Please keep the moral ambiguity between Kayle and Morgana

Chromatic Eagle··145 votes·5,993 views

This bears constant repeating. While fans are afraid that Riot will turn Kayle into a pure good woman, while Morgana becomes pure evil, I'm afraid the opposite will happen. Kayle becomes a bigoted dictator, and Morgana is an edgy anarchist.

For me, the biggest thing between these sisters is that their ends justifies their means. Kayle wants peace, and Morgana wants freedom. Both on their own is fine, but it's their methods that causes them to fight. Morgana ended up using dark magics, while Kayle became (possibly? Riot never expanded on her as much) merciless, judgmental, etc..

Both should be good enough so that fans can rally behind them, but bad enough that they have actions that we condemn. That doesn't mean turn them into mustache twirling villains, or victims. Having said that, Morgana has to be a fallen angel for some reason.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I'm worried about retconning the JoJ and the IoW. Those things emphasized that Morgana wasn't entirely a horrible person. She baked things and saw Kayle as a tyrant. Kayle was also part of the tribunal. She's an enforcer who believes in upholding the rules and maintaining order.

117 Comments

Teenbus34 votes

Thanks for posting this; the emphasis on ambiguity is a MUST for these characters. Too often I see people deciding that, for example, Demacia is entirely evil and Noxus is entirely good in the name of 'ambiguity,' but that misses the mark. We need a lore that allows us to see Runeterra as complex, giving a glimpse into the internal struggles of some of its most notable characters.

Gorgannan28 votes

I'm so sick of people acting like Morgana is the perfect princess, and Kayle is the evil oppressive dictator.

They're both doing what they believe.

Don't hate Kayle because she reminds you of your socially responsible parents.

Rozzeta5 votes

Blame Aether skin. Her very lore states that Morgana is not free of sin, but the Aether wing skin pretty much confirms that Kayle looks for a dictatorship. She's not necessarily bad, though, depending on what her concept of Utopia includes (depending on the state of her home country after the civil war, she could very well have been considered a savior).

That said, I agree that the grey morality both Kayle and Morgana have should still remain gray, rather than try to define a hero and a villain.

Gorgannan11 votes

It's the same as the Demacia Vs. Noxus.

Like, I get that they're both a gray area, but Noxus is very dark gray, and Demacia is very light.

"But Demacia is all about nobility and being born into power and Noxus is about self made men!"

Yeah, evil Demacians being born into power and then basically forcing the powerful few to take care of everyone else, while Noxus promotes you based on how many poor bastards you kill.

Individual people may be equal on morality between the places, but I know which country I'd support.

The one that doesn't fuck me in the ass for being inept in combat.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

{quoted}

Individual people may be equal on morality between the places, but I know which country I'd support.

The one that doesn't fuck me in the ass for being inept in combat.

Weird, I'd go for the opposite

http://cdn.designbyhumans.com/product/design/u725198/pr44594-600x600-b-p-000000.jpg

Gorgannan10 votes

A man chooses to kill you and it's Vlad so good luck fucker.

Ralanr1 votes

This is why I'd choose pitover or ionia in terms of city states/countries.

Tesla Effect4 votes

{quoted}

This is why I'd choose pitover or ionia in terms of city states/countries.

Piltover is flawed just as much as Demacia is and is the mirror image of Zaun.

Ionia on the other hand has strong political individuals that take the middle rout, the grey, and tends to be more balanced rather than going to extremes. Champions like Karma are a good representation of this grey that Ionia has the option of taking after the whole disbalance thing happening right before, during and after Noxus invaded Ionia.

In general, yes to gray champions and grey situations in general because they usually are more realistic and tend to be more interesting of a moral dilemma.

Gorgannan2 votes

Uh, Zaun does science to see how far they can go, how much power they can gain, and how much money it makes them.

Piltover is for technology for a better future.

One's endgame is dystopia, the other utopia. Piltover is probably the most pure faction in the game.

GenoXx3 votes

Ajuna's Killer.

