworking spree Riot has been on, it seems like they're hellbent on removing simpler champions from the game.

wiimaster44 votes

Tbh i love new ww, feels way more skill expressive and enjoyable. However, i agree with you that he is very different right now then he was.

2Charmnot2Charm17 votes

Riot's balance team of top players doesn't have the final input on balance changes.

That's what i been saying for ages, it doesn't matter that there is high elo players on the team when the brains of the department is some hardstuck gold/plat player and is clearly biased to the role they main.

Edit: once again low elo adc/support mains downvoting the truth.

ViciousSummoner11 votes

Almost forgot Neace existed. Used to watch him for fun from time to time. He's been saying what was wrong about League for a very long time. Still, Dunkey said it best though when he announced that he was quitting League.

To further expand on the subject the major root of this problem is that US game companies are complete shit when it comes to handling their consumer base. They don't give 2 shits as long as they can milk you as hard as fucking possible.

Risen2924 votes

{quoted}

Almost forgot Neace existed. Used to watch him for fun from time to time. He's been saying what was wrong about League for a very long time. Still, Dunkey said it best though when he announced that he was quitting League.

To further expand on the subject the major root of this problem is that US game companies are complete shit when it comes to handling their consumer base. They don't give 2 shits as long as they can milk you as hard as fucking possible.

I just looked up Dunkey's video and I don't think he said it well at all. His video seems more like sour grapes that he got banned for being toxic. He might express his opinion about the state of the game, but he doesn't articulate very effectively what's the problem and why it's a problem.

That's why I think Neace's analysis of the game has always been so good. He can break things down, analyze them, and communicate that effectively to others.

I Like Things 5 votes

To further expand on the subject the major root of this problem is that US game companies are complete shit when it comes to handling their consumer base.


US game companies

Funny, I didn't know Tencent was a "US game company".

AquariusGine11 votes

I agree with everything except the last part about rework. Fiora, Gangplank, Swain and Talon turned out fantastic. They have clear strengths and weaknesses and all feel very fluid to play. But despite that, I am officially quitting League today. Personally, I feel that Riot has removed almost everything fun about the game.

Risen298 votes

{quoted}

I agree with everything except the last part about rework. Fiora, Gangplank, Swain and Talon turned out fantastic. They have clear strengths and weaknesses and all feel very fluid to play.

My comments aobut Fiora/Gangplank/Swain were not directed at the design quality of the reworks, but on the fact that they are no longer the same champion. The reworks no longer support the playstyles that I enjoyed them for. Swain cannot play as a true draintank anymore. Critplank was gone even before the runes were reworked because his rework no longer supported that style. Not having a movement speed buff makes him less effective as a split pusher. And I find his barrel minigame to be boring and tedious. Fiora may still be a strong duelist, but she doesn't have the all in pentakill potential she use to when she's ahead.

I bought all three of them specifically for those playstyles. Now I no longer play them.

Talon's rework, as I said, I think was conceptually good - but that's because they didn't really change his playstyle. You still play him as a roaming diving assassin. He just operates differently. And had his AoE nerfed. So unless you were really into AOE bomb Talon you probably aren't that disappointed. My problem with Talon's rework is that he's just not as viable. He falls off into an abyss unless you snowball before 10 minutes. The risk is too great and the reward not really worth it. Old Talon had more mid/late power and more potential to make a comeback. He was also easier to use effectively in teamfights when behind. Mainly because it was easier to dive from longer range and you had more AOE damage. Now his dive is so short, his burst so delayed, and he has to sacrifice damage to gapclose, that it's very difficult to stay relevant in a teamfight unless you were already way ahead.

Puppet33r8 votes

I don't think gangplank has a clear weakness. Maybe if he didn't receive free speedboosts from just blowing a barrel(and had to actually smack you in the face with a melee auto for it)... As is he is nearly untouchable for some champions with no dashes.

Pandeonor11 votes

{quoted}

----After coming home from the Korean server, he was disappointed by the low quality of gameplay on NA. And it sucked having 70 ping instead of 7 ping.

It is assumed Korea has (with about 20million) 2,5 times the players of NA (about 8 million) wich lost nearly 1/2 of their playerbase as it was more or less stable in other regions (20million EUW, 11million EUNE, 7million BR....). Naturally the quality goes downwards. Even I don´t know about the 115million players in China on their 28 server.

