Why is it ok for Annie to be able to 100-0 you while stunned?

TequilaZombie··122 votes·11,923 views

Disclaimer: I'm not raging, I'm not pissed, just honestly curious. Annie mains, you can chill.

We live in a period in which everything in League is about Clarity and Counter Play. Taric's stun got reworked beucase it was a point and click stun (just like Sion's). Most impactful abilities have a meaninful delay or require certain conditions (Leona ult delay, Galio & Amumu ults forcing them to be in melee range to be of any use).

Yet, even on this era, we have Annie. Who can simply point and click to deal a huge amount of AoE damage while also stunning everyone caught in the radius.

Her counterplay right now is "Stay out of her range or you die without any chance of retaliation".

Having things like these is what granted the entire assassin class a full rework in which they plan to increase the time an assassin takes to kill a target, as well as increasing the counterplay to their burst. Yet Annie exists.

They removed Kassadin & Talon silences because it denied their oponents a chance to fight back. Yet Annie is allowed to have an AoE ranged instant cast Stun that deals loads of damage.

The counter play aspect of Annie is "Stay out of her range". The same could be said for most assassins. If you stay out of Talon's or Zed's gap closer range, you can out play them. Yet they are in for a rework. Even though they have much more counterplay once they get to you than an Annie.

So my question is: why is Annie allowed to have such an oppressive kit without a single word of a rework coming from Riot?

EDIT: It seems like some people think I think assassins having a silence was fine or somethingn along those lines. For the sake of clarity, I'll compare Annie to burst mages now, so I can give a clearer example of what I mean.

Being able to 100-0 someone is fine.

So let's take Brand and Veigar as examples. Both of them are capable of 100-0 a squishy target while they are stunned. However, they both offer meaningful counterplay.

Brand has 905 Base damage + 195% AP (not taking into account his passive)

Veigar has 855 base damage + 235% AP

Annie has 870 base damage + 230% AP (without taking into account the DoT around Tibbers)

The damage is similar, and they all share the ability to stun their target. But how the stun works is vastly different:

Brand needs to land his Q, a skill shot, at a target who's been recently affected by his other abilities. This can be dodged or blocked by any friendly or neutral unity.

Veigar's E is telegraphed and, despite covering a large area, it is not hard to avoid the stun, making his other abilities harder to land and downright impacting his overall damage.

Annie's stun is shown to be up by the bar under her mana. She can apply it to a single target via her Q, which can't be blocked or dodged or to a large area with either her W or her Ult, which are instant cast AoE spells that can't be blocked or dodged.

The problem is not to 100-0 someone. The problem is not to be able to stun someone while you 100-0 them. The problem is to be able to stun them without offering any real counterplay except "Don't get close".

Yes, there is clarity to her stun. But sadly, no. There is no real counterplay to it.

EDIT 2: I'm not saying Annie is OP. I'm not saying that she needs a nerf. I'm saying that given Riot's current philosophy of clarity and counter play, her kit is unhealthy and could use some changes.

339 Comments

The Yetii Rider40 votes

Essentially Annie is necessary to punish highly mobile champions. If her ultimate or her Q could miss, she wouldn't be played in this meta.

Annie is a useful counter to mobility creep.

TequilaZombie12 votes

That is actually a valid point.

WiegrafOfValor7 votes

Valid, but she should lose power in exchange of her ability to counter mobility, cause right now she's more opressive to those non-mobi champions because of her 100-0 potential.

They could lowet her mana cost and lower her % on all skills. Counter mobi without 100-0 potential. Fair.

Tannk79511 votes

My only issue with this, is while she does counter mobile champs, she also destroys non mobile champs. Honestly if I have a mobile champ, I feel safer farming around an annie, because i can "predict" when she is going to ult and try to dodge it.

Imagine being a TwistedFate Brand Xerath or any non mobile adc like Twitch Ashe Draven

They are non mobile, and get zoned out completely by a level 6 Annie . Heck, even a level 3 Annie with a stun up is terrifying in lane.

I don't think the OP has any concern whether or not she is relevant in the meta or not. She is a good pick IN ANY GIVEN SITUATION. There is not a single comp in which she can't work. If she is played, she will find success because you can literally pick her up today, and get a penta on your first game... (unless the player is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE because she is easy to play, or she gets ganked all day because of her lack of mobility)

And before you or anyone says "Just get the jungler to help you" Yea... that doesn't always work nor does it happen with lack of communication. "getting help" should not be a champions counter-play....

