@Riot, Allowing Garen via Silence to proc Aftershock

Romans VI XXIII·Jan 16, 2018·5 votes·2,839 views

This is mostly at Riot and would like to get a discussion going with them at why they chose not to add Silence to the list of CCs that Proc Aftershock.

And yes this change would basicly only affect Garen, giving him an actual useful keystones, as none of the other keystones really fit his style.

Why would this only affect Garen? Well Garen is the only champion in league right now that has a silence and can not proc aftershock with 1 or more of his other abilities.

Why does Garen need Aftershock? Well it's litterly the perfect keystone for him IMO. As a typical Garen play style is to charge at an enemy Q them and spin around them until you can press R, which means out of all the keystones Aftershock would be the most useful. Not only is it designed for juggernauts, but it's designed to give a brief chunk of tankyness followed by a little more damage to enemies near you. Which is exactly what Garen needs in a keystone.

I'm really just curious as to why Riot is baring Garen from using Aftershock, as like I said he is the only champion with a silence who can not already proc it. Thus making it seem that Riot intentionally made it so he could not use it, and I'm curious as to why?

51 Comments

redniwediSJan 16, 20186 votes

I'm a Garen main, and I'm not opposed to the idea of having Aftershock as an option, but I don't really see it as necessary either. It's more of a tank rune, and I don't really want people to be rewarded for playing Garen with a full tank build.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

I want it on Garen as there's no real keystones that's good on him, all of them are very situational, at least if he could proc aftershock he could always it.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

I want it on Garen as there's no real keystones that's good on him, all of them are very situational, at least if he could proc aftershock he could always it.

redniwediSJan 16, 20181 votes

I'm hoping the new keystone they are working on will be good on him, because I agree that he doesn't really have a good keystone right now.

That said I'm also not sure Aftershock will be that great on him. It scales hard with resistances, and I don't know about you but I don't normally get more than two items that have resistances on them. Aftershock seems a little too focused on tank stats for Garen to make effective use of, and would likely just be a good choice for specific matchups rather than as a good overall keystone.

The damage would be nice, but I get plenty of damage out of Grasp already, and it helps me with that pre-11 sustain.

Critmaster GarenJan 16, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I'm hoping the new keystone they are working on will be good on him, because I agree that he doesn't really have a good keystone right now.

That said I'm also not sure Aftershock will be that great on him. It scales hard with resistances, and I don't know about you but I don't normally get more than two items that have resistances on them. Aftershock seems a little too focused on tank stats for Garen to make effective use of, and would likely just be a good choice for specific matchups rather than as a good overall keystone.

The damage would be nice, but I get plenty of damage out of Grasp already, and it helps me with that pre-11 sustain.

aftershock gives a burst of resistances itself, and the damage proc triggers after 2.5 seconds, which means usually during his spin.

so it can be useful considering you want to stack a lot of health anyways, and you have always decent resistances through your w passive, even when youre not building full tank.

on the other hand its not going to be exceptionally op. so why not allow the option to take it?

the downside of grasp is often, that its windup timer forces you to stay 1 second longer after a trade to get the proc. there are also a bunch of matchups where you cant stack the health and it feels kidof wasted as a keystone. aftershock would be more useful in those cases.

redniwediSJan 16, 20181 votes

That's all fair. Like I originally said I'm not opposed to it being an option.

The main reason I like Grasp is because of that pre-11 lane phase. Prepare it on minions, do a typical Q + E combo, and finish with an auto for two procs of Grasp. It's definitely not ideal and is all but useless once the lane phase ends, but in some matchups it's great for tipping the balance of trades in your favor.

I'm messing around with Dark Harvest, Fleet Footwork, and Phase Rush because I want to find something that is more reliable and useful over the course of the entire game, but I might have to wait for that new keystone before that happens.

Critmaster GarenJan 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That's all fair. Like I originally said I'm not opposed to it being an option.

The main reason I like Grasp is because of that pre-11 lane phase. Prepare it on minions, do a typical Q + E combo, and finish with an auto for two procs of Grasp. It's definitely not ideal and is all but useless once the lane phase ends, but in some matchups it's great for tipping the balance of trades in your favor.