They balance based off how players feel.

A bit biased, isn´t it. If they do.... why players complain actually? So - they do not, where is his point?

The majority of the points he mentioned beginning with the boring toplane farming seems to be D1+ problems. Let´s call it "LCS-problems".

Maybe he is right with a lack of competitiveness in this regions or the "games goes casual". Question is if this is the problem here.

Winning lane doesn't even matter anymore. Laning is a waste of time.

and later on

It takes 40 minutes to lose a game that was already decided early on

There is not much space left between "laning phase" and "early on". And the same problem as before. Personally I remember some matches wich could be turned.

Same for his statement of risks. If hard punished if it fails - why it is not rewarding if successful?

.... If I fail to kill someone and he kills me - I have lost the game and if I kill him it is not rewarding? ... Or what does he try to tell us there?

Unconvinced. As a whole.

Spicy Rice4 votes
  1. Assuming riot balances off of what people complain about, then there would be no end to complaints. They pacify one group, only to rouse up another.

  2. While there are some exceptions, most problems in game balance should be taken in context of the highest level of play, as that is where people would be playing most optimally.

  3. The way I see it, when he mentions how winning lane doesn't matter, what he is referring to is how getting ahead in lane is useless due to how much games hinge on your worst player being better than their worst player

Pandeonor4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3inQ28E3,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-04-14T21:34:54.254+0000)

  1. Assuming riot balances off of what people complain about, then there would be no end to complaints. They pacify one group, only to rouse up another.

I don´t know how he realizes that riot did what players want to have.

  1. While there are some exceptions, most problems in game balance should be taken in context of the highest level of play, as that is where people would be playing most optimally.

And Riot doesn´t? Just ask. I am a bit confused that highest level of play is extremely more unbalanced yet then before.

  1. The way I see it, when he mentions how winning lane doesn't matter, what he is referring to is how getting ahead in lane is useless due to how much games hinge on your worst player being better than their worst player

That are 5h youtube [I will not sit there 5h and watch it]. But I had luck with some tries. Between 3:37 and 3:40 (and some minutes before). No, that was not his point.

He said that he makes no play because if the vs is competent he could possibly feed. And that high elo is about not feeding. Same in lane or sidelane pushing. No risk. And for him this means not to express himself. Concludent his explaining about that he is someone who wants to actively DO something. He don´t like boring laning as such.

Look at the vid at min 3:37. Come back and explain me if I am wrong.

Edit: Other way ´round this could be a sign of reaching a skillcap. Or not?

egOrhythm2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3inQ28E3,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-04-14T21:34:54.254+0000)

  1. Assuming riot balances off of what people complain about, then there would be no end to complaints. They pacify one group, only to rouse up another.

  2. While there are some exceptions, most problems in game balance should be taken in context of the highest level of play, as that is where people would be playing most optimally.

  3. The way I see it, when he mentions how winning lane doesn't matter, what he is referring to is how getting ahead in lane is useless due to how much games hinge on your worst player being better than their worst player

Nothing I liked better than going 6-0 in lane, getting two items up on enemy ADC only to have their top Ornn show up, press two buttons and now we've lost tower and dragon and they have mid priority.

Like... what am I supposed to do at that point? When my hard work is simply negated by virtue of "fuck you play more tanks"?

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

---Your gameplay pattern is never safe. You learn something, you master it, and they pull the rug out from under you constantly.

I wanna specifically get into this part because I find interesting parallels because I grew up in the FGC. Bear with me because this is a semi-long post.

In the FGC, your play pattern was never safe. Ever. Since Day 1. You were always victim to patches, version updates, etc. Now, the one thing I'll say these had over league/dota/etc. is that you could go back to playing Championship edition rather than final HD remix. But your competition would move on and you would be left dipping your feet into shallow tournament pools comparative to whatever the new hotness is. And this isn't a character specific thing either, as entire systems would be added or removed version-by-version.

The major difference, however, is that the FGC accepted this. The FGC realized that this wasn't something that was going to change and you had to stay on the top of your game. It's why the FGC has crazy figures like Daigo Umehara who routinely bounces back and adapts or SonicFox who somehow always figures out how to perform amazingly no matter what game he picks up.

