Should The Fighter Category Be Further Divided Into Duelist And Bruiser?

Chromatic Eagle·Jan 3, 2015·66 votes·3,725 views

From what I can see, it's the widest category in the game, but I'm not sure how clear it is for new players, or even experienced ones. A fighter is someone who can deal and take damage correct? But we have champions that lean far more into offense like Fiora, while we have champions that lean far more into defense such as Garen I believe. Would it be easier to let people know that the Fioras build more offense while the Volibears build more defense? Also I could be totally ignorant about this idea.

86 Comments

PyroJan 3, 201521 votes

Most bruisers like Garen and Renekton build quite similar to duelists in the lane. Sure, you build Fiora offensively all the way, but for Renekton or Darius, especially in low level games, you can get Hydra into Black Cleaver as well. It's their teamfight bevahiour pattern that's vastly different and causes bruisers to build tankier.

I think it's fine as it is with the dual class system. Champions are labeled by their primary and secondary role, and bruisers have "Fighter/Tank" while champions like Fiora are "Fighter/Assassin".

Would it be easier to let people know that the Fioras build more offense while the Volibears build more defense?

Recommended core items already do that.

SecretAgentHulkJan 3, 20156 votes

Bingo. Knowing that Garen/Malph is Fighter/Tank*, I'm going to guess that Sunfire Cape is a good item, whereas knowing that Fiora/Jax/Riven is Fighter/Assassin, I'm going to probably get a Brutalizer or a Triforce or whatever these guys build somewhere in there. (I play fighter-tanks far more often than fighter-assassins.)

Fighter means duelist. An assassin fighter will win a duel by dealing more damage than they receive, while a tank fighter will win a duel by receiving less damage than they deal. I find that tank fighters bring more utility to my team because they tank, but that's my playstyle; I never could figure out assassins.

*Yes I know that Malph is tank/fighter, but if you rush Sunfire Cape, you're playing fighter, not tank. Deal with it.

XenohazJan 3, 20152 votes

*Yes I know that Malph is tank/fighter, but if you rush Sunfire Cape, you're playing fighter, not tank. Deal with it.

How so? Not trying to start an argument, it's just that I've never seen this thought before.

Completely agree with the rest of your post btw.

SecretAgentHulkJan 3, 20156 votes

I should have said laning as a fighter rather than playing as one. I see Sunfire Cape as an offensive item, not a defensive one; it's something you build when you want to be oppressive in your tankiness rather than secure in it, if that makes sense. Usually after cape and boots I will then build true tank.

XenohazJan 3, 20153 votes

Oh ok. That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Hyrum GraffJan 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I should have said laning as a fighter rather than playing as one. I see Sunfire Cape as an offensive item, not a defensive one; it's something you build when you want to be oppressive in your tankiness rather than secure in it, if that makes sense.

Yes, it does. Another way of saying it, is that is has a soft taunt -- because you deal damage by being not dead, it encourages your opponents to focus you. However, bruisers don't really want to be focused, they want to go wreck the enemy backline. Tanks, on the other hand, want to soak damage for their team. So, IMO, sunfire cape makes more sense to build on a fighter/tank than a fighter/assassin.

Remlap1223Jan 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Most bruisers like Garen and Renekton build quite similar to duelists in the lane. Sure, you build Fiora offensively all the way, but for Renekton or Darius, especially in low level games, you can get Hydra into Black Cleaver as well. It's their teamfight bevahiour pattern that's vastly different and causes bruisers to build tankier.

I think it's fine as it is with the dual class system. Champions are labeled by their primary and secondary role, and bruisers have "Fighter/Tank" while champions like Fiora are "Fighter/Assassin".

Recommended core items already do that.

Pretty much this. Although I consider Vi more of a bruiser than a blender, even though her secondary is assassin.

Wînter FoxJan 3, 20156 votes

You guys are making this overly complicated. There are the standard classes, then the hybrid ones.

** Standard Classes**:

Fighter - Riven XinZhao Irelia Jax

Tank - Amumu Malphite Nautilus Rammus

Assassin - Zed Akali Khazix Rengar

Hybrid Classes:

Fighter/Tank [Bruiser] - Garen Darius JarvanIV Hecarim

Fighter/ADC [Melee ADC] - Fiora Tryndamere MasterYi Yasuo

Fighter/Assassin [?] - Evelynn Diana RekSai Nocturne

Champion SkinJan 4, 20151 votes

Garen is a really bad tank though... He is durable but a tank is generally classified by being a threat even with no to low damage by using their CC and lock down which Garen doesn't really have... Garen deals no or low damage you can simply ignore him well mostly anyways

EdbwnJan 4, 20151 votes

Garen is in the same ballpark of archetype as Mundo - he's good at diving the adc and killing them while zoning them from the rest of the fight, but they're both kind of bad at peeling, whereas champs like Maokai or Shen have much better peel.

