Don't remove Rageblade, make it pure AD!

Khristophoros··31 votes·2,973 views

The impending removal of Guinsoo's Rageblade upsets me, because it's always been one of my favorite items. This isn't because it's hybrid. I don't think hybrid itemization is important. I just really like the mechanics of Rageblade. After some thinking I realized I mostly like it on champs that lean towards AD or are primarily AD champs like Jax and MF. I also liked it on Kassadin before for more auto-attacky builds.

It's a cool item because it gives you backloaded damage and has an interesting proc (when you fall below 50%) and these things actually offer a bunch of gameplay on certain kits. Lemme use MF as an example. Think of this in terms of the gameplay it offers, rather than the viability on the champion.

First of all, MF can suddenly have 6 Rageblade stacks nearly on demand. Basic Attack + casting Q is 2 stacks. Then Q can hit twice to add 2 more stacks. Then she gets another 2 from W and E casts. That's 6 total without ulting. She can easily get 7 in a short time and then ult for 8 during the ult.

Secondly, when the <50% HP thing procs, MF has the means to extend it for long periods of time because she is ranged, and she has her E for moments when being in attack range is too risky. She can't sustain it purely off E due to the cooldown, (EDIT: I think I remembered wrong. This is a mana issue.) so extending it for long periods involves finding moments to hit something with a basic attack or Q as well. Ultimately it leads to some pretty interesting gameplay. It changes how you play her.

So that's why I'm upset about the removal. I don't see value in the hybrid stats, just the gameplay concepts that result from the item.

Throwing out an example/suggestion of what Rageblade could look like as an AD item:

Guinsoo's Rageblade - Pickaxe + Recurve Bow Cost: 2675 (900) +30 Attack Damage +30% Attack Speed

Passive: Basic attacks (on attack) and spell casts grant +2.5% Attack Speed and +2.5 Attack Damage for 8 seconds (stacks up to 10 times). At 10 stacks, all physical and magical damage you deal is increased by 15%. UNIQUE Passive: Falling below 50% Health grants +20% Attack Speed, +10% Life Steal, and +10% Spell Vamp until out of combat (30 second cooldown).

Not much thought was put into the balance on that. It's just an example. I thought more total stacks would be interesting because some champs like MF can build a lot of stacks very quickly so giving it a higher cap might increase how much gameplay it gives those champs. Having a bonus at max stacks is something to look forward to, feels good, etc... Offers a small nod to champs with hybrid damage without being heavily hybrid in nature. In fact it doesn't specifically favor hybrid. It just doesn't exclude hybrid champs from being good with it.

56 Comments

Darkwind10 votes

The general thought behind this is good I think. I'd love to see rageblade stick around, and maybe as a pure AD item riot would be willing to look into it. The numbers aren't very well tuned, but you admitted that yourself xD

Narasimha4 votes

Then its not really the Rageblade anymore, its a different item entirely.

Khristophoros1 votes

How are the hybrid stats important at all? Items should be about the gameplay they offer. The cool thing about Rageblade is the ramping up stats and the <50% health passive. The fact that it currently gives a mix of AD and AP is not important. What needs to be retained is that it's a purely offensive item that gives ramping up stats. I believe it fits as an AD item because by nature it's an autoattack centric item.

Narasimha1 votes

Thats what we call an 'opinion'. Someone else might call it 'cool' BECAUSE it gives a mix of AD and AP. But the fact is, Rageblade is an item that gives AD, AP, and has a unique passive. Take any of that away, and its not the same thing.

Khristophoros1 votes

It offers unique gameplay. It needs to be viable on a wider variety of champions for people to enjoy that gameplay it offers.

So yes it needs to change in some way.

Teridax684 votes

I completely agree with the message of this post. Currently the main problems with Rageblade are only that it's a hybrid AP/AD item and that it's overloaded with stats (which is usually a side-effect of being a hybrid item). Its core gameplay niche (trading off instant power for massive ramping DPS) doesn't sound unhealthy at all, and it could be easily retuned to be an autoattacker-centric AD/AS item.