Now let's look at a game that has never pulled the rug out: Smash Melee. Smash melee might pull big numbers but the tournament scene is rather stagnant in both characters and players. A new player isn't as invested in picking up melee because it's insanely hard to compete against someone with ten years of experience, skill, practice and muscle memory. It's why the top end of melee sees a huge amount of the same players even to this day. If the FGC was the ultimate in evolution, Smash was the ultimate in stagnation.

Now, again, maybe this is me coming from the FGC, but I feel no qualms with the rug being pulled out from under your or myself. It sucks, sure, but that's life. You shouldn't be crying when your Zero lightning loops are taken away from you in the new Marvel vs. Capcom game. You need to adapt and overcome. I'm sure there's someone who will try to be cheeky and say "NU I CANT RITO WUNT LET ME" but that's a whole different can of worms. There's also a reason why there's a mix of old and new in the pro scene: Guys like Doublelift can adapt and overcome even after all these years yet there's still a place for newcomers, so long as they can adapt as the game changes.

In truth, his problem is more with games as a whole than league. This is the direction gaming is going: Patches, fixes and major updates that drastically change the game. But without getting into every aspect of his argument (Some I agree, some I disagree), the big one for me is that he's upset gameplay changes. Unfortunately for some and happily for others, this is just how we're going forward as an industry.

Elkington8 votes

The funny thing is these issues have been a thing on SR for a while, they've just been exascerbated over the years in an effort to make games faster and more exciting.

Dominion removed well over half of the problems of SR, which people would have finally seen had it not gotten removed due to obscurity. Since there are no decent alternative modes left to play, people are simply leaving.

This is what happens when Riot puts all of their time and resources into one thing, while neglecting everyone and everything else.

LVL99 Helper TK8 votes

I made this exact same thread and it got immediately buried by edgy bronze ADC players.

This community devolved into a cesspool of toxic asshole pieces of shit as a result of riot making the game a piece of shit.

Spice and Wolf6 votes

Don't downvote this guy. You felt your ass burned and started to downvote? This community is shit.

ValyrianBlade8 votes

I mean, I thought most of it was okay, but I stopped reading after the "whenever tanks become viable, skill expression goes away".

That's total BullShit and the guy is completely biased and obviously has no credibility. I don't care what elo he is, or what regions he's gotten it in. He's a biased player and his opinion means nothing if he thinks an entire class of champions can't be viable without taking skill expression away.

Tanks will ALWAYS be viable. They are probably the most viable class in league at all times. They're not going to carry. You're not going to have a lot of agency over an individual match as a tank. You are, however, going to contribute more to your team than your lane opponent in most of your matches, and as a result win more than 50% of your games.

This guy has a wrong opinion because he's a high-mmr player that goes on smurf accounts. Obviously for him, tanks aren't a great decision, because he knows he can solo carry almost any team in lower elo. However that's the whole point - tanks are viable at helping you win games when you play reasonably well for the elo you're in. You're not going to get an 85% win rate on a tank climbing on a smurf, when you might pull that off on a carry. However if you main tanks and don't make macro decisions that are worse than your elo, you'll probably win 51-55% of games overall. That's viable and doesn't take anything away from skill expression.

Just because he, as a carry top laner, can't figure out how to beat a tank consistently, doesn't mean that skill expression is being removed. It means his skill expression is lacking. He can't figure out how to beat it, so it must be OP. Right... that's the exact mindset that we use to recognize silver players, so why does a Master player have that mindset?

I read a few more comments and while nothing topped that one, there were other dumb comments too. "---Winning lane doesn't even matter anymore. Laning is a waste of time. ---It's harder to be a playmaker in this environment. And you're rewarded less for it. Punished too hard if you fail. High elo games are just about farming and not dying until it's time to do objectives or turrets. ---Outplaying people doesn't matter much anymore for determining the outcome of a match. ---Taking risks is not as rewarding. You're better off avoiding fights in most cases. ---You're losing your ability to have control over the game. All roles feel like they have no individual agency to win the game. ---You're also can't come back like you use to. It takes 40 minutes to lose a game that was already decided early on and the whole time you feel like you have no agency over the direction of it. It's not only unfun but it's bad for your streaming audience."

