If Riot is going to update Vanguards next, here are some champions I think should get looked at.

Ralanr··12 votes·1,680 views

Note: this list is based on my personal opinion on the state of balance for each champion.

Vanguards are described as your offensive tanks by Riot. They are the initiators, the engagers, the Malphite player that screams "DYNAMIC ENTRY!!!" Whenever he ults a five man team from a bush.

Basically what the Kool Aid man does in commercials where he didn't give a shit about property damage.

Here is a list of Vanguards:

Vanguards

Malphite Amumu Leona Zac Gragas Rammus Mega Gnar Sejuani Rek’Sai Sion Nautilus Skarner

I personally think that the main defining ability of a Vanguard is AoE hard CC of some kind. Sion's got his R and Q, Malphite R, Zac's E, etc. Warden also have AoE hard CC, but their kits are probably focused for more peel and protection (though that doesn't stop it from being used offensively. CC is very versatile).

So which tanks do I personally believe need a look at in a roster update?

Malphite: I'm sure there are Malphite mains that will disagree with me and go into the details of everything he provides (and I welcome it. Knowledge is power) but outside of his ult I just don't see much impact from him.

This isn't because his kit is bad, he's basically in the top 5 of champions that give AD the middle finger. But by god is his ult just crazy dumb. As a Sion main, I'm honestly jealous of how reliable Malphite's ult actually is. If your team is remotely competent to follow up (but it's also SoloQ so idk) then you've basically won the teamfight before it starts. Not to mention its 100% AP scaling for Mage Malphite burst. Squishies with low MR can basically get killed by the ult alone.

Not sure what I'd change beyond really. But I think a goal should be to make his ult less reliable so he can have power put somewhere else in his kit.

Amumu: I personally feel like Amumu could use more encouragement to actually touch people rather than just get close enough for them to step in the puddle of his tears. His passive at least is meant to encourage hitting people to take their MR so he hurts more, but how often does Amumu really auto attack outside of the jungle clears?

Personally I think his E and passive should be swapped, but I haven't given too much thought on how this could work.

Zac: Change his %health damage to something that's actually avoidable in combat. It's the same issue I have with the Warden Maokai. I'm all for tanks having %health damage so long as it's avoidable. As much as people hate Poppy's Q, the blast is avoidable on the second explosion. Sion's W is also a great example of this. You could also change this with Amumu's W, but him crying is just really iconic to him so I'm not sure what you'd replace it with.

Zac's slingshot ability is fine. It's countered by deep warding and now has a landing indicator.

These are just my opinions and I didn't put as much into this as I could have because I'm on a phone and a bit bored.

Final thought: notice how my only complaint on damage is when it is too reliable. I have no problem with tanks have high base damages (even if they are high enough to really hurt squishies later in the game. I mean...what do you expect when you don't have any defensive gear as a glass Cannon? To just naturally outscale tank damage? Nope, damage just outscales durability late game. Against bruisers and other tanks their damage is actually minimal. And it always takes tanks longer to kill someone than a full damage character or a bruiser) as long as that base damage is a bit unreliable. This is why I personally find Sion as the best designed tank (as much as you Sion Carry mains hate it) because all of his CC and damage is unreliable compared to other tanks. I think Sion's design should be taken into some consideration.

BRING ON THE DOWNVOTES!!!

60 Comments

Rebonack4 votes

Honestly Rek is about as much of a Vanguard as Camilla or Jax or Aatrox are.

She was supposed to be a Diver, but Riot fumbled her kit pretty hard.

Ralanr3 votes

Yeah. They plan on bringing her back to diver status.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. They plan on bringing her back to diver status.

The problem, as I recall, is that her damage was tuned too high when she first came out. Both base and scaling. Riot chose to cripple her scaling damage and leave her base damage more or less intact. As a result, pure tank knockup-bot was the way to go on her.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Tanks need looked at in general; some don't scale up nearly enough to remain a wall, others obviously have abuse-abilities. But you complained about them doing conditional damage? Tanks should deal significant damage if you let them. Good examples would be sion, poppy, & tahm.

Ralanr1 votes

Yes, they should deal damage through specific conditions. I don't think they should have %health scalings on abilities that are near impossible to miss like Maokai's root.

I agree with your examples. I just think that we should give tanks more room to outplay their opponent and give their opponent more counterplay to their damage.

Defensive scaling is definitely a primary target that should be focused though.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

If they didn't, how would one tank kill another? Real tanks are frequently armed with armor piercing shells for that purpose too.

