Why people are thinking that armor pene is useless?

KONO RUBICK DA·Jan 8, 2016·17 votes·1,783 views

I played with an ADC main friend, his 3 first items as were , and he was against + , i asked him why he didn't get for 1300 gold and upgraded it later, he said that armor pene has become useless....

listen, old LW gave 35% armor pene, that means if the enemy had 200 armor, it removed nearly 60 armor. Now it gives 40% bonus armor pene, tanks have in average 70 base armor, if the enemy malphite had 200 armor, LW will give you 130*0.4= 52 armor pene, that's just 8 less armor, but hey now lord dominik also gives 15% bonus damage against tanks.

you have no escuse for not buying against the enemy 300 armor

38 Comments

Princess EmmaJan 8, 20169 votes

He probably ready some convincing post or claim somewhere saying that armor penetration was useless and just stuck to that.

Some people just like building more damage or other items that have more appeal to them, even if a different item would help more.

It is common for people to follow traditional builds, which isn't bad, but they fail to utilize and recognize situational items that would help them more.

item 3001 isn't a traditional item that Ahri would build. If Ahri is going up against Annie and gets nuked each and every single time she gets to lane; it would make sense for her to buy a item 1057 to negate some of her damage and build into so she can still build damage while being tankier, but Ahri doesn't do that because it is not what they traditionally build and instead buy the item 1058 so they can get a item 3285

...

If things are going smoothly or not too bad, building traditional is fine, but when shit hits the fan or you are struggling, building situational is better.

Get any burst mage and try killing a Galio without building or having any magic penetration. See how long it takes.

DorkunedAurasJan 8, 20167 votes

Get any burst mage and try killing a without building or having any magic penetration. See how long it takes.

My friends tried that once. Galio eventually jumped into a tower to reduce his hp slightly out of pity.

AbusingMyRightsJan 8, 20161 votes

with bulwark on the lazer towers you actually can gain life while being hit lol

Sire HippingtonJan 8, 20162 votes

only for a 'short' time. The thing with lazor towers is that their start damage is pathetic, but if they stack up, they actually deal alot damage. People just don't notice that cause theyy rarly are in range long enough to take the full stacked damage.

DorkunedAurasJan 9, 20161 votes

I dunno, I was once a fed mundo, and I 1v3ed under their inhib turrets, leaving with 2 kills. Then again, I was REALLY REALLY fed.

Shrek LuigiJan 8, 20161 votes

I don't see mid Galo much, but when I lane against hin I usually just farm the lane and ignore him/dodge his nuke since he's otherwise really bad at locking kills in lane. Doesn't take much to burn his flash either, which gimps his kill-lock even more.

He's so fun to play though, aside from being clunky and having a Wet Noodle attack for an E :^)

Z StatisticJan 8, 20165 votes

70?

dafuq. There are only 3 champions that have less than 70 armor at lvl 18. And LW gives 30% bonus armor penetration. It is strictly worse than old LW. LDR gives 40% bonus armor pen. Additionally, LW does virtually nothing vs squishies. That's the point of LDR after; it's solely for killing tanks. But unless the tank can actually pose a threat through damage or if the bigger threat is to flank and dive the carries because you're behind, LDR is not going to help you do that.

Old LW was bought because tanks were a thing and LW was still useful vs squishies when coupled with flat pen. New LDR is now a niche item than not only depends on the enemy's defensive itemization but also on your teamfighting strategy. If "sucks" means "not ubiquitous," then LW and LDR do indeed suck.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 8, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Menea Calais,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uimWUJTF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-08T17:03:06.570+0000)

70?

dafuq. There are only 3 champions that have less than 70 armor at lvl 18. And LW gives 30% bonus armor penetration. It is strictly worse than old LW. LDR gives 40% bonus armor pen. Additionally, LW does virtually nothing vs squishies. That's the point of LDR after; it's solely for killing tanks. But unless the tank can actually pose a threat through damage or if the bigger threat is to flank and dive the carries because you're behind, LDR is not going to help you do that.