I'm messing around with Dark Harvest, Fleet Footwork, and Phase Rush because I want to find something that is more reliable and useful over the course of the entire game, but I might have to wait for that new keystone before that happens.

i woudlnt recommend fleet footwork unless youre building crit. which is an option, but its effectiveness is kindof tied to getting a crit on the attack that procs it for an increased heal. plus it scales with bonus ad, so its only going to heal a decent amount when you build ad items.

redniwediSJan 16, 20181 votes

Some games I go for an IE and Phantom Dancer, though I was mainly looking at Fleet Footwork for the movement speed boost at the start of my combo. I'll limit using it to games I expect crit to be a viable option.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

I prefer predator over any of those 3, I've found it useful in all parts of the game, specially roaming to help other lanes.

redniwediSJan 16, 20181 votes

I absolutely love predator, but something about it feels off when I use it on Garen. I'll try it out a bit more if you're having luck with it.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

The only part about it that stinks is having to get boots before phage if u want to be able to use a keystones in the early game. Some times depending on match ups I'll start boots +predator.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

I believe it would be better than grasp as it 2 would give him pre-11 sustain through defence. Not taking damage in the first place is better than having to get in AA range to heal. Plus it makes him tankier allowing him to only get those 2 defence items and be able to go justice deep into the enemy team

Colgate GatorJan 16, 20185 votes

It's supposed to proc with hard CC, Garen doesn't have hard CC, it isn't that he's being solely affected.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

No Riot chooses what procs it, and they explicitly do not include Silences into that list. But for what reason is my question.

InfernapeJan 16, 20181 votes

Because it isn't hard CC that immobilises an enemy champion. Snares, stuns, displacements, and roots fully stop a champion from moving. Silences do not.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 17, 20181 votes

Please read what I am saying. It's not hard to comprehend.

Critmaster GarenJan 16, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Postal Badger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=upVzjNZ0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-16T18:09:44.346+0000)

It's supposed to proc with hard CC, Garen doesn't have hard CC, it isn't that he's being solely affected.

thats a matter of definition. what really is "hard cc"?

if hard cc is any form of cc that prevents you from either moving or casting spells (like stuns), then why do snares trigger aftershock?

the rune tooltip itself says "immobilizing effects" but you could count the prevention of mobility spells into that. its a matter of debate.

at the end of the day, the question should be: does riot want garen to be able to trigger aftershock, or not? is there a reason to not allow him to?

i see the keystone as being potentially good on him, but not exceptionally overpowered. so why not give him a second option for a keystone in resolve?

OleandervineJan 16, 20182 votes

Hard CC isn't a matter of debate at all. Hard CC is crowd control that without argument removes the ability for your champion to move and/or take actions. Silence is not hard CC because it doesn't stop movement. Slows are not hard CC because they do not stop movement. Grounded is not hard CC because it does not stop movement.

Snares, Stuns, Roots, Suppression, Knock Ups, and Knock Asides are ALL hard CC because they temporarily cease movement on enemy champions. There is really no debate whatsoever on this matter. These are also all immobilizing effects. The "prevention of mobility spells" is not an immobilizing effect, because that champion is still mobile, i.e. still able to be given movement commands and execute them. Being silenced and being unable to use your dash is no an immobilizing effect, and there is absolutely no gray area that this could be counted as such.

Garen simply cannot use aftershock because he does not have any hard CC. It is as clear and simple as that. Riot would need to change his kit to allow him to use Aftershock by adding in some kind of hard CC to him. Trying to classify Silence as hard CC is a futile stretch that doesn't really make any sense no matter which way you try to look at it, because Silence doesn't operate like hard CC in any way whatsoever.

Critmaster GarenJan 16, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Hard CC isn't a matter of debate at all. Hard CC is crowd control that without argument removes the ability for your champion to move and/or take actions. Silence is not hard CC because it doesn't stop movement. Slows are not hard CC because they do not stop movement. Grounded is not hard CC because it does not stop movement.

