Why do you guys complain about marksmen?

chipndip1·Jun 7, 2017·4 votes·614 views

I don't get it. People complain about marksmen being basically required in every game, right? Fine, I'm willing to entertain the notion that maybe people want team comps that don't have a marksman sometimes.

But it's pretty common sense you need a carry champion in some form. However, whenever a melee carry gets strong enough to be noticeable in the meta (Riven, Fiora, Jax, YASUO, Yi), you guys completely lose it. Sometimes they don't even need to be strong more than they just gotta be "decent"...like Yasuo. Fiora's qq threads are already coming up on the gameplay boards, too. Like, honestly, you guys are probably more upset with the fact that you're getting styled on by ANY carry, melee or ranged, than you are about champ diversity.

13 Comments

Teridax68Jun 7, 20175 votes

First off, marksmen and light fighters are not the only carries in the game. Mages have been referred to as AP Carries for quite some time, with champions like Azir, Cassiopeia and Karthus being good examples of AP hypercarries (they're not the only ones out there, though). The fact that they don't count as "carries" when compared to marksmen suggests that the marksman class may have too generous a carry curve. Similarly, when juggernauts were defined as a subclass, many of them were also meant to be carries (Mordekaiser being the prime example), yet the main reason they don't fulfill that is because they're too kiteable and short-ranged to carry reliably at any point in the game.

Second, the reason light fighters are disliked when they're strong is because they're generally designed and balanced around marksmen to start with, which makes them horribly oppressive in a solo lane. Yasuo is the prototype for the modern light fighter model, and was initially designed to go into bot lane as a carry, which is why he was so overpowered on release. When he was eventually balanced around solo laning, he had no chance of competing in bot lane, but still remained frustrating to play against in top and mid lane. When a late-game champion can also be a lane bully against ranged opponents, yet still fails to hold up in a lane dedicated to late-game champions with supposedly weak early games, that strongly suggests a major design and balancing issue. This can also be seen whenever a marksman becomes popular in a solo lane, and often turns into a hypercarry lane bully (e.g. mid lane Lucian or Varus, top lane Vayne, etc.).

Third, I question the necessity of a "carry" champion in every team. With games becoming increasingly fast-paced, victories are often decided within the laning phase or just after, where early- and mid-game champions are at their strongest, and where late-game champions haven't yet come online. Banking everything on early game power should be a valid strategy, just as it should be to have a pure late-game comp (there should also be, and there are, late-game champions in every class, not just marksmen or light fighters or whatever). The fact that a "carry" class is still so essential to the game, when matches end way before late-game even begins, suggests that marksmen aren't simply picked because they're strong late game, but because they're just strong overall, including in lane, and including in the mid game.

chipndip1Jun 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

First off, marksmen and light fighters are not the only carries in the game. Mages have been referred to as AP Carries for quite some time, with champions like Azir, Cassiopeia and Karthus being good examples of AP hypercarries (they're not the only ones out there, though). The fact that they don't count as "carries" when compared to marksmen suggests that the marksman class may have too generous a carry curve. Similarly, when juggernauts were defined as a subclass, many of them were also meant to be carries (Mordekaiser being the prime example), yet the main reason they don't fulfill that is because they're too kiteable and short-ranged to carry reliably at any point in the game.

Remember Morde when he WAS a meta bot laner? The entire Morde community came together solely to push him back to the solo lanes. The point of this thread is that if people don't want marksmen to be required in every game, you need a different type of champ in the bot lane in their stead...but who the hell is that gonna be? No one likes melee carries, jugs being strong in the bot lane will probably set off the warning sirens (again), and mages are hard to even put down there. Why bother whining in the first place?

