The biggest problem with Marksmen and Tanks right now...

FCJAAAAGOOOO··5 votes·3,570 views

is that no one would ever want two Marksmen or Tanks on their team. However, there's plenty of reason for 2+ of literally every other class on the same team:

2 Mages: 2 mages bot (duh); also great AoE if their team can set up for them 2 Fighters/Bruisers: means their team has a frontline 2 Melee Hypercarries: play to lategame; they win moreso than just about any 2 marksmen 2 Enchanters: amazing siege/disengage 2 Hookers: hooks for dayyysssssss 2 Juggernauts: one can splitpush while the other protects the rest of their team.

However if you have 2 marksmen you have two squishy champions that offer little/no peel, OK dps but at least can dps while someone else is tanking for them...? And tanks are supposed to do that I guess? Who can actually take damage in season 8~9 again?

These two classes have been all but destroyed over the past two seasons. Everyone does what they do but better now except for their small niches in having the most ranged dps/physical poke and CC.

Riot should at least let teams know like Overwatch does if a team has too many tanks or marksmen, or way too many of any other role for that matter. It is detrimental to just about every team if they have 2+ marksmen/tanks right now and newer players deserve to know that as well as people that just want to try out a champion.

21 Comments

IcyPepper2 votes

2 Hookers: hooks for dayyysssssss

And blackjack.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Do you not remember when it was 3 or 4 tanks a team. I personally think that tanks and marskman are underpowered, but barely. They are just on the cusp of being in a good spot, but I'm afraid Riot is going to massively buff them and make both classes OP again. Marksman need better early itemization that people don't hate like stupid item 3095 and Tanks honestly just need maybe some nerfs on champion that have too high of true damage. Not items or runes, but champions like Camille with 1k true damage on her Q and things like that.

FCJAAAAGOOOO1 votes

Chill I'm not saying that meta was a good thing either lol

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Do you not remember when it was 3 or 4 tanks a team. I personally think that tanks and marskman are underpowered, but barely. They are just on the cusp of being in a good spot, but I'm afraid Riot is going to massively buff them and make both classes OP again. Marksman need better early itemization that people don't hate like stupid item 3095 and Tanks honestly just need maybe some nerfs on champion that have too high of true damage. Not items or runes, but champions like Camille with 1k true damage on her Q and things like that.

I dunno about "barely". When Lucian can kill a Leona with >200 armor in under 4 seconds, something is horribly wrong.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Certain marksman are exceptions to the rule and alone without being under CC and fed and levels up on the Leona I don't see that much of an issue. Leona is a support that is usually under leveled and underfarmed so a Marksman (which kill tanks the most effectively) that was probably fed or at the very least up exp and gold should destroy her, but I would need more context.

Zero Shingetsu2 votes

{quoted}

Certain marksman are exceptions to the rule and alone without being under CC and fed and levels up on the Leona I don't see that much of an issue. Leona is a support that is usually under leveled and underfarmed so a Marksman (which kill tanks the most effectively) that was probably fed or at the very least up exp and gold should destroy her, but I would need more context.

Yeah, he had a full build. Yeah, he was up two levels (which is not substantial). But less than four seconds against a tank? A marksman with lifesteal and zero armor would've lasted longer.

Don't you think it's just a little crazy that marksmen are supposed to melt tanks? Marksmen are the easiest role to play. The hardest part of your game is farming. A marksman's goal has traditionally been "push lanes, take objectives, smash squishies when you get the chance". In teamfights, their targets were mages because they can deal damage even while silenced, and mages silence. When did they become tankbusters?

Mages are the ones that are supposed to be able to break tanks, and even then it should take closer to 6-7 seconds minumum if the tank has resistances. It's burst damage with rending effects and damage over time that burns through defenses, not basic attacks. if Riot's design is "Marksman > Tank", they've got this extremely backwards... Imagine an MMO where a boss' normal attacks destroyed a tank in under 20 seconds...

Frosted Tips3 votes

Yeah, he had a full build. Yeah, he was up two levels (which is not substantial). But less than four seconds against a tank? A marksman with lifesteal and zero armor would've lasted longer.

The marksman would not have lasted longer. That is an over exaggeration.

Don't you think it's just a little crazy that marksmen are supposed to melt tanks? Marksmen are the easiest role to play. The hardest part of your game is farming. A marksman's goal has traditionally been "push lanes, take objectives, smash squishies when you get the chance". In teamfights, their targets were mages because they can deal damage even while silenced, and mages silence. When did they become tankbusters?