Responses to these ridiculous comments:

  • we're in a season where average game length in Korea Challenger at one point was under 15 minutes. How could laning not matter?
  • It's not a bad thing that it's harder to be a playmaker. That introduces skill expression. If it was easy, everyone could do it, and how could you be better?
  • Outplaying doesn't matter anymore? Except he just said you're punished too hard when you fail. He didn't fail, he got outplayed, and that outplay clearly mattered in his eyes because he thought he was punished too hard
  • Taking risks is more rewarding, it's just that the risks are largely reversed now. The risks people take are baiting him into taking a risk, and having an ally nearby to turn it. He's getting outplayed, and blaming it on the meta rather than his ability to adapt.
  • Losing control over the game is again his problem. If he's getting a lead, he's not bringing it elsewhere. It sounds more from his other complaints though that he's not getting a lead anymore, which no doubt he won't have control then. There's no doubt that there's still loads of control from good players in this game. The difference is that the controlling player isn't going 17/1/0 and carrying 1v5. The controlling player is going 9/1/8 and helping his allies get up 8 kills and letting the whole team dominate and win. I can't tell you how many times you see a Lee Sin or whatever gank lanes, and the laner will blow flash-ignite and it will be a certain kill (one auto from dead, you're a ranged laner and enemy is in melee range) and Lee Sin will take the kill when he's already 4/0/0. He falls off. I just blew my summoners. You want to win, let me carry with you. A 0/0/5 mid laner with no summoners isn't going to solo-wreck their lane opponent when they come back. This is a team game, and people wanted the ability to beat the one guy that popped off, because more often than not he didn't get fed because he was good, he got fed because his lane opponent (or whoever he killed) was bad. It's about 4 good players carrying one bad one, not one good player winning 1v5 where four of his opponents were just as good as him, because he went up against 1 bad one.
  • You can come back. This one almost beats the tanks being viable comment. It's ridiculous to feel this way. This comment contradicts every one of those previous comments. If laning doesn't matter, then you must be able to come back from a big laning deficit. If it's hard to be a playmaker, you must be able to come back from someone that made some early plays because his lead isn't enough to make plays easily and consistently still (and he'll get cocky and die for it). If outplaying doesn't matter to decide the outcome, then all those earlier outplays that put you behind shouldn't make it too hard to come back. Risks aren't rewarding? I guess all those early risks to get a lead must mean nothing because it's easy to come back. You're losing control over the game? Guess it's easy to come back. This comment is so dumb it's unbelievable.

Honestly, all of these "high elo" players whining about the state of the game have one thing in common: they fail to adapt. Yes, the game has changed a bit. None of their assessments ever seem true though. You're not going to win by going 6/0/0 in top lane and just staying top all game. This is a team game. You can't have it both ways, where your ally can feed like mad 1v1 and you're able to make up for it by coordinating and taking down the fed opponent, but also you want to be able to carry 1v5. That's not possible, ever. Either a solo-fed player can carry, or he can't. These guys all want it to be that if they're fed they can carry, but if it's an opponent they can't. Not realistic.

Get ahead, and bring that lead elsewhere, and you'll do well. In any elo. The top players are still consistently at the top with ludicrous win rates. You can't tell me there isn't something they're doing right that other top players aren't.

The washed up guys are just whining because their time has passed and they haven't adapted to thrive in the current environment. It doesn't mean you can't thrive in the current environment.

hiukas6 votes

I agree... The game is past its prime for sure...

GraveGalius6 votes

As a jungler, i miss season 4 League, everyone was OP when ahead and useless when behind, the game wasn't perfect, but surely was fun.

In season 4 as a jungler you could play double the amount of champions you can play now, mostly due to lack of mana sustain, now you can't even play some champions cause they don't have the damage or the mana to stay in the jungle, some champions are even abandoned because the jungle items don't give anything or enough to be useful in the game (diana dmg, fiddlesticks dmg, pantheon mana problems, maokai mana problems etc..).

On one thing i completely agree with the guy, champion reworks should only be done when a champion mechanic is old and doesn't go with the game style (Yorick for example), but reworking champions or skills only because they're too strong (Fiora, Akali, Katarina, Rengar, LeBlanc) makes them un-fun and unplayable (Fiora is still fun imo, but not like she used to be).

I mean, no one played Rengar for 2 years only because he was absolutely boring to play, and imo he still needs a full revert. Akali is not even played anymore cause is too hard to land the damage you need to kill someone.