While the numbers and details are more secondary, I think you could also add a item 3044 to the recipe. The item's Rage passive would really work well on an on-hit item, but so far is constrained to item 3078 , which is more of an AD caster item. It would make sense, I think, to include it in Rageblade (if only for thematic reasons).

Kingsgrave2 votes

Health AD AS

gives more AS and MS whenever you autoattack

Could be a good fighter/bruiser item

shppy1 votes

agreed, I'd prefer this over OPs suggestion, but throw in the addition that 'abilities must hit at least one target to generate a stack'... believe me, you don't want to allow someone like Hecarim or Skarner (or anyone else with a low/no-cost low-cd ability like Nidalee's pounce) to constantly be able to spam Qs out of combat to build up speed ahead of time.

That, and the stacking bonus should be heavily diminished for ranged users... ranged ADs have well more than enough options for movespeed (and attack speed), well more than any other class. Something like this should be reserved for helping melee autoattackers compete in a game that heavily favors ranged autos.

Khristophoros1 votes

I totally disagree. I think one of the coolest things about Rageblade is it gives different gameplay to different champs. This is achieved by not restricting how you get the stacks. Nidalee can keep it at full stacks always, while Jax has to get into a fight and ramp it up. This is a huge difference in gameplay, and while in a vacuum Nidalee seems to just be better with the item, consider that Jax naturally scales better off the stats, so when he does ramp it up he ends up surpassing her in his use of the item.

Of course some champions will just use it better than others no contest, but that's how build diversity is achieved.

scaleblue3 votes

The main issue I have is that items are being removed at all. This game should only be gaining more items/choice, I would really dislike losing items/choice. ( not too mention that yesterday I read the entire wiki page on Guinsoo's Rageblade.)

JustMyBassCannon8 votes

Choice for the sake of choice is meaningless in a MOBA. That's why items get removed.

While I will miss Guinsoo's Rageblade, I can understand why it's leaving. It's a hyper-efficient, hybrid-only item that builds out of mediocre base stats to avoid making it the best item ever. The champions who can (and do) use it don't tend to really need it as much as they want it. It's not bought to fulfill any real purpose, just to get a few more hybrid stats.

Onegarion2 votes

Can't agree more. If no one is buying it then whats the point in having it? FOr that matter there are also a few other items that could be looked at (item 3005 item 3060 item 3056)

L1Tp525vBD1 votes

Leave banner of command alone please. It is my 4th item on heimerdinger, always... and I main heim.

Garlyle Wilds2 votes

Atma's Impaler is being removed as well.

Banner of Command still has its specific niche for certain champions, although it could still use some looking at.

Ohmwrecker's recieving revisions in Preseason.

Tortferngatr2 votes

Banner IS getting looked at--it now builds from Aegis+Codex IIRC and gives the minion you promote magic immunity and CC immunity.

Ohmwrecker is getting the ability to give allied towers an attack speed steroid, gives solid health regen, CDR, health, and armor (plus a movespeed boost near enemy or ally towers). At the very least Ohmwrecker's now worth taking on Azir.

Khristophoros1 votes

My whole suggestion is to change it so it's more viable because I think it creates unique gameplay. That's not "choice for the sake of choice". It's something that changes how you play.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

And you've made it into an item that grants +30-55 AD and +30-55% AS, as well as a % damage amp that's actually potentially stronger than Infinity Edge. Increase all non-true damage dealt by +15%? On a DPS-based class, that means a lot of damage output.

And yet, the moment you remove that damage amp, your redesign of Rageblade falls into the same trap again; it becomes a meaningless stat stick that players only pick up for want of stats rather than for need of fulfilling a niche. Except, in this design, even fewer champions actually want it, because it no longer has the same hybrid ramping. It's even slightly less cost-efficient than the original, but now I'm getting down to nitpicks.

Khristophoros2 votes

You are worrying about the numbers which can be tuned. I said this wasn't supposed to be a balanced example. The concept is important. Numbers are always tuned in playtesting.