Second, the reason light fighters are disliked when they're strong is because they're generally designed and balanced around marksmen to start with, which makes them horribly oppressive in a solo lane. Yasuo is the prototype for the modern light fighter model, and was initially designed to go into bot lane as a carry, which is why he was so overpowered on release. When he was eventually balanced around solo laning, he had no chance of competing in bot lane, but still remained frustrating to play against in top and mid lane. When a late-game champion can also be a lane bully against ranged opponents, yet still fails to hold up in a lane dedicated to late-game champions with supposedly weak early games, that strongly suggests a major design and balancing issue. This can also be seen whenever a marksman becomes popular in a solo lane, and often turns into a hypercarry lane bully (e.g. mid lane Lucian or Varus, top lane Vayne, etc.).

The term for "light fighter" now is "skirmisher". Lil faster to type. Just a heads up of sorts.

Secondly, they aren't balanced around marksmen specifically more than they're balanced around "dealing with ranged champs"...either mages or marksmen. They're melee AND relatively squishy, so it's only fair.

Thirdly, Yasuo's actually a mid-game carry. He slumps off by late-game because his passive cuts his own late-game damage output, but it also gets him to his mid-game spike rather quickly. He's great for racing to mid-game and shutting the game down, but not the best for late-game prowess. GP, Yi, and Fiora make better late-game skirmishers.

Third, I question the necessity of a "carry" champion in every team. With games becoming increasingly fast-paced, victories are often decided within the laning phase or just after, where early- and mid-game champions are at their strongest, and where late-game champions haven't yet come online. Banking everything on early game power should be a valid strategy, just as it should be to have a pure late-game comp (there should also be, and there are, late-game champions in every class, not just marksmen or light fighters or whatever). The fact that a "carry" class is still so essential to the game, when matches end way before late-game even begins, suggests that marksmen aren't simply picked because they're strong late game, but because they're just strong overall, including in lane, and including in the mid game.

Even if you want to bank your shit in the early game, you have early game carries like Quinn and Lucian. The point is that someone's there to help take towers and provide more sustained damage rather than burst damage. The reason why people take marksmen every game isn't necessarily that they're gonna roflstomp you 80% of the time, but more because your team stands a good chance of falling off hard without one even if you don't get stomped by them. If you don't want this niche to be filled by a marksman, that's fine in my eyes, but as you're proving to me, you guys just don't want carries in your games AT ALL.

RalanrJun 7, 20173 votes

To be fair, most of the backlash for Mordekaiser was not that a melee bot laner existed, but that he was turned into one when he was originally a solo laner.

Personally, I feel the marksmen class is too closely designed to be the "carry" which leads to less diversity not only in bot lane, but in other lanes. It's sometimes too risky to play a melee carry top if you have an adc bot since you could end up losing a frontline. ADCs also often take priority in peel and protection because most of the community views them as the carry that must be protected. So while someone is babying the adc, the melee carry is getting ganked by three people.

The most annoying thing imo is that Riot doesn't seem interested in releasing a marksman that doesn't function as a carry in general. The only time marksmen don't act as carries are when the class as a whole is doing poorly. You normally don't pick a utility marksmen for mainly their utility, just their damage in the current meta.

Teridax68Jun 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Remember Morde when he WAS a meta bot laner? The entire Morde community came together solely to push him back to the solo lanes. The point of this thread is that if people don't want marksmen to be required in every game, you need a different type of champ in the bot lane in their stead...but who the hell is that gonna be? No one likes melee carries, jugs being strong in the bot lane will probably set off the warning sirens (again), and mages are hard to even put down there. Why bother whining in the first place?

Morde was asked to be placed back into solo laning because he was never meant to be a duo lane champion, and was shoehorned into being a duo bot laner completely arbitrarily, in a manner that seriously displeased his playerbase. I made a very clear point that any champion should be able to replace marksmen in bot lane, and what needs to be targeted is marksman dominance there, not some imaginary problem with every other class that you're trying to create. I also explained the reasons behind melee carries being unpopular, so you attempting to trot that point out again without addressing them shows you aren't truly interested in having a proper discussion on the subject.

{quoted}

The term for "light fighter" now is "skirmisher". Lil faster to type. Just a heads up of sorts.