Riot in the course of the years removed items and mechanics of the game (like spellvamp), reworked entire items and most of these changes were completely unnecessary.

League of Legend is a Team-based game, we all agree with that, but for how the game is now that means that if you are fed you're not rewarded, you must play around bot lane, you can't play around mid, top or jungle because even if they are fed they can't carry the game (especially jungle) and that is frustrating as hell and is making most of the community not wanting to play anymore, me included

Kyunsei5 votes

Just upvote this 'till the earth explode

Squey5 votes

I played viktor before the LCS discovered him and he was my favorite champion. Now he's an unplayable mess. Azir was my first favorite champion, but LCS loved him too, so now he's a joke. Teemo? Nerfed into ground. Kassadin? Another one of my first favorite champions. Now completely unplayable.

Not only are these completely wrong, they also show how your lack of skill blinds you from even seeing reality. Its the opposite of this.

Every game goes through this phase where they try to make things easier on newbies. Newbies whine about dying to X because they aren't good. Rather than expect newbies to just learn and get good, X is nerfed.

You are just whining because your champ got rightfully nerfed and you no longer are skilled enough to take advantage of them.
Azir is still an S tier mage who is strong all game long and scales into a hyper carry rivaling adc's. Kass is very hard to get a lead on with the introduction of resolve runes, doran shield, corrupting potion, and his passive. He gets a free pass in a lot of mid lane match ups now and it comes down to how he plays the skirmish and pick game. Vik still has the easiest wave clear in the game and nothing really has changed in his kit besides numbers. After your first upgrade, vik is still just as strong as he used to be and might be at his strongest now with the Q changes.

All 3 of the champs you mention are played alot in high elo and do well. Just because your not good with your fav champ unless they are blatantly OP doesnt mean they suck in the hands of good players.

As for teemo, he hasnt really been nerfed. He still has the highest average damage dealt in games he is in multiplied by game length. He still will top your meters even if he is 0-15 as long as he got some ap. The champ has a ton of issues and needs a full rework if he is gonna be playable in competitive.

However when it comes to reworks, i agree that riot does very shitty work (balance and kit wise) most of the time. Karma, talon, swain, malz, LB, ect are all terrible reworks that mains of those champs hated. Some of them are better balanced while others actually got worse. But most of the people that enjoy them now didnt like them pre rework. WW is litteraly the only rework i can think of that the majority of players like.

Ofcourse the game is flying into the trash can. But dont try to shove stuff into your argument that isnt at all true.

Rαy5 votes

This is so ridiculously true in every aspect and I hope Riot will take notice of this thread.

Attticus Finch4 votes

None of these are "key problems", they are at best issues for people who only play in the highest ELOs, and in turn are the least relevant parts of the playerbase due to their size (diamond+ makes up, what, something like 5% of the community's global population?).

The biggest reason for why League is dying is that its been around forever and people get tired of doing the same shit for hundreds of hours. Being one of the most played video games in history, its population was never sustainable.

Wild Herbivore2 votes

Thats a lie.

It's changed drastically from a 5v5 tactical MOBA to a 5v5 Burst or be Burst, hyper-mobile Arena. It's effectively like changing Counterstrike into Unreal Tournament. Then saying to all those who liked the original game "You are burned out. You clearly are just whining for the sake of whining. I'm saying this off the basis that I just got out of puberty so I obviously know what I'm talking about despite that I was still watching Dora the explorer when it came out and gained it's popularity"

Spice and Wolf4 votes

I would really appreciate a response from riot about this stuff. About the future plans and gameplay changes. This shit has been downwards for too long. Just do a megathread or something with changes so we can give oppinions about YOUR future gameplay changes.

Wild Herbivore4 votes

I quit a few weeks into this season, I know i'm a good player, i'm not diamond or anything but I would place myself gold-plat. This season was so cencerous to me, I had a really really good K/D/A and CS score with most towers and most objectives on EVERY TEAM. Every game, i was the best player. I could see it statistically.

But before I quit i ended up with a 14% win rate. Every game, my team fed SO DAMN HARD. Or were just straight up trolling.

Every single game.

