https://youtu.be/SHynMWUlAYs?t=18m01s
Finally, here's a well known D3 player, saying what many much lower elo players have said for a loong time:
"We have 4 people doing well, but 1 troll. so we lose. This shows why lol ranked system is fkd up. because if you lose a coin flip ... one person can lose you a game. but one player cant win you a game. ... it's a coin flip nowadays. ... [ranked should be performance based]
"
archerno117 votesAnd you can see that Naut isnt really trolling. Just getting owned hard by Fiora. This guy shows whats real problem in league. People who accuse those that do bad of trolling. He says that one player cant win you a game, yet Fiora is proving that one player can win a game.
Quil Evrything2 votesno that isnt "the real problem".
And amusingly, fiora did NOT win enemy team the game: late game kogmaw, and a clutch baron won it for the ahri. But the sentiment still is there; ranked system is fk'd. It's only fair to grade people as a team, when you actually enter the game as a team. But you dont; solo Q is a bunch of SOLO players
archerno13 votes[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v22hexhU,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-06-05T20:56:49.087+0000)
no that isnt "the real problem".
And amusingly, fiora did NOT win enemy team the game: late game kogmaw, and a clutch baron won it for the ahri. But the sentiment still is there; ranked system is fk'd. It's only fair to grade people as a team, when you actually enter the game as a team. But you dont; solo Q is a bunch of SOLO players
Bunch of SOLO players in a team game. Noone is forced to play it if they dont want to.
Ambient Snow3 votesThe issue with solo Queue is that it's not a actual " SOLO" queue. it allows duo queues, which can bring an advantage to that team or a handicap if they are a duo set of trolls
that's the issue with ranked
you can have 2 bronze 5 members duo queueing this would then put them vs stronger teams thus putting them in bronze 2-1 teams but that is now 2 members who are going to handicap your team because both of them are lower ranks.
Also there is no way to limit Smurfs.
it sucks losing a false loss because a Diamond 1 decides to get on his smurf bronze 3 account then flat out Steam roll a team.
this happens more often because its free to make an account and lvl it it then causes a inflated ranking system with no current actual ranking that's accurate
but that's solo queue team queue is just as bad because. you're still ranked based off your solo queue
riot needs to make 2 new ranking systems if they want to solve this. They need a actual SOLO queue
they need a flex queue like they have for duo triple
and then Add a TEAM QUEUE where you actually recruit and establish a team "limit the amount of memebers you can have per team so you can't have free carry's and a limit of needed games to get team rewards"
this will make it so the actual team Is ranked among other teams
kinda shocked they haven't done either of these queues yet in this game.
nice table9 votesno naut wasn't just doing bad, a diamond top laner is capable of not getting anal fisted that hard if they try he was just passively inting.
archerno14 votes[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v22hexhU,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-06-05T22:10:40.003+0000)
no naut wasn't just doing bad, a diamond top laner is capable of not getting anal fisted that hard if they try he was just passively inting.
Even challenger players get anal fisted that hard
nice table5 votesi mean sure challenger players that are getting dove 24/7 by fiora + elise while playing gp get fisted this hard, not really the same thing as this naut though.
Disembark1 votesLol. Its actually more likely you lose that hard in diamond+ than in lower elo. Like in lower elo the fiora wouldn't know how to fully abuse/zone naut to make him completely worthless, levels behind, and able to dive him straight up. Unless naut's jungle babysat him he couldn't even look at caster creeps and maybe get melee creeps under tower if he's lucky.
AKA there is no point in the game where the naut can even look at the Fiora and there will come a point where she will straight up dive him.
nice table1 votesthe fiora rushed tiamat and at no point did she actually try to zone him, also at what point will a fiora be able to solo dive a naut? 20min? past that?
5050BS13 votesI cant gain as a solo player.
+14 LP +14 LP +14 LP -21 LP < afk/troller -22 LP < afk/troller
See the problem
Even if I get 3/5s good games these trolls keep me down.
Jorencice9 votesIf your losing more than you gain then the matchmaking system thinks you have reached your peaked rank as a player.
You have to keep playing till you show it that it's wrong or right.
Avios19 votesI would if it didn't give me afk/trolls/flamers/tilters/anything else on this earth/etc.
Tobias Brackner2 votesReport them and move on.
Faustavian1 votesIndeed, just think of it as cleansing the low elo of trolls, not being stuck there with them.
RogueWill6 votesMy win/loss is the opposite. +25 +27 -14 -16
I'm going up
Vallalan2 votesyour mmr must be pretty bad to have those kinds of gains and losses or you are very high elo where thats when the system gets most fucked.