Snares, Stuns, Roots, Suppression, Knock Ups, and Knock Asides are ALL hard CC because they temporarily cease movement on enemy champions. There is really no debate whatsoever on this matter. These are also all immobilizing effects. The "prevention of mobility spells" is not an immobilizing effect, because that champion is still mobile, i.e. still able to be given movement commands and execute them. Being silenced and being unable to use your dash is no an immobilizing effect, and there is absolutely no gray area that this could be counted as such.

Garen simply cannot use aftershock because he does not have any hard CC. It is as clear and simple as that. Riot would need to change his kit to allow him to use Aftershock by adding in some kind of hard CC to him. Trying to classify Silence as hard CC is a futile stretch that doesn't really make any sense no matter which way you try to look at it, because Silence doesn't operate like hard CC in any way whatsoever.

they dont need to change his kit.

the condition of making aftershock only work on immobilizing effects is arbitrary in the first place. there isnt really a good reason for it being there, other than to make it trigger at the correct moment for tanks. (usually cc is attached to their engage/melee abilities).

but even in that case again.

the question is really why not allow garen to trigger it with his silence aswell? they could easily add silence to the list of cc that triggers aftershock to allow him to take the keystone, without affecting other champions with silences or screwing around with the trigger condition for champions who are already taking it.

OleandervineJan 16, 20181 votes

I think it's an arbitrary argument because you want some super special treatment for Garen. He doesn't really need aftershock because he has other tools at his disposal. He could just as easily take Glacial, or Fleet Footwork, or Press the Attack, or Grasp. Making a specific change to add a soft CC to aftershock's list just so Garen can use it is just silly.

Critmaster GarenJan 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I think it's an arbitrary argument because you want some super special treatment for Garen. He doesn't really need aftershock because he has other tools at his disposal. Making a specific change to add a soft CC to aftershock's list just so Garen can use it is just silly.

my argument is the lack of synergetic keystones for him (that includes grasp with its activation time being longer than his ability combo), and that silence added to the list would only really affect him. it would also be a very low efford change, since its literally a single additional line of code in the programming of the keystones trigger condition.

so yes, im asking for special treatment in this case for pretty good reason.

OleandervineJan 16, 20181 votes

And how is grasp really going to be any better on him? The trick to killing Garen is to kite him to infinity and beyond, and a keystone that procs hoping that enemies are on top of you isn't going to work on Garen, who by the time he's silenced someone, will have blown his wad in terms of chasing someone down. They can just easily walk away from him before it triggers.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

None of the keystones are good on him. You simply take one cause u have to not cause it's good

Pika FoxJan 16, 20182 votes

I mean, they could just say aftershock triggers on hard CC and silence... Not the best argument against his suggestion.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

Your not seeing the point that Riot set what can or cannot proc aftershock, okay yes silence is not a hard CC, that is completely irrelevant. Riot can make aftershock proc on anything they want, an AA could proc it if they wanted, so the question is Why did they not include Silences in the condition to proc Aftershock as it would only affect Garen, and Garen only.

OleandervineJan 16, 20181 votes

No, it would affect every single champion with a silence. This includes Blitzcrank Chogath Soraka Fiddlesticks and Malzahar . The point is, we don't need a juggernaut like Garen, who can be difficult to kill as it is due to his already passive stacking Armor/MR in W, being bursty and super tanky just because he landed a silence on you. Before the damage cracks off on Aftershock, you gain like 30% of your AR and MR, and if Garen got that every 20 seconds when he landed a silence, he'd be incredibly tanky for no reason whatsoever.

Critmaster GarenJan 16, 20183 votes

{quoted}

No, it would affect every single champion with a silence. This includes and .

how?

because they already can trigger aftershock with basic abilities.

blitz with his q and e cho with his q soraka with her e (she wouldnt even want the keystone) fiddle with his q (again doesnt seem to want it anyway) malzahar can trigger it with his ult right now (and i still dont see a reason for him to pick it)

so in your own words, explain to me how exactly it would affect them. im curious.

yes, garen would get a burst of tankyness for exactly 2.5 seconds. i dont see the big deal. the downside is the long cooldown which grasp doesnt have. theyd be both situational dependent on the matchup but it wouldnt be op.

we don't need a juggernaut like Garen, who can be difficult to kill as it is due to his already passive stacking Armor/MR in W, being bursty and super tanky.

you mean like Darius Udyr Volibear Trundle who can currenty trigger the keystone?

sounds to me like you have more of an issue with garen in general than that a juggernaut can pick aftershock.

