LCS has 0 to do with SoloQ balance

Mira Arya Enthe·Jan 11, 2017·27 votes·1,172 views

Tired of seeing posts "If x is OP why not used in LCS?" or "If x is not OP why did faker play them?"

First of all, LCS does not encompass all proplay. That aside LCS picks are based on team comps and specialized metas with extremely heavy focus on team tools, communication and filling very specific niches for the team comp.

The perfect example? even when considered trash in SoloQ Rek was nerfed because she was overpowered in coordinated proteams. generally considered broken and annoying by the boards, is far from a common pick in pro-play.

"LCS" being included in your argument about a champions balance in relation to your Silver promos or Diamond 5 game only shows your lack of understanding League. Pro-gaming and the other 99.99% of players live in two entirely separate universes. Please base your SoloQ arguments around SoloQ data and experiences.

25 Comments

BeatzBoyFTWJan 11, 20179 votes

LeeSin 's W buff at 6.18 was purely for the sake of LCS.

paisyJan 11, 20177 votes

Shen

Rock MDJan 11, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-11T07:06:27.457+0000)

Geez man these ahri mains are really pissing me off by guiding and manupilating the arguments into stuff like LCS, and comparing totally different champions so that she will look weak.

Basically they are telling us ahri has no range, no damage, no utility, no teamfight presence, no roaming potential. By the ballsack of a female fox succubus.(Which is non-existant and BS) WTF is this?

Lmao are you both really that salty over a post where I said I wasn't debating balance but I was going to go over a few tips on how to deal with Ahri?

I'm sooooo sorry I referenced LCS but I prefer to think about champions on power scale based on what they can do, not how well they do when shit goes wrong.

Why? Because shit hitting the fact is an inherently low elo trait. The lower you go the more accidents that happen and while that can make champions overbearing (Yi, Akali, old Darius) in solo queue environments it tends to ease up as you go higher up. Why do you think Syndra and Ryze, the 45% winrate monster himself, are the permabanned champions? It's because as you go higher elo the mistakes are less and less and thus Ryze is considered to be a stronger pick than 54% winrate Ahri.

It's about potential, and if you want to stop debating potential and theory to get upvotes then do so but if I'm talking about dealing with champions that are deemed problematic I think we need to go to the theoretical level instead of, "Hurr durr nerf pls."

That's why I want some of my own champions, including Ziggs, nerfed. Ziggs has a high potential that makes him attractive as an ADC even at the Challenger level.

Ahri, from my preferred stats website of choice (leagueofgraphs), drops from a 53% winrate to a 51.5%, because her potential isn't nearly as astounding as that of most mages. That's what I think about her balance, and frankly I was trying to help because I understand it's harder to deal with her at a lower elo. But if, instead of accepting my advice and then pointing out the issues are a much lower elo thing, you're going to jump to conclusions and bitch about something unrelated to my advice then fucking deal with it and learn to stop crying.

Craft ZeppelinJan 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-11T07:20:51.852+0000)

Lmao are you both really that salty over a post where I said I wasn't debating balance but I was going to go over a few tips on how to deal with Ahri?

I'm sooooo sorry I referenced LCS but I prefer to think about champions on power scale based on what they can do, not how well they do when shit goes wrong.

Why? Because shit hitting the fact is an inherently low elo trait. The lower you go the more accidents that happen and while that can make champions overbearing (Yi, Akali, old Darius) in solo queue environments it tends to ease up as you go higher up. Why do you think Syndra and Ryze, the 45% winrate monster himself, are the permabanned champions? It's because as you go higher elo the mistakes are less and less and thus Ryze is considered to be a stronger pick than 54% winrate Ahri.

It's about potential, and if you want to stop debating potential and theory to get upvotes then do so but if **I'm talking about dealing with champions that are deemed problematic **I think we need to go to the theoretical level instead of, "Hurr durr nerf pls."

** That's why I want some of my own champions, including Ziggs, nerfed. Ziggs has a high potential that makes him attractive as an ADC even at the Challenger level. ** Ahri, from my preferred stats website of choice (leagueofgraphs), drops from a 53% winrate to a 51.5%, because her potential isn't nearly as astounding as that of most mages. That's what I think about her balance, and frankly I was trying to help because I understand it's harder to deal with her at a lower elo. **But if you're going to jump to conclusions and bitch about something unrelated to my advice then fucking deal with it and learn to stop crying if you're just going to push away someone trying to be helpful. **

Again. Why are you comparing champions that are totally different to make your champion look garbage. YOU are the one who is manipulating the argument so it will go to wonderland. I want to address the problem about ahri and you post how ryze, syndra, ziggs are toxic to the game. And how LCS has to do with her.