I am well aware, I just think the term does not adequately describe the fantasy or general playstyle of light fighters, and would be more appropriate for duel-oriented marksmen like Quinn or Kindred, which is why I don't use it here.

{quoted}

Secondly, they aren't balanced around marksmen specifically more than they're balanced around "dealing with ranged champs"...either mages or marksmen. They're melee AND relatively squishy, so it's only fair.

Yasuo's Wind Wall is literally designed to counter ranged attacks, and light fighters are all designed around marksman itemization. I have made this point already in the above post, you can't just pretend it didn't happen and follow up with an unsubstantiated statement.

{quoted}

Thirdly, Yasuo's actually a mid-game carry. He slumps off by late-game because his passive cuts his own late-game damage output, but it also gets him to his mid-game spike rather quickly. He's great for racing to mid-game and shutting the game down, but not the best for late-game prowess. GP, Yi, and Fiora make better late-game skirmishers.

If you look at top lane Yasuo's win rate, it starts out high and dips harshly up to the ~25-minute mark, before rising equally steeply towards the ~30-minute mark and onwards. Mid lane Yasuo's win rate just keeps increasing from start to finish, so your point is wrong in addition to being completely irrelevant to the discussion.

{quoted}

Even if you want to bank your shit in the early game, you have early game carries like Quinn and Lucian. The point is that someone's there to help take towers and provide more sustained damage rather than burst damage. The reason why people take marksmen every game isn't necessarily that they're gonna roflstomp you 80% of the time, but more because your team stands a good chance of falling off hard without one even if you don't get stomped by them.

Quinn and Lucian still have strong late games in addition to strong early games, and the only metric by which their late game falls off is when compared to other marksmen. The same can be said for Graves and even Kindred pre-rework. As mentioned in the above post, again, marksmen are not the only late-game champions out there, they just happen to be the designated carry class, and so are naturally given a late game that eclipses everyone else's. They are also not the only providers of DPS, as that is also the core function of fighters, yet we can all agree marksmen tend to outdamage pretty much any fighter.

{quoted}

If you don't want this niche to be filled by a marksman, that's fine in my eyes, but as you're proving to me, you guys just don't want carries in your games AT ALL.

The only thing you are proving here is that you are desperately afraid at the thought of not having a marksman on your team, and interpret any desire to tone down their current excessive presence in the game as an attempt to ruin marksmen altogether. The thing is, I don't dislike marksmen, and I do want to see them thrive: I am happy to see team comps with 3+ marksmen, as well as marksmen in different roles, including as junglers as supports. What I want to see, however, is some reciprocity in this: I'm okay with teams with multiple marksmen as long as the game environment also allows no-marksman teams, and I want to see more than just marksmen as viable carries in the game. There are 6 classes in the game, yet only 5 positions per team, so ditching at least one class is inevitable, it's just that in the game's current state, making marksmen part of that interchangeable pool of champions is still considered sacrilegious.

If you look at every other MOBA, which manages to have carries without making them exclusive to a single class among the roster (they also have viable, carry-less team comps), it's obvious that this can also be traced as the cause of significantly more diverse and varied games. Really, League's issues of repetition, lack of diversity, etc. are of its own making, and its rigid, marksman-centric team comp meta is largely responsible for this. What I and other players are pushing for isn't really all that ridiculous: we just want marksmen to be treated along the same rules as the other classes, balanced around more than just their bot lane environment, and allowed to be more flexible when factored into team compositions. For you, apparently, that's too much to ask.