Old LW was bought because tanks were a thing and LW was still useful vs squishies when coupled with flat pen. New LDR is now a niche item than not only depends on the enemy's defensive itemization but also on your teamfighting strategy. If "sucks" means "not ubiquitous," then LW and LDR do indeed suck.

talking about the upgrades

Spaceman5pffJan 8, 20165 votes

It would make sense for new LW to be STRICTLY worse than the old one. The old one was a full item worth over 2300 gold, the new one is a component worth about 1300

ZeroleraJan 8, 20165 votes

Armor Pen is not useless - it's just the current meta has been favoring tanks who stack health (looking at you Mundo and Illaoi) and if they don't build any armor it's not as efficient. Against that match up your adc was simply an idiot.

SpoofghoulJan 8, 20164 votes

You know what the funny thing is, tanks tend to not bother with armor since there is sooooooo damn much armorpen that buying any extra armor is pretty darn useless, if they ever do build armor then its usually stuff like Randuins, Deadmansplate or Sunfire because these also give alot of hp. And since tanks are not bothering with armor anymore because armorpen is so abundant in runes masteries and items then as a consequence this same armorpen became useless x'D

ZeroleraJan 8, 20161 votes

I have to disagree pretty strongly with that statement. The reason why tanks aren't bothering with armor anymore is because the keystone favors health stacking not armor. There is no more armor pen now than there's every been in the past. The ability to have an extra 120 damage (4k health) that heals you for that amount every 4 seconds however is quite useful.

LankPantsJan 9, 20161 votes

There is no more armor pen now than there's every been in the past.

Yes there is. The new LW upgrades make any armour you buy 5% weaker (10% after the next patch). It directly disincentives buying armour since your base armour (which is 80-90 for a tank anyway) is automatically in effect.

The ability to have an extra 120 damage (4k health) that heals you for that amount every 4 seconds however is quite useful.

A 120 HP heal is the same as a 60 HP heal if you take half the damage after healing for 60. Obviously the damage is better if you stack HP but the actual effective heal is relativity static. This theory pops up all the time on champs with strong heals where the heal is not %HP based. They generally want more resists to make their heal worth more rather than HP, which effectively dilutes their heal.

Sire HippingtonJan 8, 20164 votes

cause people generaly are bad a thinking outside the box and thus adapting to different situations. in a generall game, LW is a bad choice, because most oponents, even the tanky ones, most likely only have ~60armor from items toll the game is prettymuch decided, and most of the time only one opponent from 5 has some more armor. This is what generally has been complained about and this is why many consider LW as a weak item. The fact that it is prefectly fine IF your oponents have higher amounts of bonus armor and get problematic get's completely ignored by the majority of the players. They simply fail to adapt and use the given counter in such a situation.

though this isn't a arpen exclusive problem. Only few really adapt builts or skill-paths depending on the situation. this is also why some items stay incredibl niche besides beeing quite awsome in certain situations.

p.s. your math is off, 35%pen vs 200 armor is 70, not 60, and most tanks have 80+base-armor, so new LW(upgrades) gives 48, which is 22 less vs a 200 armor tank.

LankPantsJan 9, 20161 votes

in a generall game, LW is a bad choice, because most oponents, even the tanky ones, most likely only have ~60armor from items toll the game is prettymuch decided, and most of the time only one opponent from 5 has some more armor.

What game are you playing?

Just a Deadmans+Tabi+9 armour Runes gives 89 armour and thats standard, almost rush items for a tank. Late into the game a tank will have around 150-200 bonus armour, depending on if they go for a Frozen Heart/Thornmail or a Randuins.

I'll post some maths here on why armour pen is still very strong.

A level 18 Sejuani who's built a Deadmans, Tabi and Randuins for armour has 80.5 base armour and 174 bonus armour, for a total of 255 Armour.

