How to get rid of the problem where ADCs are buying items not intended for them

Wind Whistler·Mar 15, 2017·47 votes·2,543 views

Just fucking disable them for ranged champions, like Titanic and Ravenous Hydra. Why don't they just do this?

65 Comments

Yara0Mar 15, 201725 votes

cause then the boards and reddit would go on a rampage about build creativity. Of couse no one seems to care if the support has to build the same 3 items every game

Very Hard EngageMar 15, 20171 votes

Shaco item 1402

MasterYi item 3089

any mage here item 3174

Ezreal Q spell blade aoe proc thingy that we've all forgotten about already.

Heimerdinger item 3060

Shyvana item 1419

shall i continue? riot always makes changes to champs/items for the sake of removing "unfun things" strictly because it worked better than what they intend for the champion and how it works. if it were truly busted then it would be toned down, not removed.

id like to see tank shyvana make a come back where shes aoe magic damage in the center of a fight saying "hey focus me" without being an auto attack beast.

just waiting on Singed + item 2033 at this point. we all know its going to happen, but riots letting singed mains have their fun because its singed, no1 takes him seriously.

bbQsauçeMar 15, 20177 votes

[deleted]

Very Hard EngageMar 15, 20172 votes

its "unintentional"

not that im not ok with it, but that buying 3 of 1 item was always frowned on in the past, look at bloodthirster, that had its stackable passive removed.

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 20178 votes

That is actually not a problem with corrupting pot, but with that item: item 1082

SkiasMar 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

cause then the boards and reddit would go on a rampage about build creativity. Of couse no one seems to care if the support has to build the same 3 items every game

Build Creativity hasn't been fostered in two seasons. You have a set build for most champs with very little variation. I'd opt for a few class specific items for some better balance. Because ADCs using BC and LW together is some bullshit.

Yosuke ApperuMar 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

cause then the boards and reddit would go on a rampage about build creativity. Of couse no one seems to care if the support has to build the same 3 items every game

I pray for a support rework where they can have build diversity x.x

DJMason88Mar 15, 20178 votes

Because Hydra and Runaans are disabled for a reason. The way they work limit them to being for ranged or melee.

Irelia BotMar 15, 20176 votes

Anyone who played before any hydra was around knows this is bullshit.

Hinagiku33Mar 15, 201718 votes

Just to clarify, the original Tiamat could be used on both Melee and Ranged champions with the same AoE splash passive it has now.

...and because it was bonkers on Ranged champions it was kept weak as shit. It was so bad people would literally report you for building it for trolling (unless it was Tiamat Tuesday). The only reason Tiamat is allowed to be anything but a troll buy is because Riot decided to limit it to Melee champs because Ranged champs just abuse it way too hard.

It's got nothing to do with the passive "not working" on ranged auto-attacks. It works fine and did for several seasons. It was just obnoxious and unbalance-able. So there is no reason Riot can't put Melee/Ranged tags on other items that are bought and abused by champs the items weren't intended for.

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 20172 votes

Such a change would feel pretty onesided and unfair, though.

We got some items for melee only: item 3074 item 3748 And some items being ranged only: item 3085 item 3094

But with these changes the people demand... What do you mean, how many items would end up melee only and how many being ranged only? I bet that there will be a ton of more melee only items than ranged only. And that just doesn't feel fair. It means that a melee champ has by nature the choice of way more items than a ranged champion.

Besides that: Intoducing such a system is limiting Riots ability to create new champions. Imagine if every tank item in this game would have been melee only. Gnar in that state, this little fella wouldn't exist in this game.

So I am against the split of melee and ranged only....

TheMinezMar 15, 20172 votes

item 3094 isn't ranged only...

Go into practice tool and build a item 3094 on Ekko , charge it up, then use your E dash from out of range.

It extends blink distance and applies energized damage as normal...

Pretty sure Kayle and Gnar can still buy item 3074 item 3748 because I know they can both get and use item 3085 ...

VoidStaresBackMar 15, 20172 votes

They can but it won't work unless they're fighting in their melee forms, and in Kayle's case that's an absolutely terrible decision.

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 20171 votes

~~The effect of is actually ranged only.~~ ~~It just seems that Ekkos E empowered AA and Rengars AA in bushes are coded as ranged AA.~~ ~~It's nota simple dash because it shares traits of AAs like not being able to miss. If the~~ ~~animation starts, you will always hit.~~ EDIT: According to new information given to me, that is not true.

While Gnar and Kayle can buy item 3085 item 3074 item 3748 , they can't utilise all these items at the same time.

If Kayle uses her E, she gets the benefit from Ruunans, but loses the effect of the Hydras. Because her attacks are coded as ranged attacks then. If she doesn't use the E, she gets the benefit from Hydra, but not from Ruunans.

If Gnar is in his miniform, he gets the effect of Ruunans, but no Hydra. If he is in megaform, he gets the Hydra, but not Ruunans.

