There are only 2 assassins with positive winrates

TequilaZombie··15 votes·1,111 views

AP Shaco and Talon Top.

I'm not sure about you, but I find it very alarming that the only assassins doing well are either just abusing itemization like Shaco, or abusing the lack of mobility like Talon.

Meanwhile we have 12 ADCs with positive winrates:

Sivir, Corki, Trist, Vayne, Kog, Jhin, MF, Jinx, Varus, Cait, and Twitch on the Bot Lane. AD Corki on the Mid Lane.


Out of 16 ADCs, we have 11 of them with positive Win Ratios. Out of 13 Assassins, we have 2 of them with positive Win Ratios.

I think either Assassins are a bit undertunned or ADCs are really overtunned right now.

31 Comments

Eedat6 votes

Thats not true. It depends on what you look at.

For example:

http://champion.gg/champion/Leblanc

49.8% win rate right? Thats only on average. Its actually closer to 55% on experienced LeBlanc players.

http://champion.gg/champion/Rengar

47% winr rate? Lol actually 53-57% on experienced Rengos

http://champion.gg/champion/Zed/Middle

? .....same shit.

Getting the idea now? They've actually become high skill cap champions.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Also remember that those stats are all from players at plat or higher ranks

TequilaZombie3 votes

Twitch is breaking the 53% mark at 5-15 games played http://champion.gg/champion/Twitch/ADC

Cait hits 51% at the same mark http://champion.gg/champion/Caitlyn/ADC

Varus seems a bit skewed because of the low number of players with real experience, he he's breaking at 55% win rate at the 5-15 games mark: http://champion.gg/champion/Varus/ADC

Jinx is at 51% at this mark as well http://champion.gg/champion/Jinx/ADC

Just like MF http://champion.gg/champion/MissFortune/ADC

If we take those assassins you mentioned in comparassion:

At the 5-15 games:

LeBlanc is at 47%, Rengar sits at 43%, and Zed at 41%.


Why it spikes so hard at those points is more of a guessing point, but as far as I can tell, it's mostly because Assassins need to be snowballed in order to actually assassinate targets, as being even just doesn't cut it anymore.

Spârky1 votes

but its easier to play adc's at a lower level because people dont know how to punish the adc for bad positioning.

TequilaZombie1 votes

I've came from the depts of Bronze and, as far as I've seen, everyone is busting all their CDs to get the enemy ADC killed, be them in position or not.

Also, this data is from Plat+, hardly low level.

Spârky1 votes

Alrighty this was just my experience because i am an adc main at high bronze low silver elo. Id like to think i could get into gold tho if i tried but for now im a noob so i understand.

Spârky1 votes

I do also think that assassins keep adc's in check so i think its just a phase where adc's are slightly better because assassins aren't the strongest atm. So i dont think adc nerfs are the answer more or less assassin buffs (cant believe i said that because its so freelo playing adc right now i dont have to worry about getting deleted as much)

MissingKayo2 votes

The winrate over experience data doesn't immediately disappear after a patch. Most of those winrates are still HEAVILY influenced by the pre-rework assassins.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Winrate over experience data does not take into accord wins number of wins from previous patches in any way. It is percentage of wins for experienced players for current patch. IDK where did you get this info, but it's simply not true.

MohawkBird1 votes

So you're telling me there are people who have played 125+ within a day or 2 of a patch coming out?

Pupel5 votes

ADC are always over tuned because ADC mains are always whining. while top and jungle mains just keep taking the BS dished out to them. Think about all the years of league. Has there been a season where you could reliably not run a ADC in your team comp? Tanks, Fighters, Assassins and even mages fall in and out of the meta but not ADCs. Also why do you think people like camping bot lane? cause 5/0 vayne is going to out carry that 10/0 darius. Yeah maybe I am a bit salty.

JavelinJoe4 votes

With greater pick-rate come shittier win-rate due to unfamiliar players just trying to be op in a champion class that is not innately OP, but allows for OP-ness if you are competent on the champions and with the playstyle. It just happens like that, and whenever a big change happens, everyone rushes to try it out. Remember how Yorick became popular after his rework? Same thing applies here.

In terms of ADC - Assassins. Every normal game has at least 2 ADCs (one per side), but sometimes 2-3 can be on Just one team meaning sometimes 4+ADCs are in a single game. There usually is at most 2-3 assassins in a game, but not every game even has an assassin. So you get a greater collection of data about how ADC's are balanced while Assassin's balancing data collection is much lower (and currently skewed) in comparison. You also have to remember that just because an ADC is not played in the bot lane, does not mean that the balancing data becomes invalid. Quinn top and Graves jungle are good examples of this.

Assassins are a bit undertunned

This is likely the case, because of what I said above.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Quinn top and Graves jungle are good examples of this.

I left those out on purpose. Mostly because Quinn is leaning more towards an AD Assassin than an ADC right now, and Graves is much closer to an Bursty Bruiser than an ADC.

The same way I left Ahri out because she's much closer to a mage than she is to an assassin.


