Just wondering why Sion isn't currently played often in higher elos often (in either top or the jungle) despite having what seems to be a fair win rate. Is it a matter of him being weak or other picks just being too strong? Looking for some insight and wondering if he is worth playing (well worth playing to win, i'll always play him for fun.) Thanks for the info and insight guys :)
Angry Monster3 votesHealth stacking mechanic has been hit hard on him. The constant nerfs to cinder-hulk plus his own personal health nerfs have made early clears hard.
Sion's CC is very hard to use in a lane gank with his ult being easy to dodge at higher elos. Anyone with basic kite mechanics can dodge his Q charge and the charage in a team fight is actually lowering his overall impact.
Then add in the fact that % max health damage (true, phyiscal, or magic) is a major thing right now; which is really hard on a health tank.
Lastly Sion is not a juggernaut, but just a lowly tank. His damage is heavily gated by charge up systems (q & w) which makes it hard to be effective against smart players. A lot of what sion does ends up becoming zoning tools.
All these things make it hard to controal your destiny while playing sion. Smart people like to not have to count completely on their team mates; so they pick champs that are easier to carry(impact ) with
Why cant people sit down and think this out themselves; is my question.
Faded Lich3 votes[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vFU0tV5O,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-07T10:01:04.794+0000)
Health stacking mechanic has been hit hard on him. The constant nerfs to cinder-hulk plus his own personal health nerfs have made early clears hard.
Sion's CC is very hard to use in a lane gank with his ult being easy to dodge at higher elos. Anyone with basic kite mechanics can dodge his Q charge and the charage in a team fight is actually lowering his overall impact.
Then add in the fact that % max health damage (true, phyiscal, or magic) is a major thing right now; which is really hard on a health tank.
Lastly Sion is not a juggernaut, but just a lowly tank. His damage is heavily gated by charge up systems (q & w) which makes it hard to be effective against smart players. A lot of what sion does ends up becoming zoning tools.
All these things make it hard to controal your destiny while playing sion. Smart people like to not have to count completely on their team mates; so they pick champs that are easier to carry(impact ) with
Why cant people sit down and think this out themselves; is my question.
Because i am a newer player who wanted a simple answer ._. thanks for giving it but thanks for also being a jackass about it.
Angry Monster3 votesYou are not the first person to ask this type of question.
You wanted a simple answer, which is usually the wrong answer.
If you are so new why are you bothering with high elo concerns?
Just cause you are new is not an excuse for not thinking.
You want to emulate the high tier players but you do not have the basic understanding of the game to do this. Worry about your own game and stop worrying about the diamond plus and why they are doing X. If you have to ask why they are doing something as basic as champ select and meta you are not ready for those concerns.
ninjaIRL 6 votesHe/she learnt something right?
The OP asked what makes Sion bad at high level play/why he isn't picked more often. The thought processes and reasoning behind something like that should be approached in a similar manner to how the OP did it. Now he knows what strategies are typically used against X champ and what the champion is all about.
I don't think your philosophy of knowledge gating is good. At the end of the day, this is not some kind of academic course where you need to follow things step by step and is something that is fundamental in understanding our world. League of Legends is not. It is a video game which people can interact with in multiple levels, from casual to extremely competitive.
What is wrong with a person wishing to know what is what at more "professional" platforms of play? Nothing really.
Angry Monster2 votesI don't think your philosophy of knowledge gating is good. At the end of the day, this is not some kind of academic course where you need to follow things step by step and is something that is fundamental in understanding our world. League of Legends is not. It is a video game which people can interact with in multiple levels, from casual to extremely competitive.
I am not gating, i am saying if you can not understand it then maybe it does not apply to you. Anything below plat does not even need to worry about that shit; and i say that as a current g4. Who cares what sneaky, oddone, hai, daruis, ect is playing. They are doing things for reasons that do not apply to most players.
What is wrong with a person wishing to know what is what at more "professional" platforms of play? Nothing really.
actually you are wrong. Pro meta does not apply to lower meta. The inherit lack of skill for rotations and and understanding abuse cases matter in these cases. Hell most master and diamond players do not even play the same meta as pros, let alone how meta is different at each teir of play.
People that try to blindly copy X meta cause they saw it in LCS are usually a pain in the game. I saw zeonspartin split push top so i must also. These people forget that everyone is buy and warding and understand how to apply pressure on the map for a safe push.
The OP asked what makes Sion bad at high level play/why he isn't picked more often. The thought processes and reasoning behind something like that should be approached in a similar manner to how the OP did it.
Except the OP is counting on strangers to explain how things are working on a pro level. Luckly i have a logic and reason and great examples backing up my claims. The problem is that the OP has no way of knowing if i am correct. I may believe that i am correct ( most people on the boards do) but that is different than being correct.