These items are exclusive for ranged and melee auto attacks. But it is true that some skills can change the type of your AAs for some time. You mentioned the examples, Ekko, Gnar, Kayle and I added Rengar.

Another unique interaction: Gangplank Q, while ranged, triggers the effects of melee items (like Hydra), but not the effects of ranged items like Ruunans. It is ranged, but still coded as melee.

TheMinezMar 15, 20172 votes

I read somewhere that the range bonus from Rapidfire works with a percent of your auto range capping at a certain amount. May be wrong because I am not at my own computer to check easily.

5000000000000000Mar 15, 20171 votes

It was something like 30% iirc. But for melees with 125/175 range, that 30% is only like 30~60.

Chembaron YamadaMar 16, 20171 votes

I see, misunderstood it there it seems.

Well, with that new information: There already are 2 melee only items and just 1 ranged only item. And people suggest to make that gap even wider by denying ranged champions a large pool of items while I bet that they would vote for almost no item to be limited to ranged....

DJMason88Mar 16, 20171 votes

I meant that they are limited because on ranged champions the passive would be obnoxious.

AfterTheFallMar 15, 20178 votes

they've explained this before. if they were to do that, it would be like opening pandora's box. where would it end? you cant have 75 items in the game locked for only specific classes to use. builds would become so linear that there would be very little choice in what to build. there would just be a couple static builds for every class. not fun

ZT XperimentorMar 15, 20175 votes

It should end with some common sense. Such as when people predicted the lethality items being abusable on marksmen, and then proven to be so in PBE. At which point they should've made edge of night melee only.

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 201711 votes

Edge of the night is intended to be bought by assassins.

Quinn She is a ranged AD assassin. So why do you want to prevent her to buy an item clearly intended for her subclass?

( Twitch is ranged AD assassin, too. But he doesn't build lethality, so there was no sense to bring him up but I just want to be correct here)

ZT XperimentorMar 15, 20171 votes

She was a mistake from the beginning, twitch was balanced before riot split up invisibility.

SkiasMar 15, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Edge of the night is intended to be bought by assassins.

She is a ranged AD assassin. So why do you want to prevent her to buy an item clearly intended for her subclass?

( is ranged AD assassin, too. But he doesn't build lethality, so there was no sense to bring him up but I just want to be correct here)

Ranged AD assassin with a team wide shred and siege power... lol ok. Twitch isn't an assassin, he's a hypercarry.

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 20171 votes

Team wide shred? What are you talking about here if I may ask? She has no shred built into her kit. And her sieging power compared to other marksmen or artillery mages is extremely small. For a ranged champion, her range is really short.

And Twitch is considered to be a marksman and assassin hybrid by Riot themselves. See yourself. He is listed under marksman, but with (hybrid assassin) added to him.

SkiasMar 15, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Team wide shred? What are you talking about here if I may ask? She has no shred built into her kit. And her sieging power compared to other marksmen or artillery mages is extremely small. For a ranged champion, her range is really short.

And Twitch is considered to be a marksman and assassin hybrid by Riot themselves. See yourself. He is listed under marksman, but with (hybrid assassin) added to him.

Black Cleaver applies on her ult and Black Cleaver shreds apply for the entire team.

Chembaron YamadaMar 16, 20171 votes

That argument is strange.

That is the case for every champion with AoE AD damage. Not really special for Quinn.
Black Cleaver is not even a popular item on Quinn. 1,48% of Quinn players are buying that item, that really isn't much. Source.
If you keep point 1 in mind, there are many assassins able to apply AoE armor shred with Black Cleaer. some examples are:

SkiasMar 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That argument is strange.

That is the case for every champion with AoE AD damage. Not really special for Quinn.

Black Cleaver is not even a popular item on Quinn. 1,48% of Quinn players are buying that item, that really isn't much. Source.

If you keep point 1 in mind, there are many assassins able to apply AoE armor shred with Black Cleaer. some examples are:

Those champions don't need to buy it, their teammates will. You do know the shred applies for everyone right? That's the problem. They will enjoy 30% total armor reduction without spending a single coin.

Chembaron YamadaMar 16, 20171 votes

Yes, but it is absolute no argument for Quinn. ô.o Like I said, Black Cleaver is absolutely rare for Quinn to buy. Almost no one buys that item on her.

And you bring that up as an argument for Quinn not being an assassin. Meanwhile Kha'Zix (who is an assassin) is buying it way more often (44%) and has that team wide armor shred. So what kind of argument is that?

SkiasMar 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but it is absolute no argument for Quinn. ô.o Like I said, Black Cleaver is absolutely rare for Quinn to buy. Almost no one buys that item on her.

And you bring that up as an argument for Quinn not being an assassin. Meanwhile Kha'Zix (who is an assassin) is buying it way more often (44%) and has that team wide armor shred. So what kind of argument is that?

She doesn't need to buy it to benefit. She will buy lethality or LW, which stacks with it. There is so much shred in the game, AD damage in general is far higher than it should be. She will get nerfed because of items.