Champion SkinJan 4, 20151 votes

They are durable fighters... they threaten with their damage While tanks on the other hand threaten with their CC

EdbwnJan 5, 20151 votes

You just said Garen has little to no damage...

Champion SkinJan 5, 20151 votes

Yeah if he builds full tank and pretends he is a tank and a CC machine....

StephenizgodJan 5, 20151 votes

Actually Garen does do damage, it is not wise to completely ignore him. Building IE and Black Cleaver then full tank can make Garen a real threat if you were to just ignore him. Also Garen makes a great tank if you build full tank, he can tank Turrets, Baron, Dragon, as well block skillshots that would otherwise hit a carry. He can do this thanks to his W which is a fantastic Tank ability.

Champion SkinJan 5, 20151 votes

Of course Garen deals damage if he builds IE and black cleaver And his ult will always deal the same damage (unless you build magic pen or DFG)

StephenizgodJan 5, 20151 votes

What i meant was you can build IE and Black Cleaver and then build the rest tank. Then Garen will not only have a lot of Tank thanks to his W, he will also dish out a ton of damage with his E which can crit. Garen makes a fantastic Tank who can deal damage.

Champion SkinJan 7, 20151 votes

You can build Jax with only one or two damage items he still isn't a tank

The thing is that tanks are mostly defined by their CC and base damages (which they need to get past the laning phase where they are on their own) They don't need any damages as their primary focus is to protect allies and lock down enemies to prevent them from dealing damage to allies Garen has no real way of protecting allies or locking down enemies (other then running/flashing in front of skill shots) that's why he is a bruiser/fighter not a tank and that is why he needs damage and some damage items

You could be the most durable/tanky champion in the game but you still wouldn't be a good tank if you had no CC

StephenizgodJan 7, 20151 votes

Eh thats not entirely true. A tank is someone who can take damage that would otherwise go to their team. Garen can do that by running at the ADC and spinning. Now he is a threat and being focused, this is damage not going towards his team. That is a different way of tanking other then stunning or slowing everyone, not all Tanks require CC.

Garen has a long silence which is very useful in keeping one person from flashing or using a dash to escape.

Champion SkinJan 8, 20151 votes

Well if all that is required is that you take damage for your team can't any champion be a tank if they simply build lots of tanky items and run in the front and take the damage for the team (bonus if you are teemo hey who wouldn't want to kill a squishy little demonic teemo) after all most champions are usually of some threat even if they build full tank (or people just target them even if they aren't)

StephenizgodJan 8, 20151 votes

Well yes but some champions are more efficient as Tanks and those are true tanks. Whether they have built in tank abilities or a lot of low damage high CC abilities, they are tanks. Tanks aren't required to be overloaded with CC.

AtheosisXJan 3, 20154 votes

Assassin - high damage, high mobility, low durability, low cc Fighter - high to moderate damage, moderate to low mobility, moderate to low durability, low cc Tank - moderate to low damage, low mobility, high durability, high to moderate cc

There are exceptions and hybrids, but overall I think these three categories cover nearly all melee champs. A duelist category would be confusing as each group has powerful 1v1 champs. I mean what exactly is a duelist anyway? It's pretty fuzzy. Nasus, Riven, and Akali are all strong 1v1 champs, so are they all duelists?

Chromatic EagleJan 3, 20152 votes

Nasus I'm not sure. Riven I always assumed she was a duelist, and keep getting surprised when I find out she's an Assassin. I think Akali is a mixture of a few things, which is why I'm hoping Riot does something with her.

AtheosisXJan 3, 20155 votes

The point is that duelist isn't really a proper class of champs because all kinds of different champs are duelists in terms of their ability to win 1v1 fights.

Chromatic EagleJan 3, 20151 votes

True, but don't we have Riot trying to rework Fiora into more of a duelist? I think I'm trying to say is that there might be a guideline about what a duelist should have compared to a bruiser. Didn't they discuss making Yasuo into more of a fighter or an assassin? Then there was the Diana rework. I'm not sure how to phrase my point here.