OleandervineJan 16, 20181 votes

Garen stacks MR and AR with his E already. He already has natural tankiness built into his bruiser kit, so giving him even more tankiness at no expense to his build path is just asking for problems.

And just because those champions don't use Aftershock effectively doesn't mean it doesn't affect them. It affects them by default. As for Blitz and Cho, giving them another option to trigger aftershock with just dumbs them down. Miss your Q? That's ok, you now have an easy to land silence to trigger it on. Giving too many avenues to triggering abilities removes the skill involved.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 17, 20181 votes

Virtually every ADC has AS buffs in their kits, should we remove all keystones/runes that give AS? That's the log8c you are using

OleandervineJan 17, 20181 votes

Attack speed and Armor/Magic Resist are COMPLETELY different animals from a stat perspective. Stacking oodles of attack speed means you attack faster, but it doesn't give you stats that help you live longer. Garen, conversely, already has AR/MR stacking in his W, which makes him tankier in terms of typical bruisers without the need for him having to purchase tank items. If we suddenly added in MORE free tank stats to him, he could get absurdly tanky without needing to buy tank items, and then we'll start seeing a problem of an unkillable, bursty bruiser.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 17, 20181 votes

Your completely right 2.5 seconds of increased stats that exponentially get worse will break a champion into oblivion. For 2.5s

Increased AS means u attack faster, which means with LS (which virtually all ADCs build) you heal faster = live longer.

Burst assassin's get electrocute and burst even faster with fewer items.

We can circle jerk about runes giving free stats all day long, cause that's what they do. Riot is supposed to balance that, and that's why my OP was directed at Riot to get a stance on why they would not let Garen have aftershock. Cause Garen has no keystones that are Good on him, the best is Grasp, and it is awkward to use half the time, aftershock would be a Good keystones on him.

FYI most bruisers can already proc aftershock anyway, so saying aftershock is only for tanks is silly, the point of being able to choose your keystones is so that you can use Any One on Any Champion, regardless of class.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

Okay then remove Aftershock altogether since it makes X champion tankier for 2.5s every 20 seconds. That's the logic you just used. So while we r at it lets remove all keystones cause they give X champion Y stats and that's OP.

Also those champs u listed can already proc Aftershock, hence my Factual statement that Garen is the only champion with a Silence that can not proc aftershock, a keystones designed for his class of champion.

OleandervineJan 17, 20181 votes

You're overblowing and overdramatizing this. Garen is different than the tanks that typically utilize Aftershock because he is a bruiser, who builds damage primarily, and not a tank, who primarily builds defense. Yet he naturally has tanky stats that come to him via his kit to allow for him to be tankier than usual bruisers without needing to build it and focus on damage.

And as for the last part of your statement, that's a fallacy. Garen is the only champion who can't proc Aftershock who has a silence, but that's not because their silence procs Aftershock. Their silences DO NOT PROC AFTERSHOCK. Other abilities or triggers in their kits cause the hard CC that allows them to proc Aftershock. Do not try to imply that Garen is being singled out because he has a silence and can't proc Aftershock by drawing connections to champions with entirely different abilities, and not the silences, that are proccing it.

Furthermore, Garen's class of champion is not designed to use Aftershock. Tanks were the target users for Aftershock. Bruisers were not. Bruisers have very few instances of CC in their kits, because they are a class that is supposed to be sturdier, but deal more sustained forms of damage, and not intended to be locking down opponents. Bruisers were left in a very awkward spot after the runes update because they really didn't have any favorable keystones, and they've done some minor work on Grasp of the Undying to get it to where Bruisers will favor it, but it's still a work in progress.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 17, 20181 votes

My statement is not false, it is 100% true.

I never once said silence proc aftershock, I stated all champions that have a silence but Garen can proc aftershock so why not let silence proc it so Garen can utilize it, as it would not affect any other champions very much at all.