No, because marksman also die if they get hit by one CC. Yes dealing damage is easy, but not dying while using basic attacks is not. Positioning as a Marksman is hard and I don't think it is easy to say which role is the easiest. Marksman used to smash squishies because of how the old IE worked. It didn't help just against killing tanks it also allowed marksmen to one shot squishies and that is why it was changed. Marksmans targets where the highest dps champion that was safe to reach which a lot of the time was the tank because no one else was safe to reach. They have always been the best tank busters.

Mages are the ones that are supposed to be able to break tanks, and even then it should take closer to 6-7 seconds minumum if the tank has resistances. It's burst damage with rending effects and damage over time that burns through defenses, not basic attacks. if Riot's design is "Marksman > Tank", they've got this extremely backwards... Imagine an MMO where a boss' normal attacks destroyed a tank in under 20 seconds...

No mages are burst. Burst beats DPS, and DPS beats Tanks, and Tanks beat Burst. Basic attacks at high speed is DPS and rotating abilities every 6 seconds is burst. DPS(Marksman) kill tanks not Burst(Mages). PvE does not equal PvP. A boss is better than all players in damage and tankyness.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

The marksman would not have lasted longer. That is an over exaggeration.

Is it? Because the marksman duels in my games tend to last 5-7 seconds, depending on how committed each is to stand and trade.

No, because marksman also die if they get hit by one CC. Yes dealing damage is easy, but not dying while using basic attacks is not. Positioning as a Marksman is hard and I don't think it is easy to say which role is the easiest. Marksman used to smash squishies because of how the old IE worked. It didn't help just against killing tanks it also allowed marksmen to one shot squishies and that is why it was changed. Marksmans targets where the highest dps champion that was safe to reach which a lot of the time was the tank because no one else was safe to reach. They have always been the best tank busters.

No mages are burst. Burst beats DPS, and DPS beats Tanks, and Tanks beat Burst. Basic attacks at high speed is DPS and rotating abilities every 6 seconds is burst. DPS(Marksman) kill tanks not Burst(Mages). PvE does not equal PvP. A boss is better than all players in damage and tankyness.

Then put it this way. Imagine if a Samurai could kill a Paladin in less than four seconds. The Paladin wouldn't matter anymore. It'd be obsolete.

So you're telling me that literally the only thing a DPS should be able to do in a teamfight is kill the tank. After that what, they run away? Because if anyone with a modicum of damage gets on them, they're toast. Come on, you've been at this about as long as I have. You should know the triangle.

Marksmen hit squishy and annoying enemies. Burst-damage mages hit marksmen to destroy them before they can do much damage. Tanks are hit by both, because their job is to soak up damage. Brawlers fight back, pure tanks don't so much, but that's a stylistic choice; overall a tank's job is to soak damage from all sources so their marksmen and mages can do their job.

The idea is that Marksmen or Mages could theoretically kill one another rather quickly, coming down to a variety of factors. That's where the tank steps in, and this is why the tank has long been the crucial element in teamfights. He who tanks better allows his team to breath better, and that's where the teamfights are won. If a single Lucian can kill a tanky Leona is 3.8 seconds, she's not giving her team any breathing room, and this isn't how it used to be. You've been here since Season 3, you know this. Yes, Season 5-6 was a little too tank-leaning, but allowing them to die in four seconds is the epitome of over-correction.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Is it? Because the marksman duels in my games tend to last 5-7 seconds, depending on how committed each is to stand and trade.

yes it is. You are taking one situation and comparing it to an average of many other situation that are similar.

Then put it this way. Imagine if a Samurai could kill a Paladin in less than four seconds. The Paladin wouldn't matter anymore. It'd be obsolete.

The Paladins job is to CC and absorb damage to allow the paladin's allies to kill the Samuri. (I think this is a terrible analogy, but I will use it to try to get you to understand)

So you're telling me that literally the only thing a DPS should be able to do in a teamfight is kill the tank. After that what, they run away? Because if anyone with a modicum of damage gets on them, they're toast. Come on, you've been at this about as long as I have. You should know the triangle.

I'm saying that the DPS is the best at dealing with the tank. The job of the DPS is to dish out as much damage as they can while staying alive and safe. After they kill the tank they focus the next safe target to attack and so on.