AtheosisXJan 3, 20151 votes

Yes they said they want to make Fiora more of a duelist, but that still doesn't make it a distinct class of champ. It's more a descriptor than a class. I don't recall what they said about Yasuo, though again whether he's a fighter, assassin, or a hybrid of the two doesn't really matter in terms of duelist being a term that applies to too many different kinds of champs.

OneriosJan 3, 20154 votes

Yas was meant to fill in the melee adc role, so probably came under the "light fighter" classification, but he has a stronger gap closer then most of them and front loaded damage, so ends up bleeding into the assassin pool.

A Slime AppearsJan 3, 20152 votes

Fiora's title is Grand Duelist. There is no "duelist" class, Fiora just has duelist in her title and they want to emphasize that.

TheRainInSpainJan 4, 20152 votes

Riven is an assassin because of her ability to burst people down. Bursting people down is the mark of every assassin. She is one of many Fighters that can be slated as a "Melee Carry". The term ADC refers to champions who use their Auto Attackers as 60%+ of their damage output, and builds attack speed to force multiply. So Riven technically is not an ADC by that definition (shout at the people who said ADC+Support Bot Only, because that's where this definition comes from) because Riven doesn't build attack speed.

A Fighter/Assassin is a champion that is melee, wants to stay in fights (so more people can die), and has very high burst power. Almost all of them also can be called melee carries and they're renowned for clean up capacity. Pure assassins would rather jump in, delete one guy, and jump out. Pure fighters just want to create havoc.

It's a very tricky thing to categorize all "Fighter" subgroups, though in my opinion the simplest re-categorization would be to identify the heavier fighters as Bruiser, and identify the lighter fighters as Fighter.

TJAyoJan 3, 20154 votes

Completly agree, Jax and Jayce play so much differently then Volibear and Sion that calling them both "Fighter" is a little bit of a stretch

HandheldBrandonJan 3, 20153 votes

TBH i dont see a problem with the fighters as they are because you have bruisers and then you have Melee ADCs ala MasterYi Tryndamere Fiora .

The REAL problem is Assassins.

Most assassins play like assassins but can also play like bruisers with even more mobility and damage. People like Zed Yasuo Akali Kassadin All build damage items and have the damage to burst you however throw a randuins or a Rod of Ages into that mix for example and suddenly they become incredibly beefy while still putting out huge damage. It needs to be looked at

XtremeyJan 4, 20153 votes

IMO fighters are made up of 3 classes:

Hypertanks (auto attack based fighters that have one or multiple steroids and only need one or two offensive items to do damage): Jax Irelia Shyvana Mini Gnar Nocturne Udyr XinZhao Olaf Aatrox Trundle Warwick Volibear RekSai Poppy Skarner

bruisers (Spell based fighters that only need one or two offensive items to do damage): Darius Renekton Garen Sion JarvanIV Hecarim LeeSin Nasus Pantheon Mega Gnar Gragas MonkeyKing

Light Fighters (squishy, high mobility dps fighters that usually only build one defensive item): Fiora MasterYi Riven Tryndamere Yasuo

MessaigaJan 3, 20152 votes

The way I view it, it is already kind of accomplished (but may need a bit of a normalization). Almost every champion that is listed as a fighter/assassin or assassin/fighter is a pretty good duelist (Jax, Trynd, Riven, Zed, Yasuo, Irelia, Yi, Kha'Zix, Poppy, Fiora, etc).

The few that aren't fighter/assassin are fighter/tank, have very high sustained damage, and are extremely tanky (Nasus, Olaf, Warwick, Darius, maybe Skarner).

Then there are some ADC's that fall under duelist (Vayne, Quinn, not sure of Twitch) and have the assassin tag as their secondary.

So for the most part, a duelist will have the assassin tag as their primary or secondary. And what this means for the class of fighters as a whole, they should probably be more diversified based on their secondary trait (Fighter/Tank would be better teamfighters, Fighter/Assassin would be better at dueling).

AtheosisXJan 3, 20152 votes

Fighter/Tanks are some of the strongest 1v1 champs in the game and many can completely destroy champs with assassin in their roles. On top of that you have some mages like Swain and Malzahar who can 1v1 most champs any time they have their ult available, especially assassins. Assassins are for the most part oriented towards quickly killing squishies rather than actually dueling. I would say that the Fighter role being present in a champ's description is more indicative of dueling ability than the presence of Assassin.

The SwedeJan 4, 20152 votes

Yes. This would help with classification so much. Although I doubt this will happen anytime soon due to how messed up the classification system is. (alistar and blitz are both "tanks" :P)

XyphiosJan 4, 20152 votes

[deleted]

CoolKnightSTJan 4, 20151 votes

I would class Jax as bruiser/duelist or duelist/bruiser than. It's not that he's really that of an assassin. He's more about outdueling an enemy.