Like WTF? I want to talk about Ahri. At this point I can expect you posting you grandmothers apple pie recipe and telling me how it relates to balancing with Ahri.

Rock MDJan 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-11T07:35:12.300+0000)

**

Again. Why are you comparing champions that are totally different to make your champion look garbage. YOU are the one who is manipulating the argument so it will go to wonderland. I want to address the problem about ahri and you post how ryze, syndra, ziggs are toxic to the game. And how LCS has to do with her.

Like WTF? I want to talk about Ahri. At this point I can expect you posting you grandmothers apple pie recipe and telling me how it relates to balancing with Ahri.

facepalm

If I compared Ahri to bruisers, she'd need buffs.

If I compared her to adcs, she'd need nerfs.

You compare champions to the champions in the same role to determine where they should fall in terms of balancing. That's common. Fucking. Knowledge. I don't care if, in a 1v1, you can't kill Ahri as Xin Zhao and thus she's too safe and needs nerfs because that is irrelevant but the comparison of Ahri to her peers is NOT nonsensical because you're determining what that champion contributes to a team in respects to other champions in that role.

And compared to those champions, Ahri has a much higher safety net but lower potential. This is because, in teamfight scenarios, the scenarios teams build toward, Ahri must either get fed and have an advantage or hit the backline hard, whereas other midlaners and/or mages simply have to farm up to rip apart teams.

And thus Ahri has a lower potential output for what is input.

That is why I, as well as other, higher tier players, don't hype Ahri up as much as low elo players. Because she can do a lot for a team but at her skillcap she doesn't contribute nearly as much as a Cassiopeia or a Viktor or generally most mage midlaners.

Craft ZeppelinJan 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2017-01-11T07:51:26.498+0000)

facepalm

If I compared Ahri to bruisers, she'd need buffs.

If I compared her to adcs, she'd need nerfs.

You compare champions to the champions in the same role to determine where they should fall in terms of balancing. That's common. Fucking. Knowledge. I don't care if you can't kill Ahri as Xin Zhao and thus she's too safe and needs nerfs because that is irrelevant but the comparison of Ahri to her peers is NOT nonsensical because you're determining what that champion contributes to a team in respects to other champions in that role.

And compared to those champions, Ahri has a higher safety net but lower potential. This is because Ahri must either get fed and have an advantage or hit the backline hard, whereas other midlaners and/or mages simply have to farm up to rip apart teams.

And thus Ahri has a lower potential output for what is input.

That is why I, as well as other, higher tier players, don't hype Ahri up as much as low elo players. Because she can do a lot for a team but at her skillcap she doesn't contribute nearly as much as a Cassiopeia or a Viktor or generally most mage midlaners.

Now youre elo shaming me. WOW. This is diversion tactics by the max. And again youre comparing ahri to xin zhao, and on the other thread a nidalee. Like...what?

Normally, I thought comparing champions are due to their class and not position. Comparing lux to ziggs, xerath, velkoz seems sensible. Syndra to annie and viktor and so on. If you deviate from this it tends to make far- fetched theories that are hardly related to comparance and will make the champion in question look totally underpowered or stupidly OP and will be totally biased.

Sigh. Ok, I will play your game. https://champion.gg/champion/Ahri/Middle Statistic wise Ahri has the Death rates about the same as Xerath. Yes in all midlaners. Xerath. Her minion score is around the same as Velkoz, and malzahar which is notorious for their "uninteractivity" and "low commitment". In contrast her kill ratios boast around the same amount as Lux. Did you not say that Ahri's "potential" to drive in a kill is Lower than a burst mage? its actually quite high, and I think everyone knows about this.

What are you going to say about this?

Rock MDJan 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-11T08:11:43.879+0000)

Now youre elo shaming me. WOW. This is diversion tactics by the max. And again youre comparing ahri to xin zhao, and on the other thread a nidalee. Like...what?

