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"Veigar is simply,balanced?"

Literal Hitler··22 votes·2,229 views

When I think of Veigar ,I cannot think of any redeeming qualities of the new rework which gives him an edge over the competition,everyone else who comes to lane in the current meta game has some level of "unfairness" even if they are balanced(like viktor).

What exactly is the issue with the new veigar?After the removal of DFG(hardest scaling item for him) he was left in a spot where he was "decent" because of his instant stun,the only redeeming quality of his kit bar his ult.

After he got "nerfs" without compensation,he was guttered,then later on added some new abilities yada yada and here we are today,a sub par mid laner who tries his hardest for his opponents to out play themselves.

Yes,this is why veigar is so bad,because he requires his opponents to basically out play themselves.

But of course this is the 1v1 match up,in a team setting,the only way your stun is going to land is if they are running away and happen to be snagged by a highly telegraphed move,or are forced into it via some sort of immobilization or pressure move.

Veigar really lacks anything in his kit that you can just say "wow thats totally unfair,but at least its only one ability"

>>you might say,well,his ults pretty good,his stuns pretty good when it lands,he can stack AP which has synergy with deathcap.

but then....thats it...

Annie .

Just imagine if Annie didnt have access to an instant AoE stun,her w/r would surely gutter if she received no compensatory buffs to accompany this drastic switch in her playstyle.

Tl;Dr:I feel like Riot could have done alot better with one of my favorite champions.

44 Comments

lB2kGRlc8y8 votes

I'm hoping a red responds to this, Veigar's gutting was like a 30% complete side project that was pushed onto him because he oppressed riot's enforced champ comp for bottom lane. I don't think his Q is underpowered, it's just that it can no longer be used reliably in lane to harass without also walking into the line of fire of the enemy's skillshots, and his E can no longer peel for him, as his life span is shorter than the ability's delay. The other issue it brings up is his W was completely reliant on the stun, and the cage is way too larger for the enemy to not be able to dodge the meteor, so Veigar's only reliable skill is his ultimate, which was also nerfed. Riot needs to stop pushing these half-assed reworks onto champions that aren't even oppressive. Veigar was easy to handle, he only ever instagibbed a person when they had no tenacity or built 100% ap items. A bashees veil pretty much made him a nonfactor, and merc treads would ensure he never landed a meteor unless his E was full rank, or he precasted the ability.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

technically rank 3 into stun* however its quite difficult to put the stun and immediately mouse over and cast meteor at nearly the same time, but 3 was possible, 4 or 5 was realistic.

and dont forget the mid zhonyas, where it would put veigars ult on CD if it was still in travel time.

Rrett3 votes

Yup, veigars late game precompensation was sub par because everyone had banshees.

Veigars mid game was the best and late game the worst because of this. The best play style for veigar was one with extremely high aggresiveness, and a lot of roaming, mainly focusing on catching a member of the enemy team and just forcing a 4 v 5.

With the E change making it unreliable as all hell, that completely gutted his optimal playstyle, the playstyle all the truely good veigar players used is no more.

Now, his worst play style, the farming Q one, is the only play style and his late game is his best game and early game his worst. They changed so many things about veigars playstyle inadvertently without giving 2 shits.

Can confirm, compensation was a poorly done rework without any fucks given.

Differential1 votes

as a veigar main, You hit the head of the nail.

Poske3 votes

Mainly Syndra outclasses veigar Annie as you mentioned probably outclasses him Viktor outclasses veigar

air tiger1 votes

Idk

Annie can cheese Veigar with that targeted stun, but in general.. I can farm until I have enough for chalice, come back to lane with more mana regen and more ap (from stacking) and from there it's snowball city. Those champs don't faze me when I play Veigar.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=air tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uz2t8joO,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-08-13T15:00:34.546+0000)

Idk

Annie can cheese Veigar with that targeted stun, but in general.. I can farm until I have enough for chalice, come back to lane with more mana regen and more ap (from stacking) and from there it's snowball city. Those champs don't faze me when I play Veigar.

He said she outclasses him, not beats him in 1v1s. You can be a better champion than someone without being good at dueling them.

air tiger1 votes

I guess I just dont understand how those immobile mages outclass Veigar, can anyone explain it to me? I am honestly asking.

