What exactly do you imagine when you think of a "hard tank"?

Ralanr·Jul 24, 2017·26 votes·2,889 views

I'm curious as to what people think of when they ask for a difficult tank. What exactly would you do to a tank's playstyle to make it a more challenging champion to play?

178 Comments

Beas7ieJul 24, 201732 votes

A vehicle on tracks that is heavily armored and has a big cannon with several smaller guns. It usually has a crew of between 3 and 5 people.

MelledoneusJul 24, 201721 votes

Zac Used to require accuracy and knowledge on missile speeds. Thresh Requires precision and good improvising skills. Sion Need to land telegraphed abilities and how to overcome a squishy early game. Shen Must use zone control to a whole new level, and maintain constant map awareness post-6. Rammus Must plan route of attack carefully and open up a way to the enemy backline, or at least find a way to distract the front line to allow your team to collapse. Poppy Must have good reaction time to utilize W properly, since most dashes are fast. Also a good eye for potential stuns. Maokai Bush control with saplings, proper positioning of ult. Braum Know what skills to use when, E and R especially. Powerful tools, but huge downtimes punish reckless use.

Whoever said tanks do not have depth and require little skill to play obviously does not play them like we tank players do.

CowseedJul 24, 20172 votes

Usually when I play poppy I use W as a prediction not a reaction :/.....

But that's just me though :D

rtbf221651412Jul 25, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Requires precision and good improvising skills.

Thresh requires precision? Have you seen the hitbox on his hook?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrbJSmsXAvo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqzJJr19aj8

DoodlzzzJul 25, 20175 votes

lol

MelledoneusJul 25, 20171 votes

It's a double-edged sword. That hook hitbox applies to minions, too, especially in lane where it most counts.

rtbf221651412Jul 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's a double-edged sword. That hook hitbox applies to minions, too.

Did you forget to click the second link where it should have hit a minion but hit Jinx miles away?

It's literally 30 total seconds in the video.

hi hi its zy zyJul 25, 20173 votes

people think thresh is a lot harder than he really is and it's honestly kinda funny

ForFoxSakesJul 24, 201719 votes

Taric as hard as it gets

TimX24968BJul 24, 20176 votes

Even harder Braum

PsyrikJul 24, 20177 votes

any male champion that builds hp, armor, and magic resist, while standing beside Ahri

Trashy McGarbageJul 24, 20176 votes

As a tank player Sion comes to mind. You have to land skill shots, and cancel channels early to achieve your maximum cc potential. If you land everything on Sion you're a nightmare, but if you whiff everything you're useless.

DarkSunSovereignJul 24, 20175 votes

Malphite . He's rock solid, so pretty hard.

OHminusJul 25, 20174 votes

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wvLpQiaKIYw/maxresdefault.jpg

Fairly hard to maneuver lul

SmelpJul 24, 20173 votes

Interesting point, it's hard to remain difficult when you can rely on stats to forgive your mistakes. For example, a champion like Maokai has a kit that would be "all in" however the application of it isn't punishing, just limited to the teams response. Nautilus Has the same concept but his lack of sustain and his one-off ult makes it where situations where Maokai could just w in, aren't as applicable.

I suppose it's completely up to your interpretation as to what is hard; all champs have unique play styles and strengths. Tanks are just seen as more forgiving in their mistakes as a Jhin wouldn't be.

RalanrJul 24, 201717 votes

I think we're making the mistake in assuming that all mistakes must lead to death. Judging it by that, obviously tanks will be seen as less skillful.

I think a mistake on a tank is improper use of their CC. Like Nautilus hooks the enemy tank instead of the enemy adc, which could be a lot more detrimental to the team than him getting caught out.

A bad adc will mainly endanger himself. A bad tank will endanger their team.

SkorchJul 24, 20171 votes

I mean if an ADC gets caught out doesnt that mean you are down an ADC and thus endangering your team. Or are you talking about strictly avoiding death?

RalanrJul 24, 20172 votes

If the adc really is the only damage source I guess. But I've seen teamfights without ADCs on one side that still has most members survive because of their frontline. Without a frontline teams fall apart faster.

ADCs are the best at taking towers, but there are still at least two other roles that can provide damage in teamfights. It's a dumb idea to put all your eggs in one basket.

SkorchJul 24, 20171 votes

But from that prospective if you have 2 or more tanks does that make 1 tank dying an endangerment to your team.

Not trying to detract from your point, just reapplying your wording.

RalanrJul 24, 20172 votes

It makes that tank dying less detrimental, though the more tanks you have the less damage your team provides. If you're relying on two tanks to peel you and one dies before the fight then you've lost a lot of safety.