Normally, I thought comparing champions are due to their class and not position. Comparing lux to ziggs, xerath, velkoz seems sensible. Syndra to annie and viktor and so on. If you deviate from this it tends to make far- fetched theories that are hardly related to comparance and will make the champion in question look totally underpowered or stupidly OP and will be totally biased.

I made the Ahri/Xin comparison to point out there's a line to draw about comparisons and that's where it becomes irrelevant and that YOU SHOULD NOT MAKE those comparisons. The fact that you cannot comprehend that is frightening in and of itself.

Almost as frightening as the fact you're unwilling to actually argue from anything aside from an emotional/victimized standpoint.

Sigh. Ok, I will play your game. https://champion.gg/champion/Ahri/Middle Statistic wise Ahri has the Death rates about the same as Xerath. Yes in all midlaners. Xerath. Her minion score is around the same as Velkoz, and malzahar which is notorious for their "uninteractivity" and "low commitment". In contrast her kill ratios boast around the same amount as Lux. Did you not say that Ahri's "potential" to drive in a kill is Lower than a burst mage? its actually quite high, and I think everyone knows about this.

What are you going to say about this?

And again with the emotional argument.

"Ahri dies as much as Xerath so she's ultrasafe."

"Ahri farms as much as two mages that are uninteractive thus she's uninteractive."

"Ahri's KD is about the same as Lux's."

This is all correlation without causation. The lowest amount of averaged deaths is 4.97, she has an average of 6.09. In the grand scheme of things she rates 10 out of 48. That means she's safe. We already discussed that but you're exaggerating her safety to suit your argument. As for her farming it's 22 out of 48, meaning she's very middle of the pack.

As for KD, again we discussed that she's safe. Dying less is usually going to inflate KDA more than picking up more kills than assists.

And I never said Ahri can't drive in a kill. I said she has to put more effort into getting kills because she cannot damage the frontline in a significant way, thus she has to flank. Thus, she requires more input (flanking and/or getting fed) to achieve less output (killing the backline vs. tearing apart an entire team). That's why I've been playing her less, personally. Because I could put less effort into playing a mage, do less early on, and still have higher carry potential.

So, now, without playing victim to what is apparently elo shaming and bullying you on a fundamental level, tell me why you don't like Ahri, and why that means she should get nerfed.

Craft ZeppelinJan 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-11T08:32:51.024+0000)

I made the Ahri/Xin comparison to point out there's a line to draw about comparisons and that's where it becomes irrelevant and that YOU SHOULD NOT MAKE those comparisons. The fact that you cannot comprehend that is frightening in and of itself.

Almost as frightening as the fact you're unwilling to actually argue from anything aside from an emotional/victimized standpoint.

And again with the emotional argument.

"Ahri dies as much as Xerath so she's ultrasafe."

"Ahri farms as much as two mages that are uninteractive thus she's uninteractive."

"Ahri's KD is about the same as Lux's."

This is all correlation without causation. The lowest amount of averaged deaths is 4.97, she has an average of 6.09. In the grand scheme of things she rates 10 out of 48. That means she's safe. We already discussed that but you're exaggerating her safety to suit your argument. As for her farming it's 22 out of 48, meaning she's very middle of the pack.

As for KD, again we discussed that she's safe. Dying less is usually going to inflate KDA more than picking up more kills than assists.

And I never said Ahri can't drive in a kill. I said she has to put more effort into getting kills because she cannot damage the frontline in a significant way, thus she has to flank. Thus, she requires more input (flanking and/or getting fed) to achieve less output (killing the backline vs. tearing apart an entire team). That's why I've been playing her less, personally. Because I could put less effort into playing a mage, do less early on, and still have higher carry potential.

So, now, without playing victim to what is apparently elo shaming and bullying you on a fundamental level, tell me why you don't like Ahri, and why that means she should get nerfed.

Dude, you seriously are a pompous person. You talk like this to a total stranger on the net who is asking for answers with reason, and you turn it into pshycological warfare that does not relate to the topic. I'm offended at least. Do you really talk like this all the time.

Well as from the assmilated stats, we could see a certain trend from ahri that she is in fact can be classified as a artilery mage. This is because she shares the statline of velkoz, xerath and lux combined, and since riot promoted her as a "kiting mage" which these champions are also in the bracket. The problem with ahri compared to this class is of her more stronger grasp of initiative in the lane because she is mobile. Artilery mages tend to have a large opening after they fire their primary rounds, while ahri on the other hand can position almost instantaneously with extreme speed. Also another fact is that artilery mages CC is very, unreliable and tend to have large motions with hefty channels. You can literally catch up to them if they miss it. As of course Ahri can cancell out of this so she is hardly punished if she misses.