Maokai however is also a big target that's pretty immobile otherwise (next to the slowest base movement speed); meanwhile assassins got plenty of mobility, the majority of marksmen got mobility abilities, a few mages got mobility, ext. Point & click abilities are pretty much the only reliable counter to slippery targets; however timing your mobility against him in particular is what you use against him. He wants to dive you? Make him go farther than he wants so he's isolated from his team.

I can agree there, except riot made that pretty useless last season. Why do you think it's been referred to as a burst meta these days? Whoever instakills the enemy first wins.

Ralanr1 votes

I see nothing wrong with a Maokai having a point and click root. Just that it's his point and click root that has the %health damage.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

His is hardly chunk worthy, compared to others' out there.

Ralanr1 votes

It's at Max 13% without the AP scaling. Sion's is just 14% at max for comparison.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Maokai's is single target that puts him in more danger afterwords; sion's is a shield first, then aoe after a 2 second delay. Maokia's has a little less than a 1/3 AP ratio as a percentage, sion's ratio is a flat bonus of 2/5 his AP. The similarity is that both are magic damage, which squishies can get an abundance of without sacrificing much.

50000000000000002 votes

I think an important thing to note here is that Maokai's snare tends to be to lock down priority targets/squishies, rather than to brawl with the enemy frontline. The %HP damage would definitely make more sense on his Q than his W.

But then, his %HP damage becomes too reliable. Making his E do %HP damage is... interesting? It seems really weird to do that though.

I agree his kit and how he uses his spells in combos feel pretty fluid, but a single target %HP damage doesn't really fit a tank's kit, in my opinion.

legionnaire991 votes

Skarner Sion are not vanguards

Ralanr9 votes

Skarner: Riot did say that they were no longer comfortable with having Skarner as a juggernaut, so they swapped him to the vanguard class (hence why he is on that list).

Sion: Not a Vanguard?

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg

I'm genuinely curious as to where you got that impression.

Skelenth1 votes

Maybe the "Undead Juggernaut" thing? His epithet can be misleading

Ralanr3 votes

If that's the reason then I'm honestly sad that people still think that.

It's like Riot doesn't do clarity well! It's not like the made the rank 7 Tank mastery title be Juggernaut

Oh wait...fuck.

50000000000000001 votes

To be fair, Sion passive makes him play like a Juggernaut (easily kited, but do tons of damage with sustain in close range). Thus, "Undead Juggernaut."

But yeah he's definitely a Vanguard and not a Juggernaut

MinaZer02 votes

They will do Divers next, its too much of a coincidence of how many Divers they are tweaking Warwick Shyvana (Divernaut™) and now with the release of Camille . Divers are highly likely next on Mid Season class update, they have even been talking about how many of them they plan on changing, Irelia Aatrox Diana Evelynn

Ralanr4 votes

I personally hope for Vanguards because they said they'd be looking at defense itemization.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Yeah Diver itemization is fine atm, even though divers themselves could use work.

Tank Itemization is a bit wierd, and Tanks themselves could use some work. Specifically Amumu Galio Nunu Malphite Rammus Sejuani

On the Sejuani topic, I don't think her kit is really a problem by it's own virtue, but it has lots of functional overlap with Malphite and it would be nice to see her more individualized by her offensive nature in the AOE initiator category. While Malphite wants to bring extra defense, Sejuani wants to bring more damage. If this means Sejuani needs to be generally squishier, with more conditional tankiness, then fine! But right now, they both sit there waiting for their ult, then look to start a fight with ult, then go back to waiting for ult.

Ralanr4 votes

Honestly I think it's Sejuani and Amumu who have too much overlap.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

that's pretty fair. I would like to see Amumu have a bit more identity as well, though I don't have any ideas on how that would work. Does Amumu want to be a true tank? Does he want to build AP and blow up the enemy team? These are important questions to start with.

Ralanr2 votes

Personally? True tank. I don't mind him having some AP scalings, but I think he should be more focused on being a tank than an angst nuke.

Though angst nuke fits him well.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

It would be interesting to see a design for him that encourages him to try to initiate from flanks.

The idea being, he still wants to teamfight right (Amumu doesn't LIKE being lonely / having no friends) but it is best done if he is nowhere near his team to start the fight. Sorta like Eve is now with her sneak in from the back and dump and AOE slowing %hp nuke playstyle. It might require him to be more of an AP build though.

As it stands right now, we have 3 Champions that want to Engage from a distance with AOE CC and do it regularly from vision: Malphite Sejuani Amumu all do very much the same thing.