We also have situations where the tank is the last survivor against the enemy team. Since tanks cannot 1v5 like people stupidly wish they could (unless they're really ahead) then the tank can't do anything in the fight without his team.

Ideally all classes are important with strengths and weaknesses that balance off each other. Balance itself is a constant struggle for this though.

PennsJul 24, 20173 votes

one that doesnt buy sunfire cape and right click kill me when he is ahead hehe

RalanrJul 24, 201741 votes

I mean, sunfire cape barely does any damage to champions anymore unless you're hilariously low.

PennsJul 24, 20173 votes

https://puu.sh/wRSlW/f89bfd77ba.webm Who needs Q? :( item 3071 item 3047 item 1036 vs item 3068 item 3077 item 1055 , around 550 damage from sunfire :(

it was at this moment i stopped leveling my kayn smurf until runes and masteries get reworked lul

RalanrJul 24, 201712 votes

How long exactly were you fighting this champion to take 550 damage from sunfire on top of the damage from Tiamat?

PennsJul 24, 20174 votes

I mean I fight him as long as it takes to kill me as anti-tank champ with black cleaver but i died to sunfire and right click :( hehe

RalanrJul 24, 20174 votes

Were you Rhaast?

Sorry but I can't open your link so i don't actually know your data.

Sahn UzalJul 24, 201713 votes

He fought a Sion that was 2 levels up on him.

RalanrJul 24, 201710 votes

Ah. Well Sion with some AD hits hard due to his scalings. But I honestly doubt Sion just won by right clicking.

Unless he was stupid behind in comparison to Sion.

Sahn UzalJul 24, 201716 votes

He used all his spells whenever they were up, so he couldn't burst the Soul Furnace shield when Sion used it.

Neither played the scenario very well, but Sion actually had damage because of his items and had a level advantage so he won.

PennsJul 24, 20172 votes

so sion never uses his like 300 hp shield = i can never use my low cd spells because i need to burst it and he auto wins? hehe

RalanrJul 24, 20179 votes

If you don't burst Sion's shield then you are punished for it. It's not an auto win, it's just a condition you failed to meet.

PennsJul 24, 20171 votes

its an auto win if he never uses it so im not allowed to use my spells tho and i got hit by his e damage once lel

RalanrJul 24, 20178 votes

Why exactly is his shield preventing you from using your spells?

Spells can be used to burst the shield.

Sahn UzalJul 24, 201714 votes

...

You didn't have Fervor. Why exactly are you making an argument here again? Sion had a Tiamat, he got a lot of value out of that.

Sunfire was the last of your issues here. You should ask yourself why you were dumb enough to try and fight him at all in the given circumstances.

RalanrJul 24, 20176 votes

{quoted}

He didnt have grasp or thunderlords either.

Why did I fight him? 1) People keep saying Sion has a lot of counterplay so I tried to outplay him but I guess.. xd And 2) Im Rhaast, Im supposed to be 1-3 levels stronger than others because my early as Kayn is garbage, especially against tanks.

What the hell makes you think that?

Sahn UzalJul 24, 20178 votes

Why did I fight him? 1) People keep saying Sion has a lot of counterplay so I tried to outplay him but I guess.. xd

Jesus fucking christ he does have a lot of counterplay, but if it's ahead enough a bloody Taric would be killing you. You really aren't making yourself look smarter here.

And 2) Im Rhaast, Im supposed to be 1-3 levels stronger than others because my early as Kayn is garbage, especially against tanks.

Litterally what? ''Me being Rhaast should make up for me being 3 fucking levels behind'' How the fuck did you end up thinking that makes any fucking sense at all? Yes, Rhaast is a strong powespike, and will likely give you an edge if you're fighting another champion on equal ground. But nowhere near 3 fucking levels worth of strength

GaliöJul 24, 20172 votes

Why would you want a difficult to play tank. If a tank of more difficult usually easier ones would be played. Since they all offer similar shit.

RalanrJul 24, 20178 votes

Because difficult can be fun.

GaliöJul 24, 20172 votes

League isn't about fun, it's about being effective to win.

RalanrJul 24, 201712 votes

League isn't all ranked and not everyone wants to go pro.

The Yetii RiderJul 24, 20171 votes

A champion with no scaling. 0% scaling for health, AD or AP. A tank that deals next to no damage, to minions or to champions. When the tank is completely reliant on his team to deal all of the damage, he must time his initiation and CC perfectly, he must maximize their immobility while allowing the allied team to run free. Even a single missed ability would lose a fight if 1 of your 5 champs had max 500 damage pre-mitigation to throw out.