The OP should of tried the wiki and checked the past patch notes and tried to figure out why X is happening. Odds are the OP has been playing through several patches (since it takes a while to level up an account) but can not put the information together.
The OP has basicly been hand feed now and does not really understand the problem or point. He knows that X conditions are happening but probably can not apply it other problems since he had to have it handed to him/her in the first place.
You think it does not hurt, i think it does. I am not against people going out to learn ( which this thread does not qualify as). This was give me answer, i do not want to learn, just the answer is enough. Learning would of been doing research in on game systems or trial by fire in the game. After experiencing failure and spending time trying to over come it; would of been learning to ask why X is happening.
ninjaIRL 3 votesI didn't say LCS or LCK when I said:
more "professional" platforms of play
I meant Gold+ or Plat+ levels of play. People do play her quite competitively and professionally in that they don't muck around and are more often than not aiming to learn the game thoroughly because that is what is needed in order to reach Diamond/Master Tiers.
I'm quite aware that the 5v5 teams strategies that real professional players, typically don't apply to the average ranked player.
What's to say that OP isn't finding information on multiple types of sources? He/she never specified if he/she was only looking through forums such as these. The OP might as well be finding guides for champions like Sion and we wouldn't know. Wishing to find a "simple answer" doesn't autonomously stop that player to learn more about why such things work the way they are.
You outlined quite well why Sion isn't picked. • Tank item overall nerfs. • The rise of % damages. (Fiora, Garen, Vayne) • The nerf to his Ws and health. • The majority of his abilities being charge based (Q, W, R). i.e. easy to negate/dodge.
You also picked up that Sion's primary impact is with his zoning and walling potential when tank shredders aren't present.
Now the OP is thinking, "Okay so that is the logic behind playing this champion. I have learnt stuff about what to do and not do as Sion, such as not pick him against heavy tank shredding team comps, keep in the mind the mobility of the enemy team..." You have now provided Faded Lich some information which he can (logically) apply to similar champions and general scenarios that he may think upon at a later date. If the OP is too stupid to dissect and critique information that has been given to him/her then it sucks to be them but if they are asking these questions then likely, no.
So what did this thread end up doing for the OP? He learned something about the game.
Angry Monster2 votesI meant Gold+ or Plat+ levels of play.
i am g4 and this is not a professional level. Higher skill, ect but that does not even come close to professional.
now for the rest of what you said. Learning is not understanding. Most people when told things do not learn why just that they should or should not do X.
Prefect example of this is that when you tell a kid something is hot. Does the kid understand that they will get hurt cause after warned and been explained to? The answer is no, every kid burns them selves once to understand.
Learning is not understanding. Just being told something is easy to forget and move on. If you want to remember something you experience it.
ninjaIRL 2 votesI know Gold is not professional, hence why I expressed it the way I did:
more "professional"
Meaning more mature, more learned, better. I didn't outright say professional.
Learning leads to understanding. Never did I equate learning to understanding. Experiencing something is one way of learning. Textual/communicative learning is another way of learning.
To understand atoms is typically taught through textual/communicative learning coupled with study. You can't particularly directly experience concepts such as atoms. You can only understand it through visual, oral and aural learning from words or from others.
An easy way to curb forgetfulness of people giving you information through oral/aural ways is to write them down, both of which is what we call learning.
Learning is: To gain or acquire knowledge of or skill in (something) by study, experience, or being taught. Some people learn easier through practical/physical activities whilst others can learn through texts and through voice.
Faded Lich3 votesNinjaIRL, I wish to give you a cookie for your clear and concise understanding of the situation. In fact, I did indeed do research other than the forums, including patch notes. But many of these patches that seemed to have impacted Sion the most happened before I started really dedicating time to the game, which in turns means I have no point of view of the actual impact the changes have made on him. In essence, I've lacked a point of reference.
And yes, I have learned something :) thank you.
Mecha MaIphite2 votesBecause gold 4 is super high elo amirite.
Teach me golld overlord.
Angry Monster3 voteslearn to read. I said that anyone below plat should not be worry about this. I said that including my self.
While i think i understand pro and higher metas does not mean i try to inflict them on my games.
Mecha MaIphite2 votesYou just explained why you are not plat+ yet.
I am not as good at plat people, but that doesn't stop me from trying to learn from them. I am not going to get better by playing silvers and golds over and over again.
Angry Monster1 votessays the s2. I play with plats in ranked and play solo q very infrequently.
here is a game where the rivan that my team won against a master teir rivan
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1933209027/38521493?tab=overview
I know my problems and i know how to win. now go away.
Faded Lich1 votes[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vFU0tV5O,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-07T10:31:43.932+0000)
You are not the first person to ask this type of question.
You wanted a simple answer, which is usually the wrong answer.
If you are so new why are you bothering with high elo concerns?
Just cause you are new is not an excuse for not thinking.