Trundle would be more difficult. I think bruiser/duelist would suit him best since it requires a enemy tank to forfill his tank job.

TheRainInSpainJan 5, 20152 votes

Easy solution to that problem.

Does Jax build full tank? No? Then he's not a tank. Does Jax go in for one kill and then leave? No? Then he's not a pure Assassin. Does Jax build some defense, but mostly offensive items? Yes. Okay, good. Does Jax have natural bulk but at the same time limited CC? No. Okay, Jax is a Fighter.

Does Trundle go full tank? No? So he's not a tank either. Does Trundle go for one kill and leave? No? He sticks around and rekts face until he's low. Does Trundle build some defense, but mostly offensive items? Actually, Trundle builds the other way around. Does Trundle have natural bulk but at the same time limited CC? Yes. Okay, Trundle is a Bruiser.

USMCxCrypt2671Jan 4, 20151 votes

No, it's as pointless as the thousand sub-genres that people have created for music.

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 4, 20152 votes

But don't all of those sub-genres further clarify what kind of music it is? Just adding a point, but I believe the nicknames for the different fighters ATM would further clarify the game to help differentiate what kind of builds (for players trying the champion for the first time) work better than other build paths for champions also listed as "fighters"

Chromatic EagleJan 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

But don't all of those sub-genres further clarify what kind of music it is? Just adding a point, but I believe the nicknames for the different fighters ATM would further clarify the game to help differentiate what kind of builds (for players trying the champion for the first time) work better than other build paths for champions also listed as "fighters"

This. This is what I've been trying to say. Thank you.

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 4, 20152 votes

No problem :) glad I could help. Since I noticed that Rek'Sai is a PURE fighter (since she doesn't have any secondaries) I thought Rek'Sai would be, as stated, a fighter. A Champion who would duel someone either 1v1 or be able to deal damage in a short amount of time, since that is what most fighter/assassins do right now. Fighter/assassins, however, are somewhat different in the sense that they are characterized (in my head, at least) to defeat weak targets the quickest, or be able to deal large sums of damage within a combo either with or without their ultimate, and be mobile in the same sense. Rek'Sai is mobile, but only in one direction: towards their target, or retreating to safety. Assassins can go either way, much like Lee Sin with his two dashes, or Zed's shadows. Vi can only go in one direction, because if she retreats, she has to keep retreating, or else she can't really deal too much damage until her spells are off CD. To kind of explain what the Duelist/Bruiser tags would mean to people who are hearing these terms for the first time... Duelist: A Melee Champion who is meant to be in the back line (once all the disabling spells have been used) and also deal the most damage. While they can give a beat-down, they can't take one, so they are rather fragile unless you build some sort of defensive items, but these Duelists are better suited in the offensive build path. Bruiser: A beefy Melee Champion who can take a beating, but not really deal too much damage. These Champions usually start the fight and excel in displacing the enemies in order to give your team the advantage over the opposing team. Also, these champions usually have some sort of CC (stuns, slows, knockups, silences, etc) as well as AOE damage in order to whittle away at as many enemies as possible as the rest of the team follows up to help in taking down the priority targets, so the defensive build path is the better choice for these Champions.

ThatAutofillSuppJan 4, 20151 votes

I want a name for a mage/tank too D: Not just "mage" or "tank" but something like bruiser mage

Tin TarantinoJan 4, 20151 votes

AP bruiser is what I've been calling Galio, Dianna and Ryze.

ThatAutofillSuppJan 4, 20151 votes

I mean like a official role/name for team builder… like fighter but for mage

Spiritflare868Jan 4, 20152 votes

I think the term you're looking for is Battle Mage. Champs like Lissandra or dmg Sejuani who are much beefier mages. Other examples would be like, Swain, Viktor, Annie etc.

RavenMagusJan 4, 20151 votes

Fiora, Yi, and Tryndamere honestly should just get the Assassin tag. Even if they don't feel like it stylistically, that's what their build path and play style ends up being.

Wînter FoxJan 4, 20152 votes

I think the class designation should focus on their kit alone, not the build. Building Deathcap on Garen won't make him a Mage the same way building Youmuu's on Tryndamere won't make him an Assassin.

TheRainInSpainJan 5, 20151 votes

It is by nature that all champions that are capable of being melee carries also retain Assassin traits. If they were ranged champions, they'd all be called Marksmen.