VoraciousXJun 7, 20173 votes

My main issue with Marksmen is the fact that crit items basically make marksmen able to burst more than assassins can. I think that's also one reason why a lot of people hate Yasuo, he gets 2x the effectiveness of one of the most annoying item builds in the game. There's also not much counterplay to being right clicked from range especially when you have abilities that slow enemies and speed you up Quinn in addition to your range keeping you from being dived on. Then there's guys who can one shot you with one Q Draven . SOME Marksmen are fair Xayah Ezreal KogMaw Corki Jhin because they require a lot more than just right clicking and have plenty of counterplay built into their kits, but a large amount of them mostly rely on enhanced auto attacks or attack speed boosts which enable their right click nature moreso than others allowing them to pump out insane amounts of damage thanks to crit while the champions meant to get on top of them either have the tools to do so Talon Evelynn or have a decent amount of delayed damage to where unless they're so far ahead late game it doesn't matter or they just get burst down by the people they're meant to burst down, or they're Shaco who just won't be likely to one shot anyone if they have defenses at all and started building tank because of it.

EcchiOtakuTMJun 7, 20172 votes

? I thought we were done with marksmen being required, we finally got a real mage in the botlane. Ziggs. Balanced, does a dam good job when played right, and properly opened up mage in bot-lane playstyle like how ivern brought back utility junglers(albeit nunu never really left, it wasn't really the utility design rito had in mind).

sheldonbunnyJun 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

? I thought we were done with marksmen being required, we finally got a real mage in the botlane. Ziggs. Balanced, does a dam good job when played right, and properly opened up mage in bot-lane playstyle like how ivern brought back utility junglers(albeit nunu never really left, it wasn't really the utility design rito had in mind).

The issue is Ziggs is the only one that really fits that. He has the ability to take towers very well. Most mages do not. Additionally his playrate in botlane has dropped immensely. It was yet another trend of FotM. Those types that follow those already have moved on.

EcchiOtakuTMJun 7, 20172 votes

Well azir was suppose to fit, but they messed up on how much bugs he had and how much potential in EVERYTHING he had.

Shame to see him harshly nerfed, but they did originally want him as a mage marksmen which is why he had 2 different(now one) ways to interact with a turret, like how ziggs gets a passive and satchel to do so.

Also although it was FotM, it does still find very good success if one wishes to main it. I think it could open up a path for the future especially if rito succeeds with azir's next incarnation or attempt another mage marksmen(I refuse to acknowledge morde btw, cause that was way too forced).

On a side note, I personally think they went wrong making azir so heavily AS emphasized AS makes DPS scale extremely well and sort of unpredictable. If azir were made more as a commander but soldiers attacked by their own will, he probably could've had more consistent and balancable damage and became the bot laner rito envisioned at the start since they could fix mana cost, and he wouldn't be using his high AS+nashors to also take out towers while his soldiers suicided into it additionally.

sheldonbunnyJun 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well azir was suppose to fit, but they messed up on how much bugs he had and how much potential in EVERYTHING he had.

Shame to see him harshly nerfed, but they did originally want him as a mage marksmen which is why he had 2 different(now one) ways to interact with a turret, like how ziggs gets a passive and satchel to do so.

Also although it was FotM, it does still find very good success if one wishes to main it. I think it could open up a path for the future especially if rito succeeds with azir's next incarnation or attempt another mage marksmen(I refuse to acknowledge morde btw, cause that was way too forced).

On a side note, I personally think they went wrong making azir so heavily AS emphasized AS makes DPS scale extremely well and sort of unpredictable. If azir were made more as a commander but soldiers attacked by their own will, he probably could've had more consistent and balancable damage and became the bot laner rito envisioned at the start since they could fix mana cost, and he wouldn't be using his high AS+nashors to also take out towers while his soldiers suicided into it additionally.

I could see how Azir's original intention was that. That poor bird really is a mess right now. Hopefully they sort him out in the future.

I do agree that Ziggs is a viable alternative to the traditional marksmen. However not all supports synergize well with him. Additionally you need to compensate for the attack damage elsewhere on the team. A majority of either type of damage makes it too easy for the enemy to defend against.

HeeroTXJun 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Additionally his playrate in botlane has dropped immensely. It was yet another trend of FotM. Those types that follow those already have moved on.

This may be part of why you don't see it more often. Frankly speaking, people get "bored" too easily and Riot doesn't wanna spend time every patch making the "new" mage tower taker for the people who just wanna keep playing different random comps all the time.