And it's not a simple stat stick. You are not considering the gameplay offered by the ramping up passive. To understand the potential you have to go play with this item on various champions and pay attention to how and when you gain stacks. It is different because each champion has different opportunities to land attacks and use abilities. Think about that and you'll see how the gameplay it offers varies on different champions.

And how does it become viable on fewer champions, if the hybrid version is only viable on several champions to begin with? That makes no sense. An item that is focused on AD and AS would clearly be viable on a larger variety of champions than that.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

You are worrying about the numbers which can be tuned. I said this wasn't supposed to be a balanced example. The concept is important. Numbers are always tuned in playtesting.

Except the numbers are the concept. AD, AS, damage, Lifesteal and Spell Vamp. That's all this item offers, and part of it only once you're below half HP.

And it's not a simple stat stick. You are not considering the gameplay offered by the ramping up passive. To understand the potential you have to go play with this item on various champions and pay attention to how and when you gain stacks. It is different because each champion has different opportunities to land attacks and use abilities. Think about that and you'll see how the gameplay it offers varies on different champions.

On every single champion that would use Rageblade, all you do is build up the stacks. Usually you slap a Wraith or Wolf camp before jumping into a team fight so you're close to maxed stacks, so there is no ramping, just damage.

I'm saying this as a person who takes Rageblade; it doesn't "offer gameplay" with the ramping passive, it just offers stats that might go away if you don't fight frequently.

And how does it become viable on fewer champions, if the hybrid version is only viable on several champions to begin with? That makes no sense. An item that is focused on AD and AS would clearly be viable on a larger variety of champions than that.

They hybrid version was viable on far more champions than players would give credit. It was an entirely rational item choice on champions like Aatrox, Varus and Shyvana if you wanted a DPS booster that ramped everything. I recall seeing it rather frequently on Lucian.

It loses viability on some of the champions who could (or wanted to) use the AP ramping. Sure, it gains some viability on the champions who only have AD ramping, but without that damage amp passive, it still ends up being barely ever purchased. With that damage amp, it becomes a ridiculous mid-game power spike for champions like Miss Fortune and Jinx. Hell, I could actually see Riven taking this version; damage amp of 15% to everything? Thank you!

Khristophoros1 votes

The fact that you think you can always just get the stacks before every fight makes it hard to take anything you say seriously. You seem to be imagining all the ideal situations. In reality you are frequently denied the ability to do what you would like to do. Things are not timed or positioned so conveniently to assume you always have max stacks on your Rageblade. The exception to that is if your champion can freely spam abilities without negatively impacting anything, such as Nidalee.

Your theorycraft about the 15% at max stacks isn't too relevant. It's something that they'd iron out in playtesting. They'd probably try other ideas too. The intended message of this thread is that the ramping up mechanic is good.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

The fact that you think you can always just get the stacks before every fight makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

The stacks last 8 seconds.

I have 4 spells in my kit, and it's rather likely that one of them has less than an 8-second cooldown.

I could farm the two golems in bot lane and perpetuate my stacks while walking all the way up to the golems at top lane. Between two wraith camps and possible minions in the middle lane, I might have to cast 3 spells to keep them going in between minion farming.

But, who am I? Just someone who never used Rageblade, right? Hint: wrong

You seem to be imagining all the ideal situations. In reality you are frequently denied the ability to do what you would like to do. Things are not timed or positioned so conveniently to assume you always have max stacks on your Rageblade. The exception to that is if your champion can freely spam abilities without negatively impacting anything, such as Nidalee.

You seem to be assuming that I've never tested this before. And you know what they say about assumptions.

Your theorycraft about the 15% at max stacks isn't too relevant. It's something that they'd iron out in playtesting. They'd probably try other ideas too. The intended message of this thread is that the ramping up mechanic is good.

And why is it not relevant? You're making a suggestion, and I'm telling you it's shit, but I'm trying to do it nicely because most people don't even pay attention to the theory-crafting when I'm being straightforward about shit ideas

Khristophoros1 votes

Meanwhile as you build your stacks in the jungle, your team is trying to contest dragon or baron... or giving up on it because you're not with them. Or you know, you are actually where you're supposed to be and your stacks fall off because it's a stand off and you are not in a position to attack things.