ChaoticPinecone3 votesWhats funny is that looking at your match history, it goes: Win-Win-Win, you go 6/11, then 6/9. Win-win-win, you go 2/8. Win-Win, you go 2/9, 1/11.
I think I found the person holding you down in your games.
Marshbouy7 votesThis is why i don't waste my time on ranked. Climbing in the short term is decided by coin flips, but ranked is still skill based. In the long term if you play hundreds of ranked games then you can start to slowly climb, but why waste my time doing that when I could have way more fun in normals?
Cavesloth5 votesThis, all of this. Riot sees ranked as be all end all. But for those of us that just want to get our ranked shit done so we can get back to normals, ranked is waaaaaaay to much of timesink, and it is designed to be a HUGE timesink. For those of use that like normals more, its a completely counter-intuitive horrible design.
KoKoboto1 votesYeah especially since the dynamic Q thing where everyone was boosted. They did the hard MMR reset but I just don't give a damn about ranked. Just let me get gold off of placements so I can get the victorious skin :T
Even now I don't think the game can be taken too seriously. The game is too heavily defined by early game and has lost a lot of strategy and team play in mid-game and late-game.
Lock On6 votesI gain ~ 22 LP and lose 14 but the logic that I should play out tens or hundreds of ranked games or play 2 tiers above my current elo to climb a single division is fucking ludicrous.
nice table5 votesperformance is way too hard to measure and take into account for this to ever actually happen.
Quil Evrything1 votesand yet, they somehow ALREADY have a system of measuring individual performance that has been implemented for an entire reason, called "mastery". It could use some improving, sure. but I sure as hell would rather gain/lose LP based on my mastery point game evaluation score, than the current crap.
Do recall, that while you technically get a "grade", of D,C,B,A,S.... that is only the coarse scale measure. there are actual numbers that get displayed, too.
Maybe they could start a separate queue, the "mastery performance ranking queue" or something, and see how that goes for a season.
Take the mastery points per game (largest I've seen is around 1200), , then subtract 600 and divide by 30. so, 1200pt score would give you +20 LP. 900pts, would give you +10LP. 300pts, would give you -10 LP, and so on.
Or maybe make it a bit harsher, and subtract.. 800, then divide by 40? Since only a pure troll should ever be getting numbers lower than 500pts/game
nice table4 votesid rather kill my self than play on a ladder where ranking is based on mastery score where all the bronze kda and afk farm players are challenjour tbh
Quil Evrything2 votescool. so dont play on it
zaire902 votesSo what you'll have is games where 10 members are just farming for 300 farm and then fighting the one teamfight to push it down mid since cs gives you the highest grades. I've played fiora games where I've gone like 2/3/5 with 300 cs and got a s off of that. And kat games where I've gone 20/2/4 and gotten an A+ because I didn't have time to farm but I was going for objectives (it was a 4v5 by the way and we managed to win it too) so grading based off of the mastery you've gotten isn't fair because it's too easily abuseable.
And correct me if I'm wrong I don't know any game that has a competitive mode that rewards you for losing. Even if you had a team mate that did bad you guys probably would've noticed this by the 1st blood and you have 3 options. You can leave that lane out to dry which should be done if its a tank, someone who's good for their engage, just being a meat shield or has a lategame you guys can fall back on. Or you can help that member out to help him get ahead and make his laner useless. Or you guys can give up and complain about the broken system.
Also everyone throws out trolling far to often when sometimes a member is just getting outplayed or is just bad. Normally you can tell when a person is trolling because they're running down mid as soon as they spawn or just hopping in someones else's lane or shit like that
Durzaka1 votesAnd the mastery system is fucking shit.
Ive had games as a jungler where ive been all over the map, had very high kill participation, gotten every dragon, and a baron, but because my farm was good, I only got an A-.
Fuck that shitty system.
Quil Evrything1 votesdude it's not like it was WAY off. 'A' and 'S' are close. So it just needs tweaking for junglers. File a bug report.
Durzaka1 votesJunglers, supports, and tanks in general dont get accurate mastery scores very often.
The system has basically no value on getting drakes or heralds it seems. And its difficult or impossible to actually calculate the value of a tank disrupting the enemy and saving your ADC. Or properly peeling and disengaging instead of committing to a fight.