Without any pen 100/(100+255)=28.17% damage With old LW 100/(100+(255x0.65))=37.63% damage With Lord Dominik's pre patch 1.15x(100/(100+81+(174x0.6)))=40.29% damage With Lord Dominik's post patch 1.15x(100/(100+81+(174x0.55)))=41.56% damage

Notice how Lord Dominik's has always came out stronger VS tanks than LW. It's still a strong item, it's just now restricted to its job of being an anti tank item rather than destroying everything.

Sire HippingtonJan 9, 20162 votes

i see alot tanks without tabi, and then its deadmans+runes+masterie, which is ~60 and i rarly have any games that aren't decided befor the 3 item point is reached. If the game reaches a point there the opoosing tank has two major armor items and your biggest problem is getting rid of him, then LW is a good choice. If a mundo gets fed and runs around with randuins and deadmens, by all means, get the damn mortal reminder. If Seju gets fed and runs around with randuins and deadmens, bring lord dominik's regards .

But in by far the most games i played since preseasn, it's more an off tank(if any tank at all) that has deadman's as only armor item in his first 3 items, and at that point the game usually is already over.

LankPantsJan 9, 20161 votes

i see alot tanks without tabi,

What other boots would you buy? Merc Treads got nerfed into oblivion, at 20% tenacity why would you? Especially considering armour is generally a better stat than MR and Tabi give more of it for the same gold.

So that leaves Swifties and Ionians. Generally on most champs Ionians are the better choice out of the two. They're not bad, they fill a niche and are great on champs who are overly flash reliant like Amumu, but they're probably still the second best boots on almost every tank.

Then there's Swifties, which I think are very situational. These are the boots you buy if you're a Mundo against an all Freljord team. You basically need to be an immobile champ against tons of slows for these boots to ever be worth it.

Generally I'd say Ninja Tabi are going to be the best boots in almost every game. I think theres a couple of champs who can just ignore them and go other boots, for example I think Ionian's are better on champs like Amumu and Shen who like to use a lot of sums but for most tanks Ninjas are userally the best choice.

But in by far the most games i played since preseasn, it's more an off tank(if any tank at all) that has deadman's as only armor item in his first 3 items, and at that point the game usually is already over.

A good tank player just won't let the game slip. You can force a neutral game even if you're a weaker champ, you just need to know how to. Once you stall out the game it becomes decided at a higher number of items, which is in a tanks favour.

My games almost always go to at least 40 minutes and I have a very good winrate in these longer games, just because I rarely get snowballed on. If I die I just don't die again, it's actually super easy to stall a game out if you just adopt a "don't die" mentality over a "kill" mentality, and most good tank players do this.

Sire HippingtonJan 9, 20162 votes

What other boots would you buy?

Mercs not only give tenacity, but also mr. If you face an ap-heavy comp, they are worth it already for the mr. Also, as mentioned befor, people are generally not great at adapting, many buy them just cause they always bought them back then the tenacity was impactfull.

Ionian boots are quite powerfull for many utillity focused tanks, as they scale great with cdr and usually have high playmakeing potential with tp/flash. A Malph with ionian+distortion rush and the summoner-cdr masterie is a scarry thing if used well. Also, 300g lower costs are quite a reason on an item that you want to get early.

You seem to forget that boots of swiftness got buffed. They are incredible good right now, especially for tanky guys that usually have lowish mobillity. 20 more ms and slowresistance makes it really hard to stay away from a darius, trundle or garen, and again they cost 300 less gold than ninjas and co.

Sorcboots are great on many ap tanks, as they usually have pretty high magic basedamage. A mao or malph with those boots will have serious damage vs squishy opponents

Some very as-affine champs like irelia can use berserkers pretty well, 30% as is more than a recursive bow gives for the same cost, with ms rather than some mor on-hit.