My take on it is that vei's stun is at a greater range than any of theirs, except syndra who's is in a line and is completely avoidable (and feels like it's glitched to miss sometimes when it shouldn't), and his ult is huge against them.

What does outclass mean in this scenario? thanks

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=air tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uz2t8joO,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-13T23:09:44.926+0000)

I guess I just dont understand how those immobile mages outclass Veigar, can anyone explain it to me? I am honestly asking.

My take on it is that vei's stun is at a greater range than any of theirs, except syndra who's is in a line and is completely avoidable (and feels like it's glitched to miss sometimes when it shouldn't), and his ult is huge against them.

What does outclass mean in this scenario? thanks

What they mean is that they do Veigar's job but better. Veigar's job is to stun people and nuke them, which is very similar to the core job of Annie and Syndra.

When it comes to single-target bursting, Syndra is better. Her stun is avoidable but so is Veigar's - Syndra's is a lot more reliable. She has a huge missile speed on her stun which means if she aims it well, it's very difficult to avoid. The stun doesn't last as long as Veigar's but she has a slow to follow up with, so can keep people in position nonetheless. Her stun is much more reliable to use as self-defense than Veigar's, she has more utility than Veigar due to having both a stun AND a slow, she spreads a lot more AOE damage around a team fight and her ultimate even has longer range than his, allowing her to nuke with greater safety. Really the only thing Veigar does better than her is one-shot enemy APCs, but she does more than a good enough job of this herself.

Annie's not as good at single-target bursting, but she's a LOT better at stunning people than Veigar is and while he will do better at killing one person, Annie can drop the majority of a team from 100-20 in an instant. Annie's stuns are either targeted or instant, so virtually impossible to miss, and that means she has a pretty safe laning phase and much better initiation. And like Syndra, she just does so much more damage in team fights. She's safer, much better at picking people off alone and a stronger team fighter.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uz2t8joO,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-08-13T11:41:27.422+0000)

Mainly Syndra outclasses veigar Annie as you mentioned probably outclasses him Viktor outclasses veigar

It says a lot about how bad Veigar is that Syndra outclasses him despite being in a terrible spot herself.

Poske1 votes

As Syndra main she is in good spot. People only call her weak because of her level 1-2 q damage

TotalJerk1 votes

No, people call Syndra weak because she's a buggy fucking mess.

Poske1 votes

No she is not

There are no syndra buggs

There is only that awkward e flash which is sort of wierd but thats about it

Zelnorack3 votes

Veigar was one thing. Reliable.

Reliable damage, reliable stun, reliable burst, reliable suitability, reliable counter-play, reliable squishyness, reliable play-patterns.

If you survived lane against Veigar, you lost. If you survived lane AS Veigar, you won. If you stomped Veigar, you won. If you stomped as Veigar, you can kill 3/5 reliably.

He had short ranges, massive power, and no mobility outside of flash.. there was no reason to gut him as they did. His Q didn't need to be changed, his W was always horrible alone, his E brought the kit together but now is the reason it falls apart, and his R was fantastic. Now it's pretty meh.

For those not in the know, they lowered his Q cooldown, raised the range, and made it a skill-shot that penetrates one target. W has a shorter cooldown? It's not noticable. E has or had a 3/4 second delay which I think they changed up.. I'm not sure I quit for a few months after the rework. R does less damage (1.2 AP ratio to 1.0)

What was fun about Veigar? His massive mana costs, long cooldowns, massive damage, and short range. It was REALLY FUN to play the most dangerous game. Your best ranged ability was.. I think 675 range with a 375 ring that had half sticking past the 675.. so around 900 range. The stun was his best range ability and it spelled certain doom if they couldn't dodge it's initial .25 cast time. Or it meant you could get that cannon minion with your Q without Zed/Ahri/Anyone else instantly killing you.

It was fun to do quick math. Hmm.. I have 800 AP and my opponent has 400. I will deal 500+960+320 magic damage before resistances. Let's get that kill. Oh shit Udyr/Yi/Shyvana is ganking me, I better lay down my stun to run away. It's gonna be another 20 seconds till I can try again. Better ward up so I don't get caught out. I burned their jungler's ghost, so that's around 5 minutes of not having to worry about someone coming at me at mach 10.