The 15% thing is just an example. The concept is some kind of bonus at max stacks. You're fixating completely on the numbers in the example.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Meanwhile as you build your stacks in the jungle, your team is trying to contest dragon or baron... or giving up on it because you're not with them. Or you know, you are actually where you're supposed to be and your stacks fall off because it's a stand off and you are not in a position to attack things.

If I'm at Golems and my team's already fighting at Dragon or Baron, chances are I'm not going to make it there in the first place unless I'm fucking Shen. Maybe Twisted Fate or Pantheon. Doesn't matter; point is, you vastly overestimate movement speed.

No, not every time will you have a chance to farm a camp, but who says I need to kill the golems? I just need like 4 stacks and I'm good.

The 15% thing is just an example. The concept is some kind of bonus at max stacks. You're fixating completely on the numbers in the example.

So come up with an example that doesn't fixate on numbers, because that's what this entire concept is. Rageblade is literally nothing but a pile of numbers that build into bigger numbers.

Khristophoros1 votes

If you're at golems because you decided you need to be holding max Rageblade stacks at all times, and then your team loses baron, it's your fault. The point is, when your priorities are straight, your stacks will frequently fall off because your best course of action is, in fact, to prioritize objectives over Rageblade stacks.

I just told you, the concept is some bonus at max stacks. Is this a difficult concept to understand?

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

If you're at golems because you decided you need to be holding max Rageblade stacks at all times, and then your team loses baron, it's your fault. The point is, when your priorities are straight, your stacks will frequently fall off because your best course of action is, in fact, to prioritize objectives over Rageblade stacks.

My point is that it is not hard at all to perpetuate stacks that have an 8-second timer, if they activate whether you attack or cast a spell. You're making it sound like it's Jinx's gatling or Jax's passive, when it lasts about three times as long and has multiple propagation tools.

I named one theoretical way to build up stacks and keep them going permanently, and you name one time where I wouldn't be able to use that specific strategy (and, again, realistically, if they're fighting the enemy team at Dragon or Baron and I'm at golems, I'm only going to be helpful if they can drag the fight out long enough or get them to chase them in the river)

I just told you, the concept is some bonus at max stacks. Is this a difficult concept to understand?

I just told you, the concept is still all numbers, and thus theory-crafting about the numbers being too strong is relevant. The current Rageblade doesn't offer a bonus at max stacks, only below half HP. Yours offers both max stack bonuses and half-HP bonuses.

The problem with Rageblade is that it's all numbers, and it's currently totally unnecessary. This entire thread is "I like the ramping up mechanic on Rageblade, and I don't want to see it gone." If you love it so much, start maining Jax and Jinx, because Riot's removing the shitty Rageblade.

Khristophoros1 votes

It's not hard to sustain max stacks if you sacrifice more important things like being with your team when they need you. That was my point. I'm pretty sure this type of priority conflict happens a lot unless your strategy is to farm instead of help with objectives, which can be a valid strategy but then the rageblade stacks matter a lot less because you're just farming.

So the point is, the gameplay is there because generally when you're prioritizing objectives you are not able to sustain max stacks.

Tortferngatr1 votes

Suggestion: Make the stacks only cap at 3 if you aren't hitting champions with your abilities/autoattacks. Have an active that locks and doubles the stats for a short time, before consuming all of them.

This ensures that regardless of teamwork conflicts of interest, stack power is still backloaded (and you don't have a false incentive to farm instead of fight).

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

So the point is, the gameplay is there because generally when you're prioritizing objectives you are not able to sustain max stacks.

Except that is a massive lie. Or massive self-delusion, pick your poison.

It is not difficult to sustain maximum stacks at all. Unless you're being ultra-hyper-conservative of your mana, it's not hard to throw one spell at the 7-second mark to fully refresh your stacks, continue walking for 7 seconds, and--oh, look, I'm already in range of enemies with full stacks. Because I'm not playing League without my brain.

Khristophoros1 votes

It is easy if you prioritize the rageblade stacks over much more important things such as objectives. You can sit there farming all day and keep max stacks.