XeroKimo33 votes

If you're being zoned by annie as Xerath... you're doing something wrong.....

BLYAT moon Akali10 votes

meh, leblanc deals at least as much damage to single targets, is ungankable, uncatchable, skillshot immune and has a basically targeted combo (sigil targeted, distortion impossible to miss, chain always cast point-blank and therefore virtually impossible to miss) that has an effective range of like 1500 units. she is a no risk high reward champion. now tell me how annie is oppressive.

japan hate acc12 votes

Annie can still be oppressive even if Leblanc is too. This doesn't change anything.

Astôlfo11 votes

And yet LeBlanc is still terrible.

CeexSett5 votes

Leblanc being ungankable and uncactchable isn't true. Or she would have average 0 deaths per game.

Her W has a 18/16/14/12/10. Even as it is maxed first, it still takes 9 levels to get it to 10 seconds. But those 10 seconds are 10 seconds where he can't harass if she used it to escape, or can't escape if she used it to harass, since it does both things. It's a question of asking your midlaner if it is up or down.

Kledy McKledFace9 votes

probably because youre building wrong and she got fed. She doesnt 100-0 unless you did something wrong

TequilaZombie24 votes

She has a 870 base damage, complemented by an aditional 230% AP. This is more than enough to 100-0 most squishies.

venomous frost10 votes

a level 16 annie has 870 base damage with 230% ap damage.

if this one shots you, you are so behind or out of position.

TequilaZombie20 votes

Or she flanked, or a teamfight happened, or she flashed, or used item 3152. I mean, there are quite a lot of ways for someone to get to the back lines.

Lovelle8 votes

[{quoted}](name=venomous frost,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d22wmz0K,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-07-11T15:08:32.622+0000)

a level 16 annie has 870 base damage with 230% ap damage.

if this one shots you, you are so behind or out of position.

It's not so much how well Annie kills on her own. It's how easily her stun can set up plays. That AoE stun is devastating, when it hits more than one target, especially late game. Taking team comp implications into mind, she is a top tier amplifier. In short, her stun is great for winning games due to its consistent (targeted) nature. The damage is honestly just a bonus.

Not saying she is overpowered or anything, but OP's complaint about the nature of her stun isn't entirely without merit.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Annie can 100-0 basically anyone in mid as soon as she hits 6?? If not, after she bought NLR she can. Talking about the midlaners here.

ChaoticPinecone7 votes

Tibbers level 6: 150 W at level 3: 160 Q at level 2: 115 230% AP ratio: assuming 40 starting + 60 from NLR, thats 230 extra damage.

so 150 + 160 + 115 + 230 = 655 damage.

Annie has 812 HP and 30 MR at level 6. So a glass cannon Annie with a level 6 NLR and no levels in E cant oneshot an enemy glass canon Annie.

Sire Hippington12 votes

why do people always forget that her tibbers enrages and has some serious AA damage since the rework. Tibbers rocks ~117+(0.56ap) AA dps for the first 3 sec after summoning, that's another ~175+0.8ap damage over the stun duration, + his small aoe dot. Now add in the 2-3 AAs that she can easily land duering the stun aswell as thunderlords and evt ignite, and her burst suddenly is quite deadly, especially since tibbers and her AAs continue after the stun wears of and her Q has damn low cd, so you either get the fuck of asap after surviving her burst or she easily finishes you off.

statelesskiller3 votes

dont forget about thunderlords decree . . . and the DOT and punches from tibbers.

tooomine1 votes

Yes. So can lux. so can morgana. Why no rage at them?

Princess Emma4 votes

Their combo can be avoided by dodging their Q abilities. Annie is completely point and click, and the most ''skill shot'' she has is Tibbers, and that is an instant AoE.

Not saying I have a problem with Annie or anything.

Marshbouy8 votes

silence=/=stun.

talon has an invisibility ult and a huge range. kassadin can go over walls.

because her kit really isn't that oppressive.

japan hate acc25 votes

You can't compare someone like Annie to assassins like Talon and Kassadin. The OP wasn't comparing the two either; he was using them as an example as to how little counterplay you had, and why they were removed. When Annie flash +Q+R, that poor soul who got stunned is gonna die. There isn't counterplay to that.