I was playing my best character's In every one of my games, destroying my lane. The only time I lost my lane was when I was vs a Masters smurf who was streaming. I even went onto the stream. to see what he said about my playstyle and even he was struggling against me. he did beat me, but he was playing Camille.... and yano... she's still infuriatingly overpowered.

But what got to me was my rank was tanking harder that a fat kid falling over. I ended up in bronze. And all i could think about was "How much more do I have to do? I'm really trying, I'm really giving it my 200%, I've got the stats to prove it!" and I was insulted. Absolutely INSULTED. That because of the matchmaker, I have been landed and placed in the bracket as the Trolls or the worst this community has to offer.

My friends all agreed that was some serious level bullshit. (because i'm usually the one to carry the shit out of them and their god awful picks... like kindred top... but they are all in gold.) They all admit i'm a far better player.

But I carried on, I got to silver 5 promo's.... Eventually... and I did that 7 times. 7

Each time I was 1 win off promotion. And each and every time the heavens opened up, the Riot matchmaker did everything in it's power to bring forth the scum from it's database and place them on my team making each game and no win scenario. Like literally 0 chance of winning.

So before I threw my computer mouse at my screen and table-flipped the shit out of everything that was close to me I just decided to quit and never return. All i could think was "I have just wasted 4 days playing this shit, there are other games I never play because i'm too busy wasting time on LOL" so I quit.

I'm only on the forums to watch Riot's burn, cause i'm not the only one frustrated with the game.

They basically gave all the power to the trolls.

wiimaster44 votes

So, i have been playing since 2008, and i used to just scree around in b5 picking Yasuo jungle. Recently, however I have started climbing, and am currently plat v. And i now have started to notice how horrible some aspects of the game is. My least favorite is how fucked up the meta is. I genuinly enjoyed ardent censor meta mor then the current one, at least then you knew wtf you have to play against. I even enjoyed the tank jungle meta last season. But this current meta, the dive bot meta and siege meta, is a pile of shit. Half the time im scared to clear my fucking jungle topside because, if ny bot gets ganked, we lose. Top lane and mid feel non existent, and the only viable champs are fucking nunu and warwick, unless u want to one trick nidalee. I have stopped climbing because of how much i hate the meta. I just do dumb shit in normals with my friends now, but it is still fun.

Chip104 votes

So true!

I started playing league of legends since mid s6 and I was a casual player I quited league of legends several time but lately and since pre season 8 specifically I started feeling that league of legends is different, I am not a pro analysis I am just silver but still I felt league of legends was starting to miss its feeling I really enjoyed league of legends s6 and early/mid s7 but after the rune update the game started to take a different direction. For example the tank meta; its the only playable meta in top right now. Riot is trying to keep its game up to date but actually they are ruining it

JAAAAAAAAAAAAYCE4 votes

Ive said a lot of this stuff on a few of my other accounts on the forums. Especially the top lane Dorans shield and Resolve sustain. Yet I got downvoted to hell for calling it out.

I was Diamond 3 in Season 7, and I main top lane Jayce. But as a top laner you cant do anything against Dorans Shield and Resolve. If the enemy takes dorans shield and you take Dorans blade or longsword, then you will get out damaged in trades by a lot. Now I moved from top lane to mid lane and its been a bit better, but solo carrying is still not there. Its all based on who has the least amount of morons on your team.

Shy Silverlight2 votes

Midlane is just another boring farm contest, playing vs ryze, anivia and orianna every single game is getting VERY old

ThunderSkelett3 votes

Riot needs top see this post

Shuriman Curator3 votes

Well said op

3411235456523 votes

The current state of mid lane is a perfect example of everything listed in your post. What used to be a lane full of aggression and skill expression is now turned into a mindless safe space for afk farming/waveclearing to protect the delusion ego of newbs who whined and cried from dieing to X champion. Rather than letting newbs whine and cry as they forever will, riot just transformed the entire laning phase into ultra passive- impossible to die type of scenario. But even if you do destroy the enemy laner, it hardly even matters. I remember when killing the enemy laner even 3 times would give you a 3-4 level lead and now you are lucky to even have a 1 level lead.

NocturnalSheild3 votes

So basically just another top laner that is angry they can’t 1v9 anymore in a 5v5 game.

