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Surrendering is pointless

Adanim··4 votes·753 views

A few notes before I start. Firstly, I am aware that THIS IS A GAME, THE EVENTS OF THE GAME ARE NOT RELEVANT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD, and PEOPLE THINK DIFFERENTLY FROM ME AND WILL DISAGREE. Secondly, if what I say offends anyone, know that it is not my goal, nor am I thinking less of you for anything that pertains to you.

TL;DR at the bottom

Moving on.

We all know this scenario: Bot lane gives first blood/double kill, mid is getting out roamed and out farmed, the jungler is counter jungling the crap out of yours, and the other top laner took TP, while yours isn't snowballing with ignite. You are getting destroyed all over the map. They have a better pick comp, a better skirmish comp, better 2v2. Your only saving grace is your superior teamfight and late game. However, the game hits 20:00, and after bickering and blaming and unhappy attitudes, the surrender vote kicks in. Immediately 1 more votes yes, and 1 votes no. Two more left. Then another yes. You are the last one. What do you choose?

A majority of this community, from what I have seen, heard, and read, will vote yes almost immediately. Why? Because of this mentality:

"End the game now so then I can play another one and win within 5 minutes instead of wasting another 20 in here."

This mentality, though accurate, IS NOT THE RIGHT ATTITUDE. Disagree? I can think of several reasons as to why you do.

  1. Cut your losses, move on to the next one

  2. You will probably lose anyways, why prolong it?

  3. Everyone on your team is pissed off and in a horrible mood. No point being around this anymore, better look for a fresh start and a new game.

  4. It's a game. Plain and simple.

The guy that votes no? That guy who causes you to wait at least another (what is it, 3/4/5) minutes for the next vote, making you suffer through it all for a longer time? That guy with the "Blind optimism" that says you can always win? Me.

That's right. Me.

The reason is because I am a firm believer in the principle that you should always finish what you start, no matter what, and you should always push to the finish believing that you will succeed. Always. Because if you are willing to quit, give up before it's 100% over, stop trying your hardest once it gets difficult, then what's the point in even trying? In life you will have a dream job. We all do, or will. You will work towards becoming eligible to apply for said dream job (and it may change as you progress and grow and experience new things). For some of us, we will get it, and be ever so happy. For others, we won't get it, and will be summarily disappointed. Should you stop trying? If life throws challenges at you that look like they are impossible to overcome, should you stop trying? Of course not.

Now granted, as I said above, this is League of Legends; a video game designed to entertain. It doesn't even compare to what looking for a job is like. But that doesn't matter, because the principles are the same. Will things sometimes not work out the way you hoped or planned? Of course. Will things change along the way and disrupt your pattern and comfortable lifestyle? Certainly. Should you ever give up because the going gets tough? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

But I digress. Back to League.

There is also a mentality that goes along with the "ff@20 if you are even close to behind" mindset. It's the "It's a video game. It doesn't matter" mentality. Going to tell me that it doesn't matter? That everything I'm saying is not worth anything because it's a video game and has no real value? If you are, then stop playing the game. Right now. Because if it doesn't matter, you won't play it, you won't invest time or money. If it doesn't matter, YOU WON'T BE PLAYING. Simple as that.

Though I may be getting ahead of myself here, my point is that surrendering shouldn't even be something that people consider. It's giving up mid-way. Why even queue up if you aren't ready to give 110% until the very end, taking every bit of punishment and pushing through it anyways? Because it's a video game, it doesn't matter? Again, if it didn't matter YOU WOULDN'T BE PLAYING THE GAME.

This is a virtual world. Online, the Internet, where we can be whomsoever we choose to be. Ironically, who we choose to be online are our real selves. There are no penalties for being an asshole, no drawbacks to being rude, nothing to be gained from being genuinely kind and gracious. It may be the Internet, and some may say "It's not real. It's not reality", but it is reality. What we put our time and focus into becomes our reality. Everything we do in this game reflects on us as people in the physical world. The principles we apply virtually (teamwork, communication, never giving up, supporting each other) will apply more so in the real, adult, business and social worlds/environments. Surrendering in League can be translated to not putting in a "Works Cited" page at the end of a science paper or a business report. You didn't finish the whole thing.