Anyway I'm done repeating myself.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

All you ever have to do is get 8 stacks once. From that point, you have to completely forget to do anything for 8 seconds in order to lose them. You are repeating an idiotic statement. Casting a low-CD spell that's going to be back up by the time you get into a fight is not going to prevent you from getting to objectives. It's the exact same concept as keeping Vlad's E stacks going.

ItsStout1 votes

Choice for the sake of choice is meaningless in a MOBA. That's why items get removed.

While I will miss Guinsoo's Rageblade, I can understand why it's leaving. It's a hyper-efficient, hybrid-only item that builds out of mediocre base stats to avoid making it the best item ever. The champions who can (and do) use it don't tend to really need it as much as they want it. It's not bought to fulfill any real purpose, just to get a few more hybrid stats.

Okay, you need to use Skype. Seriously. I thought I lost you and 5lacker forever.

My opinion on Rageblade, despite my affinity for it and Gunblade on Jax (op build yo) is the same. Its unnecessary. But, I feel inspired by the more interesting of the two passives to give it a more "last stand" oriented passive.

Guinsoo's Rageblade Buildpath: Phage + Dagger + Dagger Cost: Stats: 30 AD + 30% AS (Unique Passive) Rage: Attacking an enemy unit grants you 30 MS (Melee) or 15 MS (Ranged). This is doubled on killing a unit. Subsequent attacks grant stacks of Fury, up to four, granting 5% AS, 10 AD, and 5% MS per stack.

N080DY2 votes

pickaxe and recurve bow are expensive early-mid items. and it wont seem worth it for a complete item, given the stats id probably break it down a bit by incorporating longsword and dagger into the formula

Horrow2 votes

Why not just leave it in? Its not the best item, but it serves to make for some fun attack speed builds. I don't understand the point of removing it. :l

OwlMechanic2 votes

Yea I actually really enjoyed it both on Jax and on Varus (I know) but it's a fun item that can be surprisingly powerful and unexpected (that AS at max stacks is so ridiculous) I know it's not optimal, but it is a fun item... unlike say ohmwrecker/banner of command, both of which have interesting actives but are pretty much unuseable the vast majority of the game length.

FlaminMoe2 votes

Just make Surge a summoner spell again. It would be nice to have a new option.

Kingsgrave1 votes

item 3124 =item 3153 item 3181

lol

h0bb1t1 votes

Rageblade is one of my favorite items in the game. When I'd want to mess around with friends, I'd get it on Sona (along with Youmuu's Ghostblade, love the item and love Touhou). It's a great item for hybrid builds. Back in the day, I would run hybrid Ezreal. Built as an absolute glass cannon, and it was a ton of fun. Hybrid builds are still a thing. Please don't remove Guinsoo's Rageblade!

metaworldpeace101 votes

When it comes to removing an item or keeping it, I'll always side with the keeping it part. Its better to keep an item and balance it accordingly, rather than eliminate another item option.

FantasySniper1 votes

What's the point in having Rageblade if it isn't even Rageblade anymore?..

It's hybrid style is the reason it function the way it does, and I don't want to see that lost.

Khristophoros1 votes

What's the point in having Rageblade if it isn't even Rageblade anymore?..

It's hybrid style is the reason it function the way it does, and I don't want to see that lost.

Very few champions benefit from an AD+AP build. Yeah many champs have alternate builds but not too many of them want to mix AD and AP at the same time.

The core mechanics of Rageblade fit an autoattack centric playstyle. The AP just kind of restricts it to champs that build AP while retaining an autoattack centric playstyle so it's not really helpful for it to have AP. It just restricts which champs can use it.

FantasySniper1 votes

A small champion pool isn't a good enough reason to change it like this. (I also couldn't care less about the Hybrid builds for marksmen.)

Rageblade is designed to give a caster-attacker (Yeh, there could be a better name for that) the stats they want most: AP, AD, and AS to scale with both/either.

It fits the niche, and really well too. Changing it like this doesn't let it fit the niche anymore. I wish it could be different and that they could revamp it, like you do, but this is not how you do it.