Go play fort nite if all you want to do is be a solo Q hero. This is a team game.

revliledpembroke2 votes

I mean, you say that laning is NOW boring, but I always thought that it never stopped being boring.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

---Riot doesn't balance objectively based on what is actually overpowered and what isn't. They balance based off how players feel. Newbs cry and feel bad because they don't know how to counter something or can't be bothered to change their playstyle. So the game is changed to make them feel better about being bad at the game.

Bullshit. You know how many changes Riot makes all the time that people look at and then say, "Why are they nerfing/buffing X?"? This complaint is just a case of picking the examples you want and ignoring the rest.

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

-Riot doesn't balance objectively based on what is actually overpowered and what isn't. They balance based off how players feel. Newbs cry and feel bad because they don't know how to counter something or can't be bothered to change their playstyle. So the game is changed to make them feel better about being bad at the game.

Vayne Katarina Syndra come to mind when I read this.

Katarina Syndra for example. The average Bronze/Silver/Gold player won't buy MR items they'd rather just stack damage items and call a champion OP because they got 1 shot as a squishy with no defensive stats.

Riot needs to STOP listening to the boards and STOP listening to Reddit when it comes to champion and item balance.

You have your own internal data, use it for god's sake.

Riot's internal data is the most accurate way for them to determine a champion or item's performance.

Does Blizzard care about player generated data? (Class simulations etc) when they balance their game? Not really.

LordBrasca2 votes

I was surprised after seeing the video since i follow him too XD (even tho he's playing fortnite now but i don't really mind since he's good even at that game).

I agree with everything he said to be honest. League is simply not fun anymore, talked even with friends and we all have the same opinion at the moment: it's a coin toss, either you get lucky and you have competent people in your team that WANT to win, or you get one that is playing RANKED just for the lulz and it's gg.

It's not even fun when you win, one sided stomp where everyone is flaming the worst of their team, because that's what makes you win or lose a game.

Rarely you get games that you truly enjoy, the general direction of the game and SMURFS (both trolls and the ones that are playing on second accounts to try first time champs in ranked) are ruining pretty much everything.

Remember those times where you had to ward in order to take the timer of the drake manually? Remember those days where you didn't have all of the timers at hand by pressing tab? Because that's an example of what Neace was talking about when he said that they are costantly removing skill expression.

floppy10002 votes

Totally agree with most of his points.

Another reason why LoL seems to be struggling is the development team seems to have made a shift in goal or direction that their previous decisions and adjustments simply don't support anymore.

As an example:

While DotA has prided itself as always being adjusted on the highest skill brackets, LoL used to be developed for the masses. This is why in DotA, for the most part (there are of course specific incidences........) the community response to "nerf this or that because borken" threads are met with "lmao git gud skrub", while in LoL many threads are met with "actually yeah, let's gut this or that".

On its own, the decision to balance the game for 80-85% of players isn't a bad thing. This means that the game sits well for the majority of your player base. However, you can't suddenly decide to start balancing for the higher skill brackets (like the LCS, for example) because you'll leave residual mechanics that were built with the lower and mid brackets in mind that conflict with the goal of creating a balanced game for high brackets.

Of course, most recently, Riot have been developing for the spectator and the sponsors rather than for the players and pros (see Core-A Gaming's video on reducing the skill gap in Street Fighter, super relevant).

iamthegoatofwar2 votes

I miss old gangplank. He was good starter champ and fun to play. I have decent reflexes but I can't ever do the barrel combo right. I feel sad that he's basically gone for me now. As for fiora...Well I'm glad her old ult is gone. That shit was NOT fun to fight.

Wild Geese1 votes

See, look what happens! Every time I bring up bringing back SILENCE people want to downvote me. This is exactly why League is in the state it is! Nobody actually wants to listen than their favorite little nerf that made their mage characters lives easier was a bad thing.

AdderTude2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wild Geese,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3inQ28E3,comment-id=0039,timestamp=2018-04-15T16:02:20.667+0000)

See, look what happens! Every time I bring up bringing back SILENCE people want to downvote me. This is exactly why League is in the state it is! Nobody actually wants to listen than their favorite little nerf that made their mage characters lives easier was a bad thing.

That's because people want to win with the least amount of effort possible (lazy bunch of idiots). Just look at the explosive damage that Yasuo and Zoe are able to do, and it really doesn't take much to dish out chunks of damage with either of those champions.

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