Sir Yamazuki4 votesAnyone that plays any team based game without some inflated self importance would know that winning games has random influence. Those who say otherwise are the ones who convinced themselves they won by "1v9", they're the sole reason why they win when they do. This mentality is also bad though as some people who tilt, and drag the team down, will tilt because they aren't "carrying". I've lost count of how many Diamond players will nearly throw a winning match just because they personally didn't do well.
coley bear3 votesI think the whole fact that League is a team game makes it impossible to create a fair ranked system based on a solo queue. If you make it so an individual player can win a game it makes the trolling problem even worse because that individual player isn't going to be you on the bad team, it will be their player laning against your troll. Ranked does have problems, but there's no easy way to distinguish trolls from bad players and smurfs from new players. Riot has simply opted to prefer a system where most of the time a player who doesn't belong in their tier will rise out of it. Of course there is luck involved, but League isn't an individual game, so to rank based on individual prowess is almost ridiculous to even attempt.
Tobias Brackner3 votesThere are so few trolls that losing ranking because of constant trolling is a statistical anomaly that will go from almost non-existent at low levels to functionally non-existent at high levels. Report them and play more.
deadlychuck2 votesRiot: But it's a team game. You're suppose to be thrive or die as a team, as a whole.
Players: But it's solo queue not pro-play or 5 mans.
Riot: "10" bans!
Players: [slayer-jinx-unamused]
SwaggyMcGhee4202 votesBut one player can win you the game! The int feeding enemy mid laner.
Mannny2 votes"This is why I don't care about ranked as much, it is a coin flip nowadays"
It's been a coin flip in low elo since ranked came out. The system is alright at gathering high elo players rank but is horrible at low elo players rank. I get trollers in almost every game I play, it's common down here but they only care if it hurts them. That's the only time they think the system is broken. This is the main reason high elo is festered with people with biased opions.
Mig891 votesThe only way to fix this would be to add more divisions such as wood tier and plastic for example. It's gonna be rougher waters with the sheer number of players in bronze and silver. They won't do it because I gaurantee a majority of the wood or lower tier players would just quit. Silver and gold are reasonable targets now for the average player. Imagine having to fight your way out of a division lower than wood tier, literally. Many would just quit
6Sfool1 votesPerformance-based ranking sounds nice, but Riot wants it to be based on your wins/losses because in the long run it's more reliable than performance, which is just an algorithm that favors some playstyles more than others.
The real reason ranked is screwy is because of their complicated elo-rank disparity paired with promos, which forces a near 50% win ratio and makes you grind more than necessary. Plus the way they weight the order of your wins makes it less honest than horse racing.
Quil Evrything2 votes"in the long run, it's a [more reliable rating] than [solo game performance]".. except it isnt a good thing for REAL LIFE playing. Number theory says that it is more reliable over THOUSANDS OF SAMPLES. that means THOUSANDS of games. Any player rating system for a supposedly "fun" game that is only accurate over thousands of games... is not a good rating system.
Plus, the number theory requires all things being equal. BUt in league,there are other hidden factors. such as smurfs and boosting. Which go AGAINST a fair player's favor. If you're not boosting, then you have an increased chance of the OTHER team being boosted, since there are 5 slots open for them, and only 4 slots for you.
IcyPepper1 votesbecause if you lose a coin flip ... one person can lose you a game. but one player cant win you a game. ... it's a coin flip nowadays.
Every game has an afk?
Leetri2 votesIn Bronze, every 10th game has 1 AFK. In Gold, every 20th. However those are the global stats, and some regions have a ton more AFKs than others. TR, BR, LAN, LAS and EUNE all have around 10% AFKs on average. EUW has 6.3% and NA 5.3%. On those servers with more than 10% AFKs, in Bronze there's an AFK every 6-7 games.
Since there's a chance for 4/5 members of your team to AFK and 5/5 members of the enemy team, statistically you'll win more games from an AFK than you lose (note, I'm not saying there's a 5/5 chance for an AFK, I'm saying that out of 5 people there's a chance one or more of those 5 will AFK). That is of course assuming you don't AFK yourself.
So all in all, roughly 9/10 games in Bronze does not come down to an AFK. As you climb the ranks it gets even less and less common that you get an AFK, down to ~3% in Diamond and above. It gets a bit more complicated as you can win games even with an AFK, I believe it used to be around 25% of all 4v5 games end in wins for the 4 man team. But even IF all games with an AFK are lost, they're not holding you back from climbing.
DeadUnborn1 votesI fond it ironic that the guy that was complaining ended up being carrying the game with kog and winning
Quil Evrything1 votesyeah. but if he wasnt with a hyper carry adc, he would have lost that game. so again... luck.