Chembaron YamadaMar 16, 20171 votes

Yes, she will. And what does that have to do with her being an assassin (which was the whole point of this discussion here)?

SkiasMar 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes, she will. And what does that have to do with her being an assassin (which was the whole point of this discussion here)?

Because she wouldn't instantly explode anyone if they actually had some armor? this isn't difficult.

IcyPepperMar 15, 20172 votes

there would just be a couple static builds for every class.

~~So basically support?~~

xNejiixMar 15, 20174 votes

That's a slipery slope fallacy though. Nevermind the fact they already started it with Runaans & the hydras - so according to your logic, the box is already open - there's no reason why Riot should suddenly go apeshit and lock down every item path. I mean, obviously Riot intended for carries to never build Hydra under any circumstances - so they simply prevented them from doing so. Seemed to work fine, if you ask me, and I don't see why it shouldn't for anything else. If an item for a certain class is used by another class that's not supposed to build it, restricting them is much more reasonable than nerfing the item, which also hurts the champions it was intended for. Granted, the distinction between classes isn't always the clearest, but Range/melee is an easy one.

AptestMar 15, 20174 votes

nobody said anything when bruisers and assassins and toplane melees were abusing items meant for ADCs.

namely the ADC item item 3153

Irelia BotMar 15, 201722 votes

Because it was not intended for only marksmen.

WiegrafOfValorMar 15, 201714 votes

item 3153 was intended for melee bruisers that don't have much mobility, but when it was created Riot didn't had the *melee only mechanic.

item 3153 Was made for this champions: MasterYi Udyr XinZhao Aatrox Tryndamere Renekton Olaf

It gives them slow, MS drain, sustain and AS. Everything they need to keep up with squishy targets and diminish kiting, ADC are the one abusing it to make kiting overbearing.

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 201711 votes

ADC are the one abusing it to make kiting overbearing

How can ADC abuse the item if Riot themselves clearly stated that this item is meant to be bought by marksman and even intended as core item for some of them?

HyperiönMar 15, 20174 votes

Only like 2 marksman actually build it. maybe 3.

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 20175 votes

Doesn't change the fact that Riot has the intention of this item to be a marksman item. ô.o So saying that marksmen are abusing it is simply wrong. They can't "abuse" an item that clearly is meant for them.

Kalista Kindred Twitch Tristana And I can call at least these 4 marksmen building it. Maybe there are more.

HyperiönMar 15, 20171 votes

Well I am not saying it is specific for a class. Although they did just change it for Aatrox.

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 20172 votes

I do neither say it is specific for a class, I just say it is intended for marksmen, too. Which basically means: it clearly is not a case of abuse.

statelesskillerMar 15, 20171 votes

Ezreal Lucian are building it right now as well

WiegrafOfValorMar 15, 20171 votes

It became a stable on ADC, this is not the same as being made for ADC. You're new here so I won't even try to argue, but at the time BoRK was first introduce ADC were most than please to build item 3006 item 3031 item 3072 item 3046 item 3035 item 3026 , not a single one of them use BoRK until Vayne popularize after and got nerfed, plus AD casters were building item 3078 + for the crit burst.

item 3153 was made for Bruisers.

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 20172 votes

I never said that item was created as a marksmen item. You misunderstood me here.

I said it is intended as one by Riot themselves, now. They even made balancing decisions around that. Intentions can change with time, you know?

AptestMar 15, 20173 votes

{quoted}

was intended for melee bruisers that don't have much mobility, but when it was created Riot didn't had the *melee only mechanic.

Was made for this champions:

It gives them slow, MS drain, sustain and AS. Everything they need to keep up with squishy targets and diminish kiting, ADC are the one abusing it to make kiting overbearing.

no it's the other way around. it was designed for ADCs to keep up with health stacking tanky bruisers in the mid game, and the active was for ADCs to keep up with the gap closing and speedboosts these bruisers have.

WiegrafOfValorMar 15, 20171 votes

item 3153 was made for Bruisers, look it up before you vomit your delusions here on the forums.

AirKingNeoMar 15, 20171 votes

Doesn't matter what YOU THINK it was made more. Fact is, it's also ADC's item as much as everyone else's.

AhristocatsMar 15, 20174 votes

ADCS don't need bork to kill bruisers and tanks

bruisers need it to be relevant aka aatrox

Chembaron YamadaMar 15, 20173 votes

An item can be intended for more than just one champion class. Yes, it is helpful for melees since you can't be kited as easily and you get lifesteal and additional damage.

But it is useful (and intended that way) for marksmen, too. It gives AS for their damage, on hit damage to shred tanks and the stolen MS is great for kiting. And kiting is an intended defensive strategy for marksmen.

That item is useful for bruisers just as it is useful for marksmen, hence it doesn't have the melee only tag.

AirKingNeoMar 15, 20171 votes

No but ADCs need BoRK to do something at 1-2 items if they can't build lethality.