You may say this is ahri's niche, but formerly she had none of this. And although people at that time had crystal sceptre as their cores the Q movement speed is so rapid that she discarded this build. From the fact that she ditched a 2.5k item just for this I think it was an overbuff. She can still have it, but it is way too fast.

AHeroNamedHawkeJan 11, 20174 votes

The point being made about Yasuo is claims that "his skillcap is infinite" and that "the enemy has no influence, it's up to Yasuo to make a mistake"

If either of these were correct, he would be a pick in pro play

Rock MDJan 11, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-11T08:16:43.744+0000)

The point being made about Yasuo is claims that "his skillcap is infinite" and that "the enemy has no influence, it's up to Yasuo to make a mistake"

If either of these were correct, he would be a pick in pro play

"Bullshit aside Yasuo is a broken champion. People say he's a high skillcap champion, but the secret with Yasuo is knowing how to control yourself while playing such a overpowered champion. Yasuo's weakness comes from the fact that he is too strong. His laning phase is so strong that after the laning phase people do not know how to keep calm and throw the game."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/545try/apdos_thoughts_stream_after_hitting_rank_1_korea/

AHeroNamedHawkeJan 11, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-01-11T08:39:15.106+0000)

"Bullshit aside Yasuo is a broken champion. People say he's a high skillcap champion, but the secret with Yasuo is knowing how to control yourself while playing such a overpowered champion. Yasuo's weakness comes from the fact that he is too strong. His laning phase is so strong that after the laning phase people do not know how to keep calm and throw the game."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/545try/apdos_thoughts_stream_after_hitting_rank_1_korea/

You mean the same guy claiming Ezreal, Jax and Fiora would be dominating worlds?

Remember when Doublelift told everyone Draven was absolutely terrible, and then he proceeded to become the most overpowered ADC? Being at the top doesn't automatically make you correct, especially with a claim as outrageous as that

Literally explain to me how a champion with an infinite skillcap and no counterplay isn't a pro pick

Rock MDJan 11, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-01-11T08:50:08.741+0000)

You mean the same guy claiming Ezreal, Jax and Fiora would be dominating worlds?

Remember when Doublelift told everyone Draven was absolutely terrible, and then he proceeded to become the most overpowered ADC? Being at the top doesn't automatically make you correct, especially with a claim as outrageous as that

Literally explain to me how the a champion with an infinite skillcap and no counterplay isn't a pro pick

For the same reason any champion can or cannot be a pro pick; accessibility and niche.

Why pick a high skill champion when I can pick something much easier with comparable results?

Take Draven. Draven does more damage to squishies than meta pick Twitch. The reason Twitch sees play is because he can actually, reliably hit the backline, which is the only part of a team that seems to die this season.

In Yasuo's case; it's a mixture of both. Not only are his niches not desired in this meta but he is not very accessible and if you want comparable results you could just pick Riven, who (iirc) counters him and is downright godly this season.

AHeroNamedHawkeJan 11, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usEw62pg,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-11T09:03:39.890+0000)

For the same reason any champion can or cannot be a pro pick; accessibility and niche.

Why pick a high skill champion when I can pick something much easier with comparable results?

Take Draven. Draven does more damage to squishies than meta pick Twitch. The reason Twitch sees play is because he can actually, reliably hit the backline, which is the only part of a team that seems to die this season.

In Yasuo's case; it's a mixture of both. Not only are his niches not desired in this meta but he is not very accessible and if you want comparable results you could just pick Riven, who (iirc) counters him and is downright godly this season.

Because a champion that scales infinitely with your ability to play is going to be top tier in an environment where everyone plays perfectly? Why do you think Azir was autowin in competitive but had a 44% win rate in solo queue? Exact same thing

His statement has nothing to do with "this meta", as it was made before worlds. Syndra had a 97% pick/ban rate and Lee/Reksai were top junglers, but he wasn't picked a single time. If that wasn't an ample opportunity to display a"broken champion avoiding mistakes after the laning phase", I don't know what is.