Marksmen hit squishy and annoying enemies. Burst-damage mages hit marksmen to destroy them before they can do much damage.

Marksman hit anyone they can safely. Preferably squishies because squishies do more damage than tanks and can kill marksman.

Burst mages focus marksman so that the marksman can't do their one job do consistent damage.

Tanks are hit by both, because their job is to soak up damage. Brawlers fight back, pure tanks don't so much, but that's a stylistic choice; overall a tank's job is to soak damage from all sources so their marksmen and mages can do their job.

Yes and Tanks and even brawlers to an extent want to apply CC to those opposing damage dealers(Marksman and mages) so their damage dealers can safely kill them.

The idea is that Marksmen or Mages could theoretically kill one another rather quickly, coming down to a variety of factors.

Yes, but it is not theoretical it is fact.

That's where the tank steps in, and this is why the tank has long been the crucial element in teamfights.

Kinda two separate thoughts so I split them up. In a teamfight scenario Tanks are super important like you say.

He who tanks better allows his team to breath better, and that's where the teamfights are won.

I think you miss a lot of important elements here. Tanks jobs are different depending on so many different factors. To tank better can mean so many different things and even if you play the fight better as a tank you must rely on your teammates to play it right as well.

Lucian can kill a tanky Leona is 3.8 seconds, she's not giving her team any breathing room, and this isn't how it used to be.

Alot of things here. One, Leona had to have not landed a single ability and not had her W up to die this quickly. In other words she tanked wrong, and deserved to lose. Leona is also a support tank so she is drastically squishies than a true solo lane tank would be at this point.

You've been here since Season 3, you know this. Yes, Season 5-6 was a little too tank-leaning, but allowing them to die in four seconds is the epitome of over-correction.

Seasons 5 and 6 were WAY too tanky. Don't underplay it. Yes right now tanks do feel weak, but again with a few adjustments to those high true damage numbers I see them coming back strong. They also need to help them by making the resolve tree not trash. Tanks need to rely on their team and that has not really been seen until recent. Yes they may be a wea bit on the weak side, but they are much closer to where they should be now than they were in season 5 and 6.

Zardo1 votes

No LOL lucian would've killed the marksman in 1 q + PTA proc

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

No LOL lucian would've killed the marksman in 1 q + PTA proc

Mm, then why didn't our marksman die in one Q + PTA...? Because our marksman lasted several seconds longer than my Leona did.

And yeah, your response will be "you're bad, get good", but no amount of skillful Leona play can provide her more damage reduction. If the W doesn't do it, that's it, you're not getting any more.

saltran1 votes

Do you realize that Lucian is literally the best adc in the game and that he wont get any buffs right?

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Do you realize that Lucian is literally the best adc in the game and that he wont get any buffs right?

I'm not worried about buffs, he's busted right now. He wasn't before last season, so they did something wrong last season. Before that, Lucian was a strong, competitive ADC who could make things happen in the hands of a good player, but he never did damage this obscene.

Did I mention the Lucian I spoke of played against an Irelia top and had inhib within the first 25 minutes of the game?

Frosted Tips1 votes

So he clearly out matched his lane opponent and was probably super fed.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

So he clearly out matched his lane opponent and was probably super fed.

I don't care how fed you are, if you a squishy AD champion can achieve a build that can kill ~240 Armor in 3.8 seconds on an opponent only two levels behind, something is wrong with your game design.

Ralanr1 votes

You know, one tank and one fighter is enough of a frontline.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

You know, one tank and one fighter is enough of a frontline.

Problem is, tanks no longer exist.

saltran1 votes

Sion

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Sion

More of a brawler, really, but reasonable enough.

Doge20201 votes

I think Ashe gets under appreciated in this case. She can go ADC (because she kinda does need a supp to survive lane reliably) while somebody like Draven, Vayne, Luc or ezreal goes another role. Like ezreal or Draven mid, Vayne top or twitch jungle. Either one of the champs and roles works. Ashe isn’t entirely useless because her r and her kit in general helps her teammates while there is Draven, Lucian or Vayne to bring the big damages.

Ashe can be very good with self peeling if she lands R, and if the player is good enough at kiting (walking away a step then using an auto attack) because her passive applies a slow on her basic attacks.

chipndip11 votes

I'm gonna have to give this a "no" dawg.

Double tank comps are viable. Not in solo queue, but they are.

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