Marshbouy8 votes

unless they have QSS magic resistance or a banshees.

japan hate acc11 votes

As for your "huge range" comment on Talon what part of his kit are you talking about?

SociopathFriend8 votes

Well you put a lot of thought into this so I'll do the same for my reply.

Taric's stun got reworked beucase it was a point and click stun (just like Sion's).

Taric got reworked because he was an invisible-stat champion, something Riot has been working to remove. His major contributions to the team were two auras- that you couldn't even see in the case of his old W. His stun was reworked because of how his W was changed- a lot of his rework centers around how he can cast a spell from an ally plus himself. What would a point-and-click stun do shooting from two people? Nothing. It already couldn't miss after all- it was changed because his entire kit was changed- not because the stun itself was unhealthy. Short-ranged and certain abilities are fine for the game.

Yet Annie is allowed to have an AoE ranged instant cast Stun that deals loads of damage.

And is the shortest ranged mage out of all the ones you listed- as well as one of the ones with the least damage. The certainty is balanced by the least amount of damage. You mentioned this and followed it up with-

They removed Talon, Kass, and Leblanc silences because it denied their oponents a chance to fight back. Yet Annie is allowed to have an AoE ranged instant cast Stun that deals loads of damage.

All 3 of the previous champions have a dash that lets them get to you- Annie has Flash (not going into protobelt for this as that's new). This is not something to underestimate. Annie can close the gap and kill you every 5 minutes. The other 3 could do it whenever you walked up to lane.

Yes, there is clarity to her stun. But sadly, no. There is no real counterplay to it.

This is untrue. Annie can only retain that stun so long as she does not use abilities. She literally cannot farm and retain her stun. That is the counterplay- it's conditional. And just having a warning at all is more than either of those 3 have. Does Annie have her stun up? Back away- farm- push- she has to use her abilities to do the same- she's a mage.

And to grab one of your comments further down

Or she flanked, or a teamfight happened, or she flashed, or used protobelt . I mean, there are quite a lot of ways for someone to get to the back lines.

Flanking requires bad vision for your team- your fault. A teamfight is no excuse for bad positioning- your fault. Flashing or Protobelting into range is still positioning- and still your fault. All of the above are not the fault of Annie- they are mistakes on your end that can be capitalized on by any assassin, mage, or even some fighters considering "squishies" build no defense. Don't want to be 100-0? Buy defenses or have better peel. Or have a better engage since Annie will have a harder time stunning properly if your tank initiates and eats it (like they should be).

TLDR- you kinda cheat. You take several points from different cases (Assassin Counterplay, Taric point and click, mage damage) and unload them all onto Annie without pointing out how she is also different from each of those cases. (No mobility, not a tank, and having low damage/range respectively).

WunThousandOurs7 votes

I'm confused. You started this post titled this post about Annie being able to 100-0 players, but there are other champs that also do this (i.e. LeBlanc). You then followed by talking about Clarity and Counterplay. However, you can clearly see when Annie's stun is up. This is shown by the 4 bars under her name and the wind animation around her waist. If you see her stun is up and you still allow her to stun you, that's on you. Take it in stride and move on.

TequilaZombie9 votes

Yes, there is clarity. No, there is no real counterplay. Being able to 100-0 someone is fine. We have a whole class designed to do exactly that. Even some burst mages like Brand and Veigar can one shot most squishies. The thing is: The way assassins work is in need of a rework, so they are not a healthy thing to be compared with.

So let's take Brand and Veigar as examples. Both of them are capable of 100-0 a squishy target while they are stunned. However, they both offer meaningful counterplay.

Brand needs to land at least his Q, a skill shot, at a target who's been recently affected by his other abilities. This can be dodged or blocked by any friendly or neutral unity.

Veigar's W is telegraphed and, despite covering a large area, it is not hard to avoid the stun, making his other abilities harder to land and downright impacting his overall damage.

WunThousandOurs3 votes

Why do you keep mentioning Assassins while addressing concerns with Annie?

I follow you on the Burst Mages overall, but I would like to clarify that it's not Veigar's W that kills you. It's his R, which is point and click.

TequilaZombie7 votes

Because assassins used to do exactly what she does: delete someone extremely quickly while giving no chance to fight back. This has been proven time and time again to be toxic. Even after taking away the CC from their kits, they are not only strong, but strong enough to require a complete rework.