My friend and I have played many games, and I don't think he has even hit the yes button once unless the other 4 players did before him. He and I are the duo who will always spam NO every vote. Because we get how it plays into our lives. Both of us only recently figured this out, he only hit no because he was stubborn. I used to hit yes. I no longer do.

TL;DR Giving up is saying that it wasn't worth your time. Surrendering is giving up. Why play if you don't intend to finish, no matter the odds? If it doesn't matter because it's "just a game" then stop playing. If you put forth time and effort, then it matters to you. And if it matters to you, then you should never give up on it and fight to the end.

14 Comments

MTempty5 votes

Its simple really. The game is a foregone conclusion. Their win condition this game was getting their Tryndamere fed (just an example, rarely happens). Now, Trynd is 10/0 at 20 minutes and is pushing Ie. Hes practically impossible to lock down and even if you do, the WHOLE opposing team is simple unable to fight him. The game is done. They just won. If you don't see that, then you are wasting time. Time that I could be using in a game that the enemy team hasn't achieved win condition for. Keep your gungho attitude for the things that matter. Ever hear the phrase, pick your battles? That phrase applies here. I'm willing to spend 50 minutes more on a game thats 11-17 with 2 dragons to 1 than a game thats 15-0 with our inhibs exposed. Its not about your existential plight. Its about the reality that the enemy team will win. There is no longer a game. This is the situation that was their end goal. And listen, I don't have anything against what you do, especially since you've been rather pre-emptively respectful of my opinion. I'm just giving you my reality from my eyes. I'm not going to pressure you to surrender. You are 1/5th of this team and your opinion is valued. That being said, you are going to run into a lot of intolerance from people who I believe are justified in being upset with you for wasting their time. Feel free to follow up with me on this. I promise i won't bite.

Adanim1 votes

{quoted}

Its simple really. The game is a foregone conclusion. Their win condition this game was getting their Tryndamere fed (just an example, rarely happens). Now, Trynd is 10/0 at 20 minutes and is pushing Ie. Hes practically impossible to lock down and even if you do, the WHOLE opposing team is simple unable to fight him. The game is done. They just won. If you don't see that, then you are wasting time. Time that I could be using in a game that the enemy team hasn't achieved win condition for. Keep your gungho attitude for the things that matter. Ever hear the phrase, pick your battles? That phrase applies here. I'm willing to spend 50 minutes more on a game thats 11-17 with 2 dragons to 1 than a game thats 15-0 with our inhibs exposed. Its not about your existential plight. Its about the reality that the enemy team will win. There is no longer a game. This is the situation that was their end goal. And listen, I don't have anything against what you do, especially since you've been rather pre-emptively respectful of my opinion. I'm just giving you my reality from my eyes. I'm not going to pressure you to surrender. You are 1/5th of this team and your opinion is valued. That being said, you are going to run into a lot of intolerance from people who I believe are justified in being upset with you for wasting their time. Feel free to follow up with me on this. I promise i won't bite.

People will be upset at the situation, that I agree. And it would be really easy, possibly even more practical, to just surrender and move on. A fed Tryndamere that's 10/0 at 20 minutes is horrifying and really hard to stop, and yeah, they may have just won the game. But even so, I have seen people throw games with that large a lead (very rare, but it can still happen) and end up losing anyways. I was a victim of it myself, going 19/0 as Lux and losing with that exact K/D/A. It happens, and because of that, I won't ever hit the surrender button and I don't think anyone else should. I agree with the mantra of picking your battles, and there are some things that you should let go, especially if they are beyond your control. But I believe that once you queue up, pick your champion, and the game loads up, you have chosen to participate in a team-oriented activity. You have chosen to work with the other players to achieve victory. This is a battle that you have "picked", and you should play to the end without giving up no matter what. Granted, when you are in other situations and doing other activities, there will be multiple scenarios where you will need to let things go and pick your battles. I think that the difference here is mostly the fact that this is a team environment. This is a sport, and intellectual one as opposed to physical ones like football or soccer, but it is still a sport.

I really enjoy that you brought it up (Picking your battles). It adds to the discussion :)

Sightless661 votes

But I believe that once you queue up, pick your champion, and the game loads up, you have chosen to participate in a team-oriented activity.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that we have to decide to continue the game no matter what. I can't individually choose to leave the game (without punishment) because that breaks the commitment I have to my teammates to support them as long as the game continues, but we can decide as a team that we don't want the game to continue, but I can leave if we agree that leaving is what we all want to do. As a team, we decide this isn't a battle we want to fight. As a team, we decide that this isn't worth our time to continue. We commit to being a team. We don't commit to fighting a battle against any odds.