Even better is seeing if you can survive a fight with an ADC. By that I mean RQ and kill them. Or see if they get those lucky crits and kill you instantly because most ADC's only get 40-50% crit nowadays. item 3031, item 3046 or item 3087 . Depending on runes they might only have 45%. Maybe have 50%.

They destroyed Veigar. Now Mordekaiser is in their crosshairs. I'm sorry for their loss. item 3151

Only Play Darius2 votes

I like your username.

As a Nasus it speaks to me.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

The only ability I feel like is unfair is his ultimate. If your AP without a lot of magic resist or multiple shields, you get one-shotted and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it at all. He just presses R and you die instantly unless for some reason our Ahri or Cassiopeia decided they wanted to be tanks instead, they just get one shotted by him. But then again, his ultimate is probably the only thing that's necessarily strong in his kit.

Thryale2 votes

all you have to do is buy a banshees and laugh at how veigar has absolutely no relevancy to that match anymore. If you can get your whole team to buy banshee's, even better, veigar might as well be afk for all he can contribute at that point.

Vekkna1 votes

Except it's not hard at all to have any person on your team use any magic damage skill to break the shield. If you have an AP tank on your team, the shield may as well not exist.

Thryale1 votes

you are aware that ashe's frost shot pops banshee's too?

and it's not a matter of whether or not the shield can be popped easily or not, it's about the tension an unpopped shield creates for the veigar player. He now needs to rely on his team even more then he already does before he is allowed to do anything. Thus exacerbating his complete lack of agency with his current kit.

TotalJerk2 votes

It's amazing how every time someone provides a counter-point to the "Veigar was gutted" argument, people slightly shift the goalposts.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

What counterargument are you speaking of? If increased AP Yield is what you're talking about consider that its completely dependent on lining up double kills with auto attacks, which voids the safety the increased range gave him. As a person who played passive ap-farming veigar before the poorly done rework, I can say that the amount of AP yield didn't even increase. Ap gained from hero kills is lower due to the fact that only lobotomy patients get hit by his abilities, and I was able to kill every creep in a wave with old baleful, and the amount of creeps per wave never increased. His damage was nerfed across the boards so what counterargument is floating around that I haven't seen?

TotalJerk1 votes

{quoted}

If increased AP Yield is what you're talking about consider that its completely dependent on lining up double kills with auto attacks

It's really not that hard compared to how difficult it is for a lot of other champions to farm efficiently.

the amount of creeps per wave never increased.

The game spawns about 12 minions per minute. To successfully hit EVERY minion you'd have to either have Q at rank 4 or 40% CDR. Disregarding mana or the fact that this scenario is perfect CS. Sure the amount of creeps per wave never increased, but there was no way you could have possibly been farming Q perfectly. Pros can't even get that kind of CS using all of their abilities.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

No, not unitl i got it ranked up and cd capped, which having 20% cdr out the gate and needing only 1 item to cap it made easy. It is impossible to get perfect cs unitl those 2 quotas are met, but after they are, the end goal was incredibly easy to pull off. Now the end rank of Baleful has a second more CD and aside from the ranged minions, the secondary hit more often than not cleaves a minions to 5% and the creeps pick it off. My point is that since Veigar's been forced into the ap-farm tactic by having all semblance of reliability removed from him, that the values of AP farmed don't even exceed that of a farm Veigar from before his nerf. If CS is what his strong point is, its countered by his his ability to farm ap, as doing so grants him more bonus than just dropping meteors on entire waves and stealing jungle creeps. The fact that people say "increased AP yield" was the compensation for shitting on the rest of his kit when the yield wasn't actually increased just goes to show that riot didn't care enough to compensate him for their garbage rework.

Posui Gart1 votes

Make his Q cheaper a bit and increase his E duration. Or just make his passive useful for more than "before first back", something like "+1% AP per Veigar's level". Or buff his ranges. Or give him some actual AOE that can hit 2-3 enemies in a single cast in a teamfight. Or nerf his ult damage for 20%, but make it instant true damage that ignores every shield, spell negation, Yasuo's Windwall, Braum's Unbreakable, and cannot be dodged by any untargetability and invulnerability. So if enemy Fizz has low hp-you ult him and he dies, not just evades that PRIMORDIAL BURST WITH 2K DAMAGE with jumping on his pole.