FantasySniper1 votes

Piltover is narcissistic, and Zaun doesn't give a flying fuck what others think of their methods. Major difference here is that one is very good about hiding their flaws. Take Jayce vs. Viktor. Why is Jayce working with this ultra powerful device for the Piltovian government? Viktor obviously only seeks to further his own (unethical) goals, but what are the goals of Piltover?

Both cities claim "scientific progression", but there's two faces to the same coin. I really hope I don't have to provide any historical examples, because the obvious ones are already pretty well known.

Riot is probs going to do a serious re-write with Piltover vs. Zaun lore, especially since most Piltovian champions have little depth or goals.

Champion Skin1 votes

Lux judgment (old lore) doesn't exactly make Demacia look very good

Gorgannan1 votes

She's born into power, with an advantage, and they make her bear the weight of protecting the weak.

It's a dick move, but it's a hell of a lot better than "emfh."

I've never understood why expecting a lot from those advantaged made Demacia "evil." Talon got where he is by killing his best friend for a weapon.

Ralanr2 votes

Wasn't it because she was a child when it happened? Kicking and screaming?

Noxus is more up front with its flaws (and it'll debate the concept of "flaws" with you if it didn't bother to trample over you and claim you are a part of Noxus) but Demacia has a fair share of problems.

Though I think we know more of Noxus than we do of DEMACIA.

Noxus Champs: Darius Draven Cassiopeia Katarina LeblancSwain Sion Talon Urgot Riven (technically still Noxus) Champs that relate to Noxus through their lore:Annie Alistar DrMundo Morgana Singed (I'm ignoring Ionian champs because that's a LOT). Demacian Champs:Fiora Galio Garen Lux Poppy Quinn Sona JarvanIV Vayne XinZhao Shyvana Champs that relate to Demacia through their lore: I can't think of any.

If I've missed any please tell me.

Noxus has had a bigger effect on the world simply because it constantly expands. Thus we can see more of Noxus (and thus we can see it's a dark grey in terms of morality). Demacia has had no real influence on the world aside from being in conflict with Noxus. Which the League of Legends and Summoners kinda stopped with the League. Now that the League is gone we can finally see more of Demacia's influence on the world, good and bad.

Celio Hogane HD1 votes

You missed Lucian, Lucian is demacian.

And kayle is related to Demacia (and the point of this post XD)

Ralanr1 votes

She actually isn't. She was connected to the league. Since the league is no longer a thing she'll probably be rewritten as Demacian. But she's not yet.

And where did it say that Lucian is from Demacia?

Celio Hogane HD2 votes

Rioters said will stay as someone from another dimension tough.

If i remember correctly, it was in Lucian Q&A, and i thing you can see it in the web.

Ralanr2 votes

I'm glad they're keeping that. Can't say I'm interested in Valoran having a natural race of angels.

I'm still surprised that Lucian is from Demacia. I never really did think about where he was from. I wonder if his order is from Demacia.

Actually I wonder if his order was more than just him and his wife.

Celio Hogane HD2 votes

well if you look at Lucian Suit, it looks similar to Fiora in some extend.

Gorgannan1 votes

We don't hear about Demacia because their big goal is "don't let Noxus take over the world."

Which they're trying to do.

James Stone1 votes

{quoted}

We don't hear about Demacia because their big goal is "don't let Noxus take over the world."

Which they're trying to do.

Again, wrong. Quoting directly: "The residents are always striving to sharpen their bodies and minds in the pursuit of absolute justice".

The pursuit of absolute justice. That's their goals. A goal that is easily corruptible. So no, no matter how much you want to paint it that way, Noxus isn't the villain of the day that wants to conquer the world. Noxus values individual strengh, Demacia values absolute justice, and Swain and LeBlanc have been manipulating Noxus together to achieve their own goals.

Orbv2 votes

I think you're only thinking about the warring side of Noxus. Yes they have a strong military, but that's because they are a Meritocracy. It's much easier to excel in killing other warriers than it is to master a craft better. For instance, Zaun (The Noxus to Piltover) is the science capital of that region, where Singed/Dr Mundo/Warwick all are crazy about their experiments because of the massive reward that the best discovery could give them. However, what Riot has failed to do so far is represent a champion who thrives in another profession in the capital of the region.