But even so, I have seen people throw games with that large a lead (very rare, but it can still happen) and end up losing anyways. I was a victim of it myself, going 19/0 as Lux and losing with that exact K/D/A. It happens, and because of that, I won't ever hit the surrender button and I don't think anyone else should.

I understand your point here, but I don't agree with it. The thing is, I don't really care about those rare wins. They aren't big moments for me, I don't really remember many of them, and I don't value them. When I compare them to all the number of inevitable losses that I have to sit through by not surrendering, it's pretty clear to me that I'll enjoy myself more not struggling over games that I'm not going to win unless the enemies spontaneously lose their minds. Given that enjoying myself is the main goal of this game for me, it's pretty clear that struggling for any victory I can possibly get isn't the best way to achieve my goal.

A big part of it is that I don't really enjoy winning a game that the other team had locked up and decided to throw by playing silly. If I win because the extremely fed enemy team decides they want to towerdive 10 times in a row just because they might be able to, even though they would have a guaranteed win if they didn't, I'm not really feeling anything special about winning that game. It's not particularly interesting to win a game that someone else decided to let you win. I want at least some of the reason we won to be due to our actions, not just the enemy's actions.

That's important, because most games that you comeback from really far behind on are games where the enemies start playing very poorly and let you back in. They relax, take it easy, and give up their lead even though they could win if they kept playing the way they did 10 minutes ago. There are rare games where your team pulls it together and begins playing very well, but not only are those the minority, but they also pretty much never happen in games where everyone wants to surrender anyways.

I really don't care that much if I beat that 19/0 Lux. It's not going to be much more enjoyable for me than winning against some normal Lux. It's not worth the time playing out the number of games where that 19/0 Lux will just snowball a victory. I'd much rather move on to a more equal matchup.

I get it if you don't want to surrender. You really value those wins and you enjoy the feeling of trying hard to fight a battle even if you aren't going to win it. That's perfectly fine, but I don't. I'll fight important and real battles out to the end, but I'm not going to do it just for the sake of it. It might be different if I knew the players involved or had some kind of rapport with someone, but without something like that, I'm not going to have as much fun sticking with games.

MTempty1 votes

{quoted}

People will be upset at the situation, that I agree. And it would be really easy, possibly even more practical, to just surrender and move on. A fed Tryndamere that's 10/0 at 20 minutes is horrifying and really hard to stop, and yeah, they may have just won the game. But even so, I have seen people throw games with that large a lead (very rare, but it can still happen) and end up losing anyways. I was a victim of it myself, going 19/0 as Lux and losing with that exact K/D/A. It happens, and because of that, I won't ever hit the surrender button and I don't think anyone else should. I agree with the mantra of picking your battles, and there are some things that you should let go, especially if they are beyond your control. But I believe that once you queue up, pick your champion, and the game loads up, you have chosen to participate in a team-oriented activity. You have chosen to work with the other players to achieve victory. This is a battle that you have "picked", and you should play to the end without giving up no matter what. Granted, when you are in other situations and doing other activities, there will be multiple scenarios where you will need to let things go and pick your battles. I think that the difference here is mostly the fact that this is a team environment. This is a sport, and intellectual one as opposed to physical ones like football or soccer, but it is still a sport.

I really enjoy that you brought it up (Picking your battles). It adds to the discussion :)

I see your perspective. If I was playing basketball with my friends, i'd play it out even though the score is 20-5 . I can appreciate your mentality. That being said, in league, tempers run high and games can become incredibly frustrating when even the most well executed last-ditch effort ends in failure. Furthermore, morale is something to be considered. I can play 3 or 4 30 minute games that closed out rather solidly rather than play 1 or 2 50 minute games that dragged on for what i viewed to be as a game that was won by the enemy team. I don't really view queuing up as this huge commitment. There are games that matter more than others to me, but even when i'm in series, I will still surrender games i know to be lost. Granted, its a tougher sell when theres something on the line for most people, but a loss is a loss. The fact that I have nothing to lose and everything to win doesn't change the fact that I'm playing a frustrating match. Its kind of like in CS:Go... if your team only has 1 remaining to 3 and they have bomb plant, just grab an awp and get the hell out of there. I know that next game, i'll be less frustrated and thus, its giving myself a clean slate rather than be burnt out from the previous game.