A good tank player just won't let the game slip. You can force a neutral game even if you're a weaker champ, you just need to know how to. Once you stall out the game it becomes decided at a higher number of items, which is in a tanks favour.

Yea...just no. Tanks are prettxy poor at staling games, unless they have powerfull disengage. Controll, utillity and kite mages/supports are best to stall out, as they have ranged Waveclear and ranged cc to prevent opponents from getting an engage. And no, more items is not really in a tanks favor, as damage items still scale better. Most tanky champs have a lower winrate in longer games than in short games. the exeptions are mostly those with huge aoe cc, as lategame gets more teamfight focused and strong aoe-cc wins teamfights. Mostly because it means you don't need to be that tanky as you can burst down a high damage threat befor it can even do damage.

My games almost always go to at least 40 minutes and I have a very good winrate in these longer games, just because I rarely get snowballed on. If I die I just don't die again, it's actually super easy to stall a game out if you just adopt a "don't die" mentality over a "kill" mentality, and most good tank players do this.

didn't know games in ocianaia are 1v1... I also have a rather high winrate in long games, as it means no one did feed. my problem is rarly getting snowballed upon my self, but more one or more other lanes going bad. It helps little if you can stall out your own lane if another lane looses hard. And if you don't play a tank, stalling out your lane, especially if jungler and laner are somewhat coordinated is not really an option, so you can't really blame other lanes much for looseing hard once they loose if you don't apply any pressure in your own lane.

LankPantsJan 9, 20161 votes

Tanks are prettxy poor at staling games, unless they have powerfull disengage.

All tanks do, at least in a suicidal way. Sometimes trading one guy for not having a huge disadvantage is worth it.

Most tanky champs have a lower winrate in longer games than in short games. the exeptions are mostly those with huge aoe cc

Which is most tanks. To clarify a tank is a durable champ who relies on their CC to function. Mundo isn't a tank, he's a bruiser.

There are single target CC tanks, but they're mostly supports so their itemisation isn't that important.

Sire HippingtonJan 9, 20161 votes

Which is most tanks. To clarify a tank is a durable champ who relies on their CC to function. Mundo isn't a tank, he's a bruiser.

which is why i talked about 'tanky champs', as the baseline of this discussion is LW, which is bought against tankiness, not only vs tanks.

LankPantsJan 10, 20161 votes

which is why i talked about 'tanky champs', as the baseline of this discussion is LW, which is bought against tankiness, not only vs tanks.

Well then he doesn't care about stalling out the game so whether or not he's good at it really doesn't matter.

The fact is champs like Sejuani, Amumu and Nautilus are pretty good at stalling game until a point where they can get more armour, so they stall out a game to a point where they can get more amour.

In the case of this sort of champion if the player on them is good the game will be decided at a point later on, at a point where they have more armour stacked. That's the point I'm trying to make, the fact that a Mundo probably won't do this is completely irrelevant.

Earl EulrichJan 9, 20162 votes

play rammus, stack 400armor - and still get killed within 3sec by a Zed running around with IE instead of pen. Pen is not bad, it´s just not ridiculous enough anymore compared to crit...

AhristocatsJan 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uimWUJTF,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-01-09T01:24:05.036+0000)

play rammus, stack 400armor - and still get killed within 3sec by a Zed running around with IE instead of pen. Pen is not bad, it´s just not ridiculous enough anymore compared to crit...

you forgot to say that you had 400 hp

Earl EulrichJan 9, 20163 votes

yea, cinderhulk, randuins, ninja tabbies, frozen heart and thornmail really shouldn´t give you any survivability vs physical dmg, i know.

vIbvdOwbkoJan 8, 20161 votes

I don't know how you screw up simple math like that but 200 * 0.35 = 70.

It's not nearly 60. It's a flat 70.

D357R0Y3RJan 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't know how you screw up simple math like that but 200 * 0.35 = 70.

It's not nearly 60. It's a flat 70.