There can literally be competition for everything. Imagine a beauty pageant champion, who basically is PERFECT. A merchant who will sell ANYTHING. A school teacher who WILL have perfect attendance and outstanding grades. There are many extremes to success (capitalism) that cannot be achieved in Demacia.

Gorgannan1 votes

They don't like perfection. Like like power.

Perfect attendance isn't power. Someone really beautiful isn't powerful unless they use it for power.

In which case how does it give you power? As an advantage over others. Their thing is exploiting everyone. That's it.

James Stone1 votes

{quoted}

They don't like perfection. Like like power.

Perfect attendance isn't power. Someone really beautiful isn't powerful unless they use it for power.

In which case how does it give you power? As an advantage over others. Their thing is exploiting everyone. That's it.

How ruefully simplistic

Gorgannan1 votes

I don't write the lore, I just don't change it to fit the fanfiction I like.

Orbv1 votes

But you have changed it. It's not simply about Power. There are many realms throughout Valoran that Noxus has never cared to take over. In the JoJ they've said that spreading out to other regions when at a critical moment with Demacia is a waste of time.

The Perfect reference was in relation to a specific archtype, of which VIKTOR is from Zaun which is a town under the sovereign of Noxus, and he desires perfection. It was only through his pursuit of perfection that he sought to make the world perfect, which would be rewriting the lore to say that he simply wants Power over the world.

It's been said many times that Noxus has a good army, but so does Demacia. And wouldn't the region who penalizes robbers with hangings and being out past curfew with jail time be considered the kingdom who is obsessed with Power? Since control over everyone is a type of power? All references from the JoJ

Gorgannan2 votes

"The city shares a friendly relationship with the nation of Noxus. " Zaun ISN'T Noxus, so your Viktor point is moot.

Where has it been said many times that Noxus has a good army? I'm sorry, they tried eliminating the Barbarians, hostile takeover of Ionia, and mass looting of Shurima.

It literally says in countless places "Noxus cares about power." It's what their country values. Not perfection. Not anything else. The way to get big is with power. You have power In Noxus so you can exploit the weaker.

And no, the Country that penalizes criminals doesn't do it for power. It literally says in the lore, those in power in Demacia feel it is their duty to protect the common people.

James Stone1 votes

{quoted}

It's the same as the Demacia Vs. Noxus.

Like, I get that they're both a gray area, but Noxus is very dark gray, and Demacia is very light.

"But Demacia is all about nobility and being born into power and Noxus is about self made men!"

Yeah, evil Demacians being born into power and then basically forcing the powerful few to take care of everyone else, while Noxus promotes you based on how many poor bastards you kill.

Individual people may be equal on morality between the places, but I know which country I'd support.

The one that doesn't fuck me in the ass for being inept in combat.

Noxus isn't all about combat. It also promotes you based on your intelligence, your critical thinking skills, your knowledge and your artistic merit. It values you as much as you can contribute to society, not just the war effort

Gorgannan1 votes

Your artistic merit? Dude, you're reading way too much fanfiction.

They care about one thing. Power. Knowledge is power, but they only like it for power. Power is only displayed when it's used over people. They care about people who can fuck you right in the ass.

Celio Hogane HD3 votes

well i don't know dude Sion statue didn't made it itself... i think...

Gorgannan2 votes

Ok? Some poor bastard made Darius' gloves, but it wasn't super glorious. Who do people remember when a statue is erected? 1. The guy who the statue is of, and 2. The guy who paid for it.

James Stone1 votes

{quoted}

Your artistic merit? Dude, you're reading way too much fanfiction.

They care about one thing. Power. Knowledge is power, but they only like it for power. Power is only displayed when it's used over people. They care about people who can fuck you right in the ass.

And you are oversimplifying things to the point of absolute ridicule. Don't be naive, there is a lot more to power than just the art of war. Do you think all those artists during the Italian Renaissance got their funding because everyone suddenly started appreciating art so much more than before? NO! It happened because an influx of newly rich people wanted to show off to their peers, gain social merit and proclaim themselves the owners of something exquisitely unique. In other words, they wanted power, but not the type of power you can use to clubber your enemies to death.