Meep Man2 votes

Pointless? No. Done too much? Yes.

Sachabot2 votes

It's because it is a game that I surrender. Rarely at 20, but I do surrender. Why? Because I am working that dream job, which leaves me with not a whole lot of time. I don't want to spend my precious time struggling and going further on tilt. I have other things to do, other challenges to overcome. I'm not gonna bust my ass and frustrate myself so you can say "Hey, at least we tried."

But, that's the difference in our opinions. League, while occasionally fun, isn't the mainstay of my free time, or even of the time I allot to gaming. It's not important enough to me. I do try my best when I play, but I understand when I'm completely outmatched.

Android Cowboy2 votes

You had me at "blind optimism". I hate the guts of 'nevar surrenderr" players. Sometimes, you should just stop, as in life. You sound like a considerate person, so consider the other players' plights. I'm not talking about ff@20 because the other team got 1st blood, you know EXACTLY what kind of match you should surrender in, but apparently choose not to. If you want to be don quixote, don't do it in ranked, please. Gnar

Adanim1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Android Cowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v8EgTgis,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-06-20T17:41:12.907+0000)

You had me at "blind optimism". I hate the guts of 'nevar surrenderr" players. Sometimes, you should just stop, as in life. You sound like a considerate person, so consider the other players' plights. I'm not talking about ff@20 because the other team got 1st blood, you know EXACTLY what kind of match you should surrender in, but apparently choose not to. If you want to be don quixote, don't do it in ranked, please. Gnar

Being a considerate person is something that I value as mush as I value "never give up". However, I won't sacrifice my morals just to appease 4 other players, because that would be a betrayal of myself.

Android Cowboy2 votes

Blind optimism isn't a moral, it's direct denial of evidence.... You got it wrong, friend. You are Arrogantly Ignorant, and for that, you have my antipathy. Gnar

ShuffledPancake1 votes

1 hour match, says matches may go for that time.. goes for longer then anyone thought. You are losing hard , not bcz You are a late game champ, Because you cant finish nor can the enemy, (Like if you afk in a match and the minions tend to pick who will win but with a twist./.. there are no minions = no end). Do you surrender then? Also why do pro players surrender? (Pro-high elo not just pro)

Adanim1 votes

{quoted}

1 hour match, says matches may go for that time.. goes for longer then anyone thought. You are losing hard , not bcz You are a late game champ, Because you cant finish nor can the enemy, (Like if you afk in a match and the minions tend to pick who will win but with a twist./.. there are no minions = no end). Do you surrender then? Also why do pro players surrender? (Pro-high elo not just pro)

In a game like this one, it will eventually end. The algorithms of growth in the health pools of the minions would make that happen, however I doubt that a game could last that long if all 10 players were trying to win it.

On the point of the pro players surrendering, I am unsure of that. From what I have seen from the matches I have watched (I don't watch the LCS or OGN or any of that because I really just don't care), the pros don't surrender often, and when they do, they will lose in about 1-2 minutes later. I still stand by my point. If you aren't willing to stay and fight until the end, then I don't see a point in even queuing up. It just (to me) defeats the purpose of trying in the first place.

ShuffledPancake1 votes

yeah a few teams in lcs surrender.. but ok ty

Adanim1 votes

The thing is though, I don't have blind optimism. People call it that because they themselves refuse to think that they can win because the odds are stacked up against them, and anyone who thinks or sees the same situation differently pisses them off even more. I used the term in quotations because there really isn't much of a thing. I have come back from the worst of games to win, and lost games that "should have been ours", so I will always be under the impression that I can win. I am not ignorant, I am not arrogant, and accusing me of such things blatantly doesn't help you make your point or help your case in any way.

Android Cowboy1 votes

I consider 'nevar surrenderr' players to be the terrorists of LoL. 3 people held hostage by 1 or 2 scumbags tryhards dissenters. I hate them for that, and I hate that there's not a better surrender mechanic... but what can you do? Gnar

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