Hard Penetrator1 votes

I'm trying to ask Rioter if W could land quicker the closer it was to veigar would be a good change but no luck so far. I mean it would help veigar to defend himself or at least deal high amount of dmg before going down. It also would enable him quick kills with flash while putting himself in danger.

Ipols1 votes

Stop talking about Veigar if people realize he's 2 times stronger since the "rework" they'll ban him.

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

Stop talking about Veigar if people realize he's 2 times stronger since the "rework" they'll ban him.

Veigar is not strong or stronger than before the rework. And his shitty reliability would make him fully unable to capitalize on it if he was the slightliest stronger anyway.

Ipols1 votes

At low elo he became OP Q-> straigh buff, a ranged skillshot with a huge range is far better than a target Q that makes you die because you have to go too near to them. Also people dodge 1 Q every 3 you shoot them. Just don't be drunk while using it.

W-> same as before.

E-> same as before, 9/10 walk into it so delay or not nothing changed.

R-> same(maybe? I don't remember).

Basically you can be way safer both farming and teamfighting for free.

Count Zubat1 votes

If Riot thinks that Veigar's insta stun was toxic, then that means that the only chance for Veigar to be decent and reliable again is (unfortunately) complete rework.

ArkenStorm1 votes

I think that cast time on w and e should be removed and reduce w delay to 1.0 seconds, and cast time on w and e should be removed. he literally is so close to balanced, those would make him pretty darn balanced

FakeGravity1 votes

I think instead of making veigar be strong for a stunning make him strong for trapping make it so if W falls inside e it has no delay and make Q that pass the e walls pass through 3 targets instead of two

Vekkna1 votes

As a Zyra player, Veigar still feels super cheap. Running around at 375 MS ends in a lot of stuns and dying instantly. Maybe in the League of Mobility Veigar players are having a rough time of it? Frankly, I don't see why 1-shotting people ought to be reliable or expected from a playerbase.

You guys want a shorter delay on a basic ability AOE stun with a 12-16 sec CD. Maybe I'm just salty about having the same delay on an Ulti with a 75 sec CD just to get a knockup with a shorter duration and no guarantee of an enemy being vaporized.

It could be worse.

Thryale1 votes

at least the damage on your ult is instant, so you've got that going for ya.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I agree, everyone is complaining about Veigar but look at Zyra for example.

Everything has a colossal mana cost, every thing has 0 reliability, she's still buggy, and her passive is trash.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

As a Zyra player, Veigar still feels super cheap. Running around at 375 MS ends in a lot of stuns and dying instantly. Maybe in the League of Mobility Veigar players are having a rough time of it? Frankly, I don't see why 1-shotting people ought to be reliable or expected from a playerbase.

You guys want a shorter delay on a basic ability AOE stun with a 12-16 sec CD. Maybe I'm just salty about having the same delay on an Ulti with a 75 sec CD just to get a knockup with a shorter duration and no guarantee of an enemy being vaporized.

It could be worse.

I have to question how well you know either Veigar or Zyra to think the delay on Stranglethorns is anywhere near as big a handicap as the delay on Event Horizon. Like, really. It requires only a basic knowledge of both champions to know that Zyra's delay is infinitely less crippling to her than Veigar's is.

Stranglethorns:

  • Hits everyone inside a giant circle
  • Does damage before the delay ends
  • Is not required for the rest of her kit to function, is only an amplifier
  • Is not Zyra's only means of peel - her kit has a snare and slows on basic, easily landed abilities
  • Can be set up by her other abilities - Grasping Roots into Stranglethorns is essentially guaranteed chain CC
  • Will likely hit people even without setup if it's well-placed/used in a team fight scenario

Event Horizon:

  • Hits people on a tiny ring at the edge of a moderately sized circle
  • Does no damage
  • Is a complete necessity to land for his W to hit and is often the only thing that allows him to get in range for his ult without dying
  • Has no abilities that will set it up - Veigar must wait for allies with CC to allow him to land his stun
  • If not set up will only hit the slowest of targets with the poorest of reaction times
  • Is the only utility/self-defense Veigar has

Like seriously. I can understand a Zyra player feeling bad against Veigar for sure because you're so ridiculously slow, but as someone who could not care less for Veigar but loves Zyra, I have to say that complaining about the delay on Stranglethorns in comparison to the delay on Event Horizon is ridiculous. Veigar wishes he had the ways to set up Event Horizon that Zyra has for Stranglethorns, and he also wishes that he was as unreliant on Event Horizon as Zyra is her ultimate. You really can't complain about the delay on Zyra's ult until they change one of her abilities so that it cannot under any circumstance land unless she's knocked them up.