CowseedJan 11, 20171 votes

In the same post he said he wouldn't be suprised if this worlds(worlds then) would have been the most diversed we'd seen yet.

We had mf support and an mf ban so yeah. This guys is the only good source of information.

GULAG 4 UJan 11, 20171 votes

Yes that is why Yasuo's winrate goes up when he is nerfed right?

Dextix LTJan 11, 20173 votes

Now if you could tell RIOT that little detail, then it would be fine.

But currently Riot balances equaly for LCS and for normal play, which is not good.

48983507DEL1Jan 11, 20173 votes

I'm surprised that LCS hasn't done what Halo and CoD MLG have been doing for the past decade: balancing pro-play and public matches differently.

Ever since Halo 3, the pro scene has been changing the base stats and starting weapons from the original game due to MLG players liking a faster pace with stricter rules. If I'm not mistaken, the only weapons approved of in competitive Halo: Reach were the DMR and the Magnum.

Call of Duty has had a similar history since Modern Warfare 2 I believe. Pro players constantly enforce bans on different guns and equipment depending on what they considered to be fair. In Black Ops 2, Shock Charges were perma-banned from MLG games due to their toxic design and abuse, while they were left totally unchanged in normal public matches.

League of Legends, however, hasn't ever done that, keeping the statistical numbers exactly the same for LCS as it is for the rest of the players.

On one hand, this makes it really easy to follow what's going on in the pro scene, since nothing is truly different about the characters or the map.

On the other hand, it does cause some things to be completely unbalanced in LCS, while being barely viable in Solo Q.

In the end though, I feel LCS's biggest reason for success is how easy it is to follow for the everyday player. If I were to start watching a game of Black Ops 3 - Capture the Flag, I probably would be pretty lost as the environment they're playing in is far fetched from what a normal player would experience.

But, if Riot ever truly wanted to make the game perfectly balanced for both scenes, they would have to separate their balance designs.

Craft ZeppelinJan 11, 20172 votes

Geez man these ahri mains are really pissing me off by guiding and manupilating the arguments into stuff like LCS, and comparing totally different champions so that she will look weak.

Basically they are telling us ahri has no range, no damage, no utility, no teamfight presence, no roaming potential. By the ballsack of a female fox succubus.(Which is non-existant and BS) WTF is this?

Judge StevenJan 11, 20171 votes

On a related note, I feel that if Riot separated low elo from high elo in SoloQ it could do a world of wonders for both SoloQ and league balance. For example, they could cut SoloQ into 2 queues of players that range from say, Bronze V to Platinum I and another for Diamond V to Challenger. Then they can just balance the two groups separately in patches to make both groups of players happy without infringing on the other group.

Perhaps there could be crossovers between the two queues for things like placements (i.e. Challenger players can still be placed in Platinum I at the season start), rank drops/promotions (Diamond V player loses several games and drops to Platinum I again), cases where a player's MMR is lower/higher than their rank suggests (Platinum I player gets put into a Diamond III MMR game because their MMR is quite a bit higher than their current rank), or to alleviate longer queue times at the higher elos (matchmaking can't find a suitable player to start the match after 10 mins of searching for a Diamond V MMR game, so it begins looking for Platinum I players with Diamond V MMR) but there wouldn't be much interaction besides those cases.

Also, this change would allow autofill to be enabled only for high elo players, who are the ones that asked for it in the first place anyway. Queue times are low enough from Bronze to Platinum that we don't really need autofill for "shorter queue times".

MaeDoSanJan 11, 20171 votes

I think master and challenger should run on a different patch than lower ranks

n0life666Jan 12, 20171 votes

being pro nowadays is knowing what is broken op atm and playing /building it at the right moment

DaxanaterJan 12, 20171 votes

Shen ???

DaxanaterJan 12, 20171 votes

Your Yasuo is wrong, during frozen mallet days with him he was picked in pro play. SoloQ data isn't affected but players are influenced from pro play which does cause changes. So even though your point has a chance of being right, LCS will always influence SoloQ.

BârdJan 12, 20171 votes

He was picked, but sparingly.

With a team of professional players working together, it's not all that hard to shut down a Yasuo (jungle ganks, lane swaps, etc.)

He could definitely kick ass, but if you pick him too often the other team will wise up that you want to play Yasuo and they will ban him, pick him, or counter him.