About the skewed thing: There is still a really huge number of assassin's games being analized. It's not Master Tier Urgot players with over 125 games we're talking here, it's one of the most popular classes in the game as a whole.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Yes that is true, but it is still nowhere near the popularity of ADC. The skill floor is also typically higher for Assassins than ADCs so that likely has something to do with it.

Edge of Daybreak4 votes

The pickrate for top talon is also .38%. That's not really a useful sample size.

Sightless664 votes

There is a problem with your reasoning regarding AD carries. ADC winrates generally being above or below 50% doesn't actually imply that AD carries are strong or weak in the way it might with another class. The reason for this is that every AD carry is always played against another ADC in virtually every game. If ADC A is winning in one game, than ADC B-N is winning in that same game. One winning is another's loss. This is not true for assassins, mages, tanks, fighters or bruisers, who play against teams that don't have any of their class all the time.

What this means is that the ADC class's winrate adjusted proportionally for playrate always sums up to right about 50% (it tends to be very slightly higher given that non-ADC teams are played and tend to win slightly less often than ADC teams). The big determinant in ADC winrates is whether there are incredibly weak or incredibly strong AD carries. If there are very, very weak AD carries, than games played against them will tend to result in wins for most other carries, resulting in a higher than 50% average winrate for carries. We have this right now with Kalista and Lucian, who are boosting everyone else with their 45% winrates. However, in the past, we've had instances where there were 3 really strong AD carries. For examples, I'm thinking of the season 2 days of the holy trinity, who were so good they pushed everyone else's winrates down, even though season 2 was the true golden age for AD carries, although we also saw this a couple patches ago when Varus, Corki, Kog and Trist were all below 50% winrate and Vayne/Twitch were sitting pretty at stupidly high winrates.

Assassins on the other hand are legitimately generally bad, although I will say that they are also more prone to have low winrates even when they're strong (Rengar in particular stands out as a NOT 47% winrate champion right.)

FortisDominus2 votes

The thing about assassins is that they are more difficult to play than AD's. Look at rengar, talon, and zed's winrates when played at 125+ games. the people who just started playing these champions have very low winrates, then check the winrates from the people who "mastered" the champ.

Assassins have very high mobility and damage, in other words they have a high skill ceiling. So yes, their winrates are low when played by a casual player, however, when played by a person who knows how to use that assassins at a very high level, they are very strong and even frustrating to deal with.

Roam Support1 votes

Are you considering noc in your list of assassins because I think noc is a good assassin right now

TequilaZombie1 votes

He's building item 1416 item 3153 item 3022 item 3742 as both most frequent and highest win rate. He's basicly a diver at this point.

Aaravos1 votes

And they nerfed ap shaco in a mid patch update. Ap Shaco nerf came out earlier than the Ryze and Lee nerf.

EleGiggle

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Its funny how everyone is using games played as a counter argument, when the season has literally just began and no one has 125+ games played on a champ yet. For some reason champion.gg is saying Zed players with 125+ games are averaging 57% win rates in plat+, and 13% of his players have 125+ games played. If you go to top lists Zed mains have like 90 games tops with like a 53% win rate. I don't know what the hell champion.gg is doing with their games played data but its definitely flawed, so avoid using it as an argument.

MissingKayo1 votes

It still uses data from all the previous patches.

People don't realize that. lol

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

No it doesn't. Stop spreading this missinformation.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Champion.gg adds games from 2 last seasons to calculate players experience. Why would be anything wrong with that?

Handin Out Naps1 votes

There is a lot wrong with that lol... I doubt this is true, but if it is it isn't accurately showing a champions current strength.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

There is a lot wrong with that lol...

Why? To properly assess players experienced you need certain period of time. It would be wrong to treat someone as novice Warwick player because they played 20 games on him in last 2 months despite spamming WW whole last year.

I doubt this is true

champion.gg code is openly available, there is no reason to "doubt" anything.

it isn't accurately showing a champions current strength

It is just as accurate as any other winrate data. More, in fact, as restricting data to experienced players rules out one variable from the equation. If we don't consider winrates important, whole outcry about assassins low winrates in meaningless.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Let me make this as clear as possible for you. You don't show a champions current strength by mixing past data with current data. It gives very mixed signals. You are telling me its fine that a reworked assassin is mixing with pre rework data? You are telling me it shows an assassin's current power by mixing data from a time where they were MUCH stronger? How exactly does your logic work, I would love for you to somehow make sense out of this.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Oh. Your english wasn't clear, sorry. They are not using data from previous patches to determine winrate of experienced players, they are using to determine who is an experienced player - which is obvious, as you don't become n experienced player over single patch.

I.e. to calculate winrate for 125+ players, they look for players who have 125 games played over last two seasons, but than the winrate is calculated only using their games from current patch.

Even if some players who are in fact inexperienced, because their games were played before a rework, are included among "125's", this should only make winrate lower than in reality.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Alright this makes a lot more sense. Thanks.

N3mO061 votes

Ban priority Rengar > every adc #missinglogic

Suspicious Xebra1 votes

ADC's shouldn't be able to lifesteal all their health back in a few hits, that is harming assassins quite a bit

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