DeadUnborn1 votesI do agree the higher you go up the ladder the more matchmaking impacts win rates. However I think is an agregate of the 5 players on each team that determine it, not just one (although having a useless top laners is quite a heavy burden to carry). The problem with match making is that in sake of queue times it works on mmr averages to match both teams, but because the first 15 mins of the game are basically played 1v1 (with the obvious exceptions) then if say, the enemy top laner is d3 playing on him main against your top laners who actually mains adc but got autofilled...well it is pretty obvious which player has a better chance to win lane. Then because laning phase can translate into a lot of carry potential if you know what you are doing you can feel shut down of having an impact of the matches outcome...which sucks
Riot should pair each lane against people of similar mmr/ main lane matches (they have the data to do so). Yeah that would create longer queue times probably but I'd rather wait 7 mins in queue and have a fun match rather than wait 3 but waist 25 mins is a complete stompfest
Quil Evrything2 votesI would really like to see some mmr match tweaking. However, Rather than tweaking at that level, I would really like to see an end to this "a bronze plus a gold = 2 silvers" garbage. A bronze and a gold should NEVER BE IN THE SAME MATCH. But they can be, because bronze+silver = silver, and silver+gold=silver, so hey, "two silver duos". And junk like that.
heck, golds shouldnt be in any lower elo matches, EVER, in my opinion. There's just such a HUGE difference in ability most of the time.
(now some elite bastard diamond will come in and claim "everything plat and below is garbage, it's all the same".. No. It isnt. so shove it up your microscopic orifice)
just OK jungler1 votesthen there will be 0 support players and if there were, they would be mage supports
Rainfall1 votesin a game where there are 9 players of equal skill and a troll you will always lose. thats because skill diference is not much shown in the game unless its huge.
Skýcrow1 votesin a game where there are 9 players of equal skill and a troll you will always lose. thats because skill diference is not much shown in the game unless its huge.
It would be easier and the divisions would be much more balanced if the player is allow to snowball. Catch up xp was the worst idea riot ever had. It prevents the 1good guy to take over the game. And if his team is to shit compared to the enemy he looses, while the 5other players that aren't as skilled as him, win it. Because of this the divisions become unbalanced more and more, and it starts to become a flip coin. How rare is it today to find a even game? I don't rememeber in the past that games were decidet by ten Minutes of playing just because 1team is already 7/0. This is only happening because riot changed the game in a way that the worst player can loose it harder than the good player can carry.
Skýcrow1 votesI will tell you now something and most players will not believe me. I reached Diamond 3, i was over 800games in Dia 5-3 around and then it happened. loose after loose after loose and it doesn't stop. So what has changed and why does everyone say today it's a flip coin including myself? Low elo Player high elo player, it doesn't matter what i'm gonna tell you now, because everyone knows this one fact already. Riot changed the game in a way that you are even More teamdependable now, to win it. So what is the problem excatly with it? Let me tell it to you guys. Don't you feel like in most of your games were you play better than all 9Players, that somehow that bad guy on your team still can loose the game much harder, than you could win it? Yes you do, and so do i, and so does he, and so does every high elo Player feel. It's because riot stopped the snowball of a one person, but not of the whole team at all. Because of this, the worst player can loose it harder, than the best player can win. SO now again what do i wanna say to you with this? It's freaking Simple; If the shittiest player of all ten players, can loose it harder than the good player can win. It means the good player is too much depending on luck to reach his real elo. because of this, the whole tier and divisions can become super unbalanced between all ten Players. You will see players in your elo that, should never be even in there, they are much better and have unbelieveable good kdas, and unbalance the two teams even more, and after a certain amount of time it will become even worser, because now both teams have those good players. At the same time they have the shit ones too. I'm platinum 2 right now with plat 4 mmr. it is unreal that i'm still able to loose more games than i win, since i wasn't in plat anymore after mid season 6. The mistakes they do is unbelieveable crazy, both teams don't know anything anymore, but if one team gets ahead in the early, there is nothing i could do. The only roles that would allow me to carry or change the game right now are jungle or adc. But i suck in Both of them. (that's why i practice adc right now) Catch up xp is one of the issues, this feature is unbelieveable toxic, because it forces good players to stuck in a elo for much longer, where they shouldn't. How many games would i have prevented to becoming a loose if that simple feature wouldn't be in the game? I can't tell you enough how many times i was ahead of my enemy in the early on my Main champ, but couldn't close out the game or snowball hard enough, simply because of my team being the shittier one. Because of that i lost so many games. Riot fucked the game up believe it or not. I think if they don't change it for season 8, it will be the true season of League where the game starts to go downhill with it's playerbase.