Vekkna1 votes

The problem with Veigar is that his kit has to be tuned around answering the question of "how easy should it be to vaporize an enemy?" I think Riot's answer is that it shouldn't be super easy, and every Veigar player thinks they're wrong about that.

I think your Zyra analysis is flawed since reliably landing the Stranglethorn knockup is dependent on first landing a skillshot root with a longer traveltime than the delay on Veigar's prison. You're trying to convince me that it's easier to land a skillshot cc, ulti combo on Zyra than to land a single massive aoe cc with a shorter delay than either Zyra's E or R. I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion, even just comparing the E travel time to the prison delay.

In any event, compare the payoff: a 1-second aoe knockup with a 2 second delay versus a 2.5 second aoe stun with a .5 second delay. Even Zyra's E compared to Veigar's has a longer delay, smaller area, and shorter duration at every single level.

And again, considering that the payoff of catching anyone in a fairly large area after a .5 sec delay is sending them to respawn, I hardly think there's anything to whine about.

On a saltier note, it adds insult to injury that Veigar's ulti scales better with MY ap than my own ulti does. And that I have to spend my first 900 gold to buy Veigar's passive.

Thryale1 votes

In all honesty, I can tolerate the changes to his E, bad as they may be, but all I want is just to have my point and click Q back. T_T

Catastrop1 votes

{quoted}

In all honesty, I can tolerate the changes to his E, bad as they may be, but all I want is just to have my point and click Q back. T_T

I actually like his new Q....am I weird?

wugafuga1 votes

{quoted}

I actually like his new Q....am I weird?

I like his q too and truly if they just changed his e back im pretty sure there would be no one posting any threads about him. cause like the comments have said in the threads there was alot of counter measures to make veigar useless. The only way to make me, who loved veigar, happy is to give back that e or just complete rework cause im tired of seeing veigar in this sorry state and have the excuse riot made that stated he has been buffed cause of the removal of dfg.

Thryale1 votes

not really. Most ppl that generally have better reflexes enjoy skill shots more. I prefer a slower more methodical playstyle, and vastly prefer reliability over range.

The core reason I played old veigar despite there being many equally good, if not better, choices to him was because I valued the reliability he brought to the table. Once mastered he was an extremely reliable champ that would do exactly what you wanted when you wanted it. But his 'compensation' completely removed any and all semblance of reliability from his kit, and that is why I find him unplayable now. The core reason I would pick him over anyone else is now gone.

RangoTangoGanko1 votes

Veigar is late game Nasus is late game they are meant to be late game damage carry's with one shot potentials with more than one ability or low enough cdr to do so to everyone.

Karn Bishop1 votes

Veigar is the only champion i Will mid against as eve, i know that i will 100% win the match up and be able to free farm all day long, go invisible to gank bot lane and if he follows just turn around and kill him off.

SwapShadows1 votes

no his new Q is terrible, it's unreliable and ruined his old playstyle of being a bully.

only noob veigars farmed in lane, real veigar players got kills and roamed and snowballed.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I honestly like the new Veigar and I think people's issues with his largely stem from trying to play him like old Veigar where you instastun someone and then walk up and 100-0 them. And you can still do that, but I much prefer him as a backline control mage, firing a constant barrage of Q's and W's, throwing down stun fields in the middle of a teamfights to zone enemies, and use my ult to delete anyone who does not respect that zone. All of your skills do a massive amount of damage and you can easily farm up 7+ AP per minute if you manage waves properly. I'm consistently getting Athenes, Deathcap and 600+ AP by around 25 minutes; I've never seen old Veigar do that.

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