RalanrJul 24, 20173 votes

This seems way too extreme.

The Yetii RiderJul 24, 20171 votes

It's perfect. I don't want to deal damage as a tank. I want to lock everyone down. I don't want to farm or get harassed as a tank.

Riot needs to make a brand new vanguard/warden that CANNOT lane, just to put the final nail in this top lane tank coffin. Once people get over the idea that tanks can still go top then we can have a real tank champion who just deals no damage and focuses on crowd control, positioning, and proper support instead.

RalanrJul 24, 20172 votes

That tank couldn't even jungle, it'd be too bound to the support role and stuck with a support budget.

There's nothing wrong with pure support tanks, but that shouldn't remove diversity in tank positions.

The Yetii RiderJul 24, 20172 votes

Sure it could. Get a hard leash, auto with Machete, back for Talisman asap and then rush Bami's Cinder. After that, Cinderhulk does all the work.

I'm against the concept of CSing in general, which is one of the reasons I main jungle. It is not a concept I feel has aged well at all and if the recent tank update has taught us anything it is that requiring every champion outside the support lane to have a minimum amount of damage just to be able to acquire gold doesn't fit. There are some classes and champions that simply don't need damage.

Iota ThetaJul 25, 20171 votes

Honest question, but what is your issue with top lane tanks, since you want the entire potential to die and have tanks shoved into only the support role?

As far as your idea for a "hard tank" goes, it raises some questions from me: What would be the purpose of picking that tank over others?

How strong would his CC and durabilty be to make up for having no damage or the fact that one missed skill would lose a fight?

Since he has no damage at all, how low would is CDs be? Mana-hungry?

And then, what motivation would he have to build tank? Couldn't he just build like an ADC and make his autos stronger while having massive CC and durabilty?

The Yetii RiderJul 25, 20171 votes

My problem with top lane tanks is that item 3751 exists. This item gives tanks 20% bonus health on top of their itemization. As long as it is in the game, tanks will not be balanced across multiple roles. Either a tank will have enough stats from basic tank items if he goes top lane, in which case he will have 20% too much health if he jungles with Cinderhulk, or the tank will have good health from items with Cinderhulk, in which case he is a squishy mess up in top lane. If you don't understand this basic premise I don't know what else to tell you. If tanks are being balanced around the % health amp from Cinderhulk, they need to all jungle. If they're not being balanced around the % health amp from Cinderhulk then every tank is going to end up too durable when other items get changed to help them out.

His CC would need to be fantastic. I'm thinking like a 3 second snare, maybe a 1 second knock up, a 1 second stun and an 80% slow.

His CDs would be pretty low, enough to where if he plays it correctly he can lock someone down for the entire fight, but he needs to hit every skill shot.

All tanks should be mana hungry. That increases their dependency on items like Frozen Heart.

His motivation for building tank would be that he is a melee champion with little mobility. He wouldn't be able to auto very often at all. His durability could be % bonus armor and MR like other tanks to force him to build tank.

Iota ThetaJul 25, 20171 votes

Ahh. Now I see why you don't like them (although you showed Bami's Cinder, which threw me off at first). So you'd be less against it if it wasn't for Cinderhulk's 20% bonus health? I can support that, although they might need something in exchange.

Depending on how he's set up, might need a little wiggle room of he misses..or happens to get stunned. From how it sounds, almost anything that would stop him, like a stun or even a silence would result in a lost teamfight, which would feel almost binary, at least in my mind. He engaged? Stun him and we win.

I agree on mana hungry, although some currently feel more so than others (poor malphite with his Q). Part of me almost wishes for a tear -> defense item, but i can see that as tough to balance.

So melee, but low enough stats to force him into armour? Am i understanding that right?

The Yetii RiderJul 25, 20171 votes

I don't think there should be ANY tanks that aren't melee (Gnar was a mistake, Thresh needs his range cut. There's no reason for him to have 425 range these days, just cut it to 125 and let him use Relic Shield and Knight's Vow the way he should)

Iota ThetaJul 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uy6NynIT,comment-id=0022000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-25T20:41:10.651+0000)

I don't think there should be ANY tanks that aren't melee (Gnar was a mistake, Thresh needs his range cut. There's no reason for him to have 425 range these days, just cut it to 125 and let him use Relic Shield and Knight's Vow the way he should)

I completely agree (ended up in a similar discussion with people on swtor who wanted ranged tanks and I said they're balance issues).