17 less armor pene

gg riot, armor pene is useless

thats niceJan 8, 20161 votes

I dont know that is dumb and I am an ADC main. Yes armour pen isn't as useful as it used to be. IMO if there is only 1 person on enemy team going armour which happens quite a bit, I dont get LW or Lord Dom. If there is more than 1 building armour on enemy team then yes i am getting these items.

Another thing is why did your friend get item 3142 & item 3094 before getting item 3031 thats isn't smart IMO and most others would agree I believe. I can see getting ER and then FC then IE, but should usually always get ER>IE>FC if not you losing out a lot of damage.

Also when I play draven or Graves I run Armour pen marks when I play them, you basically deal true damage the whole time.

AhristocatsJan 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=o Stormy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uimWUJTF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-08T17:22:54.130+0000)

I dont know that is dumb and I am an ADC main. Yes armour pen isn't as useful as it used to be. IMO if there is only 1 person on enemy team going armour which happens quite a bit, I dont get LW or Lord Dom. If there is more than 1 building armour on enemy team then yes i am getting these items.

Another thing is why did your friend get & before getting thats isn't smart IMO and most others would agree I believe. I can see getting ER and then FC then IE, but should usually always get ER>IE>FC if not you losing out a lot of damage.

Also when I play draven or Graves I run Armour pen marks when I play them, you basically deal true damage the whole time.

he probably wanted to get 40% cdr with lucian,

thats niceJan 8, 20161 votes

I mean i guess, I would much rather get item 3508 item 3031 item 3094 W/ item 3158

LankPantsJan 9, 20161 votes

Why not just item 3508 > item 3031 > item 3086 > item 3133 > item 3094

That seems like a better way to go about it to me

MunchCrunchLunchJan 8, 20161 votes

isn't the current LW getting buffed to 45% bonus armor penetration. btw malphite base armor is 92. anyway the current lw is only obviously good against tanks and champs that build a lot of armor. however. its not good to kill squishies because they just dont build armor. unlike voidstaff that removes 35% of total MR not to mention most champs have either 31 or 53 MR which means you'd be essentially doing true damage if you buy haunting guise and the sorcerer boots. and if the champ has a base MR of 53 you'd be doing true damage if you build those two items. and have the precision mastery and M pen runes. and maybe voidstaff. that unless they build MR items. which is why squishies get one shot by mages later in the game because all of that damage is essentially true damage. however if you tank against adcs. its nearly impossible compared to tanking against mages. you can kill mages as a tank. but not adcs. unless your malphite or rammus.

Got New GlassesJan 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

isn't the current LW getting buffed to 45% bonus armor penetration. btw malphite base armor is 92. anyway the current lw is only obviously good against tanks and champs that build a lot of armor. however. its not good to kill squishies because they just dont build armor. unlike voidstaff that removes 35% of total MR not to mention most champs have either 31 or 53 MR which means you'd be essentially doing true damage if you buy haunting guise and the sorcerer boots. and if the champ has a base MR of 53 you'd be doing true damage if you build those two items. and have the precision mastery and M pen runes. and maybe voidstaff. that unless they build MR items. which is why squishies get one shot by mages later in the game because all of that damage is essentially true damage. however if you tank against adcs. its nearly impossible compared to tanking against mages. you can kill mages as a tank. but not adcs. unless your malphite or rammus.

45% bonus armor pene? that's nearly a yasuo ultimate

Shrek LuigiJan 8, 20161 votes

Youmuu's is a solid pick against teams that lack champions who stack armor. I'd have definitely opted for a LDR/Mortal Reminder against those two but it still works sometimes--especially on marksmen with really crazy all-ins.

My main beef with Arpen right now is that AD casters can't really itemize it early on without suffering. They're either gated by their mana and need to rush something for that, or would benefit more from flat-AD for dual-purpose clear speed and damage-scaling in the case of junglers. A quick Brutalizer early on went a very long way, but now it isn't an option :^(