Soraka is SO HOTJan 16, 20183 votes

[deleted]

q3fogWe6LFJan 16, 20183 votes

[deleted]

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

His facts are not, look up Mass and Sorakas abilities.

Kass does not have a silence but an interrupt now, and sorakas silence pool ends in a root. Thus making my statement correct.

Critmaster GarenJan 16, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yuki Kaji,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=upVzjNZ0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-16T18:06:39.934+0000)

: I have a silence, yet can not proc Aftershock with 1 or more of my other abilities. : I also have a silence, and can not proc Aftershock with 1 or more of my other abilities. : I too have a silence, but I can not proc Aftershock with 1 or more of my other abilities. : I have a silence, and I can proc Aftershock by being 1 spooky boy!

: "......"

To be continued....

Sorry, I had a bit of fun with this one.

and all have a silence and an ability that can proc Aftershock.

have a silence, but can not proc Aftershock.

So this would affect more than just Garen.

Soraka has a snare attached to her e, which can proc aftershock.

Kassadin doesnt have a silence anymore. for years.

Viktor doesnt have a silence.

it would only affect garen. especially if you consider that soraka wouldnt even want it, even if she couldnt already trigger it with her e.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

You are incorrect.

Kass: No longer has a silence, it was change to an interrupt. Same with victors silence on his got, it know only interrupts.

Soraka: Speak as silence pool ends with a root, which can/does proc aftershock.

Thus making my statement correct that Garen is the only champion with a silence that can not proc aftershock.

SirsirJan 16, 20183 votes

Pretty sure Grasp does pretty good on Garen.

Critmaster GarenJan 16, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Pretty sure Grasp does pretty good on Garen.

so? other champions too have multiple options of keystones in the same path.

one keystone being good on him isnt an argument against giving him alternatives that could be equally good.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

This, Garen can only realisticly even use 3 or 4 of the keystones successfully.

Critmaster GarenJan 16, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arndt E Z,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=upVzjNZ0,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-01-16T18:59:00.678+0000)

This Garen can only realisticly even use 3 or 4 of the keystones successfully.

id say he really only has 2 realistic options. grasp and electrocute.

predator is fun, but extremely situational. glacial augment sucks ass, and youre better off building a mallet. im not a fan of pahse rush either.

really, there are champions who can pick almost every keystone in every tree and synergize with them. id really like to know what the issue is with letting garen proc aftershock.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

i hink electrocute is usless, in almost all situations he cant get 3 separate attacks off in 3s as his spin lasts 3 seconds, meaning u have to weave an AA in before your Q, wh8ch realisticly is only done in lane or hiding in a bush. Unless u end Spin early which means u r losing damage.

But agree with all your other points

SaturnSC1Jan 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=upVzjNZ0,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-16T19:02:05.667+0000)

id say he really only has 2 realistic options. grasp and electrocute.

predator is fun, but extremely situational. glacial augment sucks ass, and youre better off building a mallet. im not a fan of pahse rush either.

really, there are champions who can pick almost every keystone in every tree and synergize with them. id really like to know what the issue is with letting garen proc aftershock.

Press The attack? Phase rush? Basic attack+Q+E for Phase rush proc and AA+Q+AA for PtA is pretty simple.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 17, 20181 votes

Like I've stated before you almost never do an AA>Q unless u r in the laning phase or hiding in a bush, making runes that require 3AAs or 3 seperate attacks usless for 80% of the game.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 16, 20181 votes

Grasp is okay, but does not fit his style of play. There is lots of times u can go several fights/duels without even procing Grasp due to it requiring an AA after being in combat for 3 secs. Garen does not want to be in combat for 3 seconds, specially when trading. You want to Q (silence them) then spin, and get out before/as silence ends. And unless you push your wave soly to keep grasp proc up then in regular duels you would never proc it.

Eat Rammus SoupJan 16, 20181 votes

Garen is a low ELO champion for reasons like this. The only CC in his kit is a 1 second silence which doesn't really turn the tides against Juggs and Bruisers he's paired against- who can just keep attacking through the silence and remain unaffected.