Also, if there is a fanfiction that deeply explores the Meritocracy values of Noxus, please redirect it to me because I never read one.

Hell, I'm not even a fan of Noxus, but your analysis would be deeply insulting on how underdeveloped it is if it was applied to a real faction/political party.

Gorgannan1 votes

You're adding actual requirements of a civilization to this fictional one. I'm not over simplifying, that's what is i the lore. I've read the JoJ 6 times.

It's NOT a real faction/political party. It says in the lore, they care about power in all it's forms. That's their priority. You can claim I'm oversimplifying, but I"m saying what's in the lore. Quit whining.

James Stone1 votes

{quoted}

You're adding actual requirements of a civilization to this fictional one. I'm not over simplifying, that's what is i the lore. I've read the JoJ 6 times.

It's NOT a real faction/political party. It says in the lore, they care about power in all it's forms. That's their priority. You can claim I'm oversimplifying, but I"m saying what's in the lore. Quit whining.

"In all it's forms". Here's the part you are ignoring and keep doing your best effort to ignore, and the basis for your gross oversimplification. But no problem, your "quit whining" comment tells me you are too stubborn to have an actual argument, so good day and bye bye

Xyrne4 votes

Know who else was doing what he believed in? HITLER! I'm not saying Kayle is Hitler, but it is possible for a woman to grow a mustache. Just sayin'.

FantasySniper9 votes

Like with Demacia vs. Noxus.

It's not good vs. evil, it's Order vs. Chaos, but with Morg and Kayle, even they barely tread the fine lines of that moral compass.

Tesla Effect7 votes

{quoted}

Like with Demacia vs. Noxus.

It's good vs. evil, it's Order vs. Chaos, but with Morg and Kayle, even they barely tread the fine lines of that moral compass.

Order isnt necessarily good, nor is Chaos bad. There are just two different philosophies which can be good and evil depending on how you enact them.

IcyPepper7 votes

Too much Order and society becomes oppressed. There is no reason to progress, because there is no conflict.

Too much Chaos and anarchy reigns.

Just like good and evil, a balance is needed for progress to be made.

UomoAfide8 votes
Verxint5 votes

I've always seen Morgana vs Kayle as being more about individuality and the self vs the greater whole, it's a much more sophistacted dynamic than "good vs evil" or "dictator vs rebel"

FantasySniper4 votes

I'd still consider "conformity vs. independance" part of the "order vs. chaos" axis, but you could argue it's the third axis of morality.

I Came For You5 votes

They need to keep Kayle masked and Morgana wearing barely anything... to you know, show the difference in morals.

The Soulforged1 votes

I love the ambiguity, but currently, Morgana actually feels like the "good guy". I mean, what evil is there in using magic is supposedly bad? What makes it bad? We don't have nearly enough information to label Morg as bad, but we can easily label Kayle as bad.

Ralanr2 votes

So far all it seems to do is make her purple.

The other angels broke her wings.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

i honestly think morgana and kayle should work together morg is about freedom about how order does not always equal good but sometimes order is needed Kayle just wants what is best but she doesn't understand that her way of thinking brings about tyrants.i want their to be grey area between all conflicts because that's what makes the best story and how life really works. same for Noxus VS Demacia and Winter claw VS Avorosa VS Frostguard. Also Zed Vs The kinkou order needs to be looked at more since it's really too one sided.i would like to see more development with Shurima.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

While I prefer leaving their conflict more open ended, there's a chance that they can resolve it. Look at TF and Graves.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

wat which are you talking about? i really love noxus and would still cheer for it if it won or something i really dislike Demacia they try too hard to be story book heros i just want to see everything crash down on JarvanIV

Neamean3 votes

They are not really that story book hero, Jarvan experience some kind of trauma, Lux could be a bit crazy too if you read her lore, Xin Zhao is the story of some badass veteran, Shyvanna had a harsh early life being an outcast, and Poppy make reader goes to feeladelphia. I mean they do try to be "good" but its generally not them trying to be a hero it them trying to be the best they can be which lead to them being heroic.

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