Assassins were the proof of what is not healthy gameplay: High burst with unnavoidable CC.

The burst mages are the proof of what is healthy gameplay: High burst with avoidable CC.

The Yetii Rider7 votes

Meddler has stated in the assassin dev corner thread that assassins are high burst high mobility. The reason they are considered toxic is because the mobility COMBINED with the instant burst with low counterplay is insufferable.

And they have data to back that up. Kassadin, Zed, Lee Sin, most champions that have low win rates but high ban rates are highly mobile champions with low amounts of counterplay.

Annie and Veigar get to exist because A) Burst mages are really the only champions that can build raw AP. Take away Annie and Veigar and you might as well remove Rabadon's from the game and B) These champions are immobile. The counterplay to them is maintaining your distance. It's really really not hard to do.

afk soon btw6 votes

This is stupid lol. She is a low Range Burst Mage. She has no mobility, no Escape, no Range.

Taking away her strenght would just destroy her.

A Range of 600 is a joke as Mage. Lux can do her Job while having +1000 Range on all of her Skills. So please.

THE RlVER KlNG5 votes

In response to what the Yeti Rider said, I would like to point out that the meta needing ridiculous, point and click CC and nuke champions like Annie, Lissandra, and even Malzahar to an extent simply to counter the ridiculous amount of mobility in the game, is a flawed system. Why ever pick someone with skillshots and/or is immobile (i.e. the entire mage class) then? Because Annie counters immobile mages a lot harder than mobile assassins, actually, leaving the only competitive picks to be mobility and point-and-click, simply because they exist to counter each other, whilst also shoving out the other mid-lane pick: skillshot mages. There's a reason in the LCS its consistently been champions like LB, Ryze, and LIssandra.

You can't just say Annie is allowed to oneshot people with binary 'counterplay' because she exists to counter mobile champions; by default she must then counter immobile champions even more harshly. Which the mobile champions she is supposed to counter already do. :/

{quoted}

Then that leaves only mobile and point and click CC champions viable. Why play someone with unreliable CC or no mobility (or both, for a lot of mages) when you can play hypermobile or point and click champs

From the Ryze update thread, from a discussion how he still has a point-and-click root.

EDIT: Not trying to start anything with Yeti Rider, he's usually a well-informed, productive guy, don't have anything against him, just his argument.

2ND EDIT: Not saying Annie, or Liss, or LB or whatever are necessarily broken either.

Edge of Daybreak4 votes

That's the entire point of her character though. To be a zero counterplay easy to play mage. This is what riot and many annie players like about her. You sacrifice mobility, most utility, high average range and what you get is burst with little counterplay which usually consumes a 5 minute cooldown. Most assassins have higher range than her all the time and mobility/utility. To compare her to them for one aspect is silly.

TequilaZombie3 votes

I'm not comparing her to them in general. I'm comparing two things that remove counter play that are followed by high burst. It's not apple to oranges, I'm comparing two very similar apples that are receiving different treatment.

Edge of Daybreak10 votes

They removed Kassadin & Talon silences because it denied their oponents a chance to fight back. Yet Annie is allowed to have an AoE ranged instant cast Stun that deals loads of damage.

The counter play aspect of Annie is "Stay out of her range". The same could be said for most assassins. If you stay out of Talon's or Zed's gap closer range, you can out play them.

You compared that they have CC so their targets can't fight back. Then you compared that you must stay out of their range so they can't touch you. That's fine. The difference is that most assassins have gap closers and other ways of getting to you. Annie is limited to flash. protobelt is trash if it wasn't and she built it id agree she could be a problem. Then annie also lacks escape options too. its either flash or die. In which case you just shut off her primary engage tool for 5 minutes. if you blow an assassin's escape it's usually only for about 14-20 seconds depending on the champion. They may have some similarities but they are different enough that it isn't a problem overall. If a champion like annie had counterplay to the only thing she does on top of all of the previous weaknesses she would just be garbage which thank god riot realized that immediately during the rework discussion.

EROTIC RAID BOSS4 votes

she did have her burst reduced recently in exchange for more damage on tibbers attacks.

honestly I don't like facing her either, but I will say that its very common for mages to be able to burst you down hard if they land a full combo on you. especially if theyre ahead. high burst damage is kind of a necessity in mid lane

statelesskiller4 votes

the same thing can be said for leblanc who the moment she hits 6 you basically cant walk into lane even if you have a negatron cloak wqrew thunderlords your dead

Goosetard4 votes

was going to post exactly this.