The way I see it: Malphite does this, and focuses PURELY on being an unkillable, debuffing machine once he initiates, with slows, and attack speed slows etc. Sejuani does this, and wants to keep dishing out damage before dumping a 5-man slow to keep them from running. Amumu Wants to jump in the the CC then just do some damage.

Malphite is the Vanguard. Sejuani is the Battlemaster (maybe thats it! maybe she needs a more Rallying Cry type of thing. It would fit her lore!)

Amumu is the..... Vanguard?

i think you might be right in that Amumu needs changes.

Sejuani / malphite only need a little more distinction from eachother, but Amumu doesn't really have a niche.

DragonShea1 votes

Ansgt nuke that is a good one. Getting knocked up by a rock hard malphite.

Ferus and Ferrum1 votes

Eve is an assassin with a diver pattern. Given that she recieved changes (literally just her stealth was all that was changed) during the assassin update I'm fairly positive that she wont see changes in the diver class update. Especially since she is slated for a VGU.

DragonShea1 votes

So true about Shyv. She is a juggernaut/diver.

Jeddy0172 votes

It's still up in the air with no official word on which class will be updated next.

DragonShea1 votes

One Skarner is Vanguard/Juggernaut hybrid as he deals decent damage and has good CC and a shield to hold the line. Not to mention his Ult is say "I'll hold 'em while you fuck 'em"

Two: Sion is too bulky to be a jugg, his damage is not that impressive but his Q can be a mini ult and his real ult is any Vanguards wet dream. rushing into the enemy team and making them scream OH SHIT MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!!

Meep Man12 votes

Don't you dare say Sion is a Juggernaut just because of his title

Spaceman5pff2 votes

Well Aren't Vanguards meant to be more Peel / protection focused? Like Galio Maokai

I might be wrong, but I thought that the Heavy Initiators were a seperate subclass

Ralanr10 votes

You're thinking of Wardens. The heavy teamfight initiators are Vanguards.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

gotcha

DragonShea1 votes

Yep Vanguards are the tanker cousins to divers, wanting to go in balls deep and hinder the enemy team to set up kills while taking the hits.

Warden's like to hold the line and anyone that tries to do anything will die. Setting up kills by using the enemy teams aggression against them.

AlistarMilking1 votes

The protectiom tanks are Wardens, like Braum or TahmKench

Hyperiön1 votes

Mega Gnar isn't a vanguard, and absolutely nothing wrong with him.

Ralanr1 votes

I didn't list him as someone I believe needed changes.

50000000000000002 votes

What is Mega Gnar, then? He is definitely a frontline tank who initiates fights.

Hyperiön1 votes

Mega Gnar doesn't initiate, it is too scripted.

For Gnar to get a good ultimate off, there needs to be some other sort of CC down on the field before he can go in.

Unless he flanks them and the enemy doesn't have vision.

Other than that, gnar is very easy to predict, and only has about 20 seconds or so to fight before switching back.

50000000000000002 votes

Nautilus' engage is just as telegraphed, but doesn't mean he's not a vanguard. Same with Skarner, Sion, or even Amumu. That doesn't mean they're not engage tanks (or Vanguards).

Hyperiön1 votes

Nautilus' Ult is point and click, and knocks everyone up. Guaranteed to hit. Same with Amumu if he lands his Q. which has a pretty decent cast range.

Gnar might have the ability to engage, but it is a hell of a lot better when you have a Leona, Sej, Amumu, annie, etc...

50000000000000002 votes

Same could be said of literally everyone. It's easier to hit enemies that are under effects of CC. If Mega Gnar isn't a vanguard, what is he? Warden? Diver? Juggernaut? Battlemage?

Big Lincoln1 votes

sejuani should be made into a fighter

we have enough tanks, it's time for some new blood

rek'sai too

Ralanr6 votes

We have way more fighters than tanks. Too many fighters in fact.

Though I agree on Rek'sai.

Big Lincoln3 votes

i had an idea for rek'sai and her tunnels, i might make a thread for it later to see how it goes over

u tank scums have stolen Sion Poppy RekSai Chogath from their rightful users it's time to give back

Ralanr5 votes

You fighters still make up more of the champion population than us tanks. We're a minority!

Big Lincoln2 votes

reeeeeeeee tanks get out

50000000000000001 votes

Poppy is played more like a fighter than a tank tbh Dive in with E, make sure the enemy can't dash away, and keep hitting them with AA and Q DPS.

DragonShea1 votes

Ain't Rek'sai not a Juggernaut/Diver?

Hyperiön1 votes

Woops, I thought the long list was all the champs you thought should be fixed xD

I got interrupted while reading it so i couldn't read it all xD

Ralanr1 votes

Ah. No problem.

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