You want to emulate the high tier players but you do not have the basic understanding of the game to do this. Worry about your own game and stop worrying about the diamond plus and why they are doing X. If you have to ask why they are doing something as basic as champ select and meta you are not ready for those concerns.
A. Because I watch high elo games a lot, so I am interested in the scene. Is this a problem for you?
B. Actually it is, since I myself am not high elo and never have been I don't understand the process in which they think in the first place, making it impossible for me to magically understand these things without asking, which is why you're being a jackass right now. You're only seeing things from your own perspective.
C. No, I don't want to emulate higher elo players, I simply want to understand why they do things. It's more about time management than anything, if someone is so weak they're worthless to use then why would I want to waste my time learning them? However if it is someone like lets say, Xerath who is actually pretty damn good but isn't used in high elo simply due to what the current meta picks are, then they are extremely worth learning not only because they actually are strong but because I also enjoy them.
Seriously man, just answer the question and move on. You have a different perspective but you're not better or smarter than anyone here. You're just a dick, acting like I'm stupid for trying to learn something. You're kinda an example of whats wrong with this community and should in all honesty, feel bad about it. People like you are why newer players leave most of the time and I feel bad for anyone else who has had to deal with your negative attitude.
I wish you a good day.
Variks the Loyal3 votesLet it be known that Sion is extremely fun to play as. Not just his kit, but it's fun to listen to him brattle and scream in battle.
But, yes, his abilities are all very easily avoided. This helps lend to his playstyle as a tank, since you can control where people will go and force enemies to make bad decisions, but it takes a lot of practice and games and patience to do, and even more to do well.
warwiller2 votesSion used to be more than a berserker. All hail the true Sion!! The big green monster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fadedpf1 voteseverything except his ult has been nerfed. His tank items nerfed. Bruisers buffed like hell and hes hard to play to begin with. His entire kit has counterplay.
Zazusha1 votesThey nerfed the fuck out of him.
His lane dmg originally was on his E, they shifted all the power from it, to his Q. and they super nerfed his W, reducing the shield's strength at all levels, cept max, and added 1 second to it's recasting delay.
So in short. His damage is on an extremely telegraphed skill, His Q, and his W is worthless untill 4-5 lvls.
ninjaIRL 1 votesThat's incorrect.
His W becomes useful (its damage actually proccing) after rank 2 with something like a Giant's Belt to increase its shield amount. It gives him so much free damage, and is one way to chunk enemy tanks slowly.
Ionian1 votesToo many skillshots and low mobility. Not reliable enough basically.
Jungle Lux God1 votesIn general, Sion's abilities are very well telegraphed for his opponents. Between Q's charge time, W's 3 second delay, and R's ramp-up time and global sound effect, there's a lot that Sion's opponents can do to stop the majority of his damage. His E is the exception because of its linear skillshot nature, but everything else is super telegraphed.
At high level play (including higher elos), players can easily avoid those kinds of abilities because they are mechanically skilled enough to play against them and have the game knowledge to know how the ability works, meaning that Sion is weaker at high level play.
CasterGilgamesh1 votesbecause riot hates tanks and wants them dead so they nerfed every tank item they nerfed his shield beyond reason they nerfed his Q and its so fuckin easy to dodge his Ult it takes too much effort to do what he's supposed to do when champions like 
and 
and 
could just do that
Hard4Hamsters1 votesRecently he's simply been outclassed/countered by meta Top laners. He would probably make a resurgence now that Fizz and Maokai were both nerfed. But all of his core items were nerfed as well with the juggernaut rework patch. Speaking of which, I don't think that he can trade well with the likes of Darius. GP and Fiora are also really good into him right now so he has a lot of counters since his W was nerfed. He used to be able to out-trade a lot of toplaners by using his W when they went in for harass and then he would blow the shield right before it was popped by enemy damage, but the size of the shield was reduced along with the change to the minimum "hold" time before he could reactivate the W so now he can't win trades as well. Added on to his laning, he is just unreliable. Q has a really long charge before it knocks up and his Ult is easily avoidable at longer ranges.
He can still succeed of course in solo queue, but I think Pros have been looking for more reliable champions, particularly for toplane, and Sion doesn't really deliver in his reliability like someone like Maokai does. Even Nautilus looks like a better choice for pros with his lockdown ability, Sion of course has more damage, but Naut's abilities are a lot easier to hit and combo.
You mentioned higher ELO and I will say that most of this still applies there. I think another big issue is that pro play bleeds into solo queue a little too much and it affects what people perceive to be strong. Recently we have not seen pros playing on the current patch and I think this is good (if there weren't so many borderline broken champions right now) but we'll see what they pick up an how it affects the meta in solo queue. Right now, I just think he fell out of flavor and he would probably see some more play now that Maokai has been hit pretty hard, but with all the new OP champs rising up, I don't think he is going to see much play for awhile.