"Why is it ok that Leblanc can 100-0 you without needing to stun you?"

Theiki Kayle4 votes

Annie is supposed to counter hypermobile champs and burst them before they can "outplay" your entire team.

Vayne, Yasuo and co.

Annie's range is really low for a mage (except for ult), so pick anything with longer range into her and she'll get obliterated or get a kill only by putting Flash (her only escape) on CD. I've destroyed Annie using Lux. She got a couple of kills on me with Flash later in the game, but our team's Leona and Rek'Sai simply counter engaged and murdered her.

Basically, pick something with long range to lane against her and some heavy engage for teamfights (jungler, top or support can be heavy engage, Ashe and Sivir also work if they're careful)

DeathBurst4 votes

A great post well written.

That being said, what you highlighted as an exception is also her unique strength, her niche. That's what make Annie unique, that reliability, and she's sacrificing a lot to that: she has relatively low range for a burst mage, no mobility, very limited utility. Also, most mages can at least poke from afar while waiting for an opportunity to unload their combo at a priority target, but Annie can't do that, because then she doesn't have her stun ready anymore, and that's a huge problem, so she can't even Q the frontline.

Brand has huge AoE potential, and can force a team to split with his ult/his passive procs, and he has %HP damage, so he's much better in team fights, when you need to clear the frontline. Veigar can zone with his cage even if it doesn't land on a target, and I think you didn't take into account the execute component on his ult, plus he has his stacking, so he can hit at much more durable targets than Annie, and he can poke with his Q.

Overall, your analysis is quite true, but incomplete, and I hope I answered your "why is it OK?": reliability is Annie unique strength, and she pays for it elsewhere ;)

Llanite3 votes

Cuz Annie's stun is her sole survival and she's stuck farming with 50 AA if she wants to hold it. I don't see such tradeoff in Talon, Kass, Leblanc, Brand or Veigar.

FYI Veigar has x2 more AP than Annie while Brand passive is worth a lot more than 0.35 ratio.

TotalJerk3 votes

I'd argue that Banshee's Veil is a counter to Annie.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

If Annie wants to keep her combo available, she can't use any other spells. She's also much less mobile than an assassin, and prone to being poked down.

I agree that her combo lacks sufficient counterplay. But I think it's less lacking than Talon or Kass's old silence was.

BurnSnake3 votes

Annie is one of those champions whose entire counter-play is one champion picks. Like Teemo. If you play someone with the range to poke annie, your fine. Otherwise you die.

Ormylar3 votes

She's an anti-all in champion. She punishes people who go all in on her. Her general weakness is long range poke since she's a short range champion.

MoneyGSZ3 votes

Sounds like a silver problem... Build MR.

/thread

Sun Wukong Sun1 votes

Easy fix, change her Q to a skill shot like they did with Ryze

Though I agree to your post to an extent, something as simple as building mr and damage can counter her. Annie is very quishy after all.

2 examples When I use Talon or LeeSin against her I rush item 3155 , she stuns me and does her combo, my shield pops then I obliterate her When I use Ahri or Ekko against her I rush item 3001 , the 60 magic resist is enough to survive the combo and then dive in, burst her, use summoner 14 then summoner 4 away for the kill.

Of course you can use Tryndamere or Fizz and just destroy her post 6.

SkyBlade794 votes

She's not really that squishy with her 40% damage decrease now :/

FillyPhlyerz1 votes

I really like Annie . She was my first main and she's still my mid pick when I want to pick something safe and comfortable. That being said, I totally understand what people mean when they say she's broken with no counterplay. I recently played her into a Yasuo and I honestly felt bad. He had no recourse. If he wanted farm, he had to come near me. If he came near me, I stunned him with my W and followed up with a Q before he could even think to windwall. Rinse, repeat.

There are really no summs either to save you. Barrier requires a very risky prediction, cleanse will get you out of the stun but not the damage. The best option might be heal? Even that might not matter as you might not even get the opportunity to use it. I think there's work to be done with her, but I'm no game designer so I'm not sure how to go about it.

If they ever do fundamentally change her to add counterplay, I'll be a sad panda.

sup hold me back3 votes

Just to add a detail. The best summoner spell vs Annie would be Exhaust, as you can exhaust her when she stuns you and negate her full combo damage

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