ZenithEevee1 votes

Honestly, I'd rather have it removed than made pure AD. I mean, I build rageblade for my Hybrid champs, BECAUSE its a hybrid weapon, not for its awesome passives, just like how I build Gunblade for its twin sustain power.

PatMcGroyn1 votes

I think they should change Rageblade passive, and make it so that instead of giving extra atk spd & AP, as well as the spell vamp + lifesteal when under 50% health, they could make it into a hybrid penetration item (something that just doesn't exist in the game). It could still be built with Pickaxe + Blasting wand, and instead of stacking atk spd/ AP, it could have a stacking armor/ mr shred passive (plus a base amount of flat Arm Pen + Mag Pen).

Because as it is, hybrid itemization is complete shit. Creating an item like this would give niche hybrid builds a nice breath of fresh air.

Khristophoros2 votes

Hybrid is a failed concept. Every hybrid champion ended up focusing on a specific, powerful gameplay pattern which means they tended to focus on AP or AD. Akali was originally supposed to be hybrid but she ended up being played as an AP assassin.

Jax can pretty much just use any item. That's kinda what happens when you successfully make a hybrid champion. That's why it's a failed concept.

So they're phasing out hybrid itemization rather than improving it. It's a good plan, but I think the gameplay offered by Rageblade makes it worth salvaging.

PatMcGroyn1 votes

Isn't the fact that Jax has a variety of different possibly strong build paths a good thing? Shouldn't hybrid champs be that flexible, and be able to adapt to the game as it progresses? I tend to think so.

Ale non è male1 votes

Jax should build Gunblade rather than Rageblade, though, it is just way better item on him

ItsStout1 votes

Your idea (well and mine but it was Yolo at ten) sucks DICK.

You know why?

Same reason BT needed a change. It doesn't matter if its backloaded. Still a stat stick. Always a boring win more stat stick. It needs to be purged, just like BT was.

Khristophoros1 votes

Your idea (well and mine but it was Yolo at ten) sucks DICK.

You know why?

Same reason BT needed a change. It doesn't matter if its backloaded. Still a stat stick. Always a boring win more stat stick. It needs to be purged, just like BT was.

BT was not similar in any way. The requirement to farm minions is not tactically backloaded, it is strategically backloaded. It required farming in order to regain the stats. It did not change your tactics once you did get into battle. It just had an annoying time sink whenever you died/first bought it.

Apples to oranges. I'm actually shocked somebody would think this is a valid comparison.

ItsStout1 votes

Your idea (well and mine but it was Yolo at ten) sucks DICK.

You know why?

Same reason BT needed a change. It doesn't matter if its backloaded. Still a stat stick. Always a boring win more stat stick. It needs to be purged, just like BT was.

BT was not similar in any way. The requirement to farm minions is not tactically backloaded, it is strategically backloaded. It required farming in order to regain the stats. It did not change your tactics once you did get into battle. It just had an annoying time sink whenever you died/first bought it.

Apples to oranges. I'm actually shocked somebody would think this is a valid comparison.

It doesn't matter if its backloaded. ITS STILL JUST A STAT STICK THAT DOES NOTHING BUT BOLSTER STATS. ITS A BORING, USELESS, WIN-MORE ITEM THAT ISN'T CORE ON ANY CHAMPION AND ISN'T UNIQUE IN ANY GODDAM WAY. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL.

Ale non è male1 votes

@OP: If you make Guinsoo completely AD and you don't want hybrid itemization, why keep the Spell Vamp in the passive and the increased magic damage at full stacks? You'd rather give more AS, lifesteal or some armor penetration You really tried to rework this item around some champs that you like(see MF) more than reworking it in the general context Anyway, a so high AD+AS item will always going to be heavily unbalanced, especially adding a passive with increased damage at full stacks and further AS+LS in the passive, you just tried to create an overpowered item for some champs that benefit from some weird combination of stats inserted in the rework idea, throwing Guinsoo concept in it

The truth is that guinsoo needs to stay as it actually is, as it covers pretty well a niche that you could not like, but I don't see why it shouldn't exist in the game

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