"We can't nerf Lee Sin because of community backlash"

Lost In Time··195 votes·8,733 views

Meanwhile consecutive Sona nerfs and even a rework despite community backlash.

Yup.

146 Comments

Cale01746 votes

Riot: "Sona's dealing too much damage for a support."

Lee Sin mains: "If I play support I bet I can steal all the kills with my Q."

Lost In Time37 votes

{quoted}

Riot: "Sona's dealing too much damage for a support."

Lee Sin mains: "If I play support I bet I can steal all the kills with my Q."

At this point, Lee Sin support works better than Sona.

Harass - check CC- check Shield - check Builds sightstone - check (probably for selfish reasons BUT HEY, it's a ward - more than you're going to get from "support" Nidalee)

Cale01714 votes

{quoted}

At this point, Lee Sin support works better than Sona.

Harass - check CC- check Shield - check Builds sightstone - check (probably for selfish reasons BUT HEY, it's a ward - more than you're going to get from "support" Nidalee)

My roommate was able to play Lee Sin support completely smashed last week and he still managed to do good. Hell, with him in the bottom lane we were able to assert an absolutely insane amount of dragon control. Starting after we were both level 3 we got five consecutive dragons in a row.

I'd go so far as to argue that if someone who doesn't even play Lee Sin can be completely wasted and have absolutely no issue not only playing him outside of his role, but playing him effectively as he's normally played all the same, Lee Sin isn't half as hard as most would lead you to believe.

Sorry, but Q Flash E E R Q isn't hard. And that's usually more than enough to finish someone off who's also taking damage from an ally.

Brenticus1217 votes

Thank you for finally saying it. It's not at all hard to execute his combos. He has a low skill floor just like Zed because anyone can pick him up and learn his combos quickly and do alright if not well. He does however have a high skill CAP just like Zed because a true Lee Sin main will come up with unique ways of hopping about just like a Zed main would find new ways to trick people, kill them and get away.

A champ with a high skill floor would be someone like Azir or Yasuo where positioning is key and any mistep will land you in trouble because they're both squishy. They have methods of protection (Wind wall and Emperor's Divide) but they are both on very long cooldowns.

Cale0172 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for finally saying it. It's not at all hard to execute his combos. He has a low skill floor just like Zed because anyone can pick him up and learn his combos quickly and do alright if not well. He does however have a high skill CAP just like Zed because a true Lee Sin main will come up with unique ways of hopping about just like a Zed main would find new ways to trick people, kill them and get away.

A champ with a high skill floor would be someone like Azir or Yasuo where positioning is key and any mistep will land you in trouble because they're both squishy. They have methods of protection (Wind wall and Emperor's Divide) but they are both on very long cooldowns.

Azir? Sure. Form a solid defensive line and stay behind it, no one can get to you. Try and do the attacking yourself, you're gonna get your face bashed back into the sands.

Yasuo? Just a ranged Yi so far as I'm concerned. Between Wind Wall and his full flow shield he's TOO forgiving on his positioning. He's even allowed to safely ult into the middle of a teamfight because his ult gives him a free shield once again even if he has 0 flow when using it. You know how many other champions can dive into the enemy team and completely mitigate the next source of damage that's going to come at them while being able to dash away and block any following projectiles?

None.

Until Nocturne gets a free spellshield when he uses his ult, until Vi's shield can drastically increase the damage it can absorb, until Jarvan can reinforce his shield from ulting the enemy team, Yasuo is being given too much for too little given how much damage is in the rest of his kit. No one should have that much mobility, range, armor shred, damage, and damage mitigation all in one kit for free.

Q Q Q R is not a hard combo but it's all he needs to win teamfights.

Sypher The Poro1 votes

There's on major thing you overlooked regarding Yasuo's ult and as someone who plays him I feel the need to correct you: Yasuo's ult has something that only one other uses, his ult requires setup. You either must have landed two of your Qs on nearby enemy minions, or an enemy champion to use his knockup to allow the ult, or have a fellow champion charge in for you. Unlike both Nocturne and Vi, you don't just point and click and it happens, but you must either land your Q or have someone else send them up.

P.S. Every tried to ult Lucian as Yasuo? It's friken impossible.

Cale0173 votes

{quoted}

There's on major thing you overlooked regarding Yasuo's ult and as someone who plays him I feel the need to correct you: Yasuo's ult has something that only one other uses, his ult requires setup. You either must have landed two of your Qs on nearby enemy minions, or an enemy champion to use his knockup to allow the ult, or have a fellow champion charge in for you. Unlike both Nocturne and Vi, you don't just point and click and it happens, but you must either land your Q or have someone else send them up.

P.S. Every tried to ult Lucian as Yasuo? It's friken impossible.

Because pressing Q three times is hard to do on a low cooldown skill with high range for the final Q and a wide hitbox. In most cases I'd go so far as to say a bullshit hitbox considering I've been caught in the tornado with more than a Teemo between the edge of the tornado and I. That isn't very hard to set up, especially given how low the cooldown on his Q is.

Ever tried to ult Yasuo as Lucian? He shoves his dick through the Wind Wall just to taunt at you behind it.

I'm sorry, but I don't care what anyone has to say, or how weak he becomes if he DOES get caught in some CC. He's getting too much for too little.

Sypher The Poro4 votes

Quick list of Yasuo stuff: Q has a max cooldown if 1.33 seconds. The hitbox for the tornado may be large, but it's really slow. His dodge relies on enemies and neutrals, and can only be used once on them before a 6 second cooldown. Windwall's CD ranges from 22-18 seconds. Long either way. His early game is crap. I normally don't even build damage until my third item.

Cale0174 votes

{quoted}

Quick list of Yasuo stuff: Q has a max cooldown if 1.33 seconds.

That's still low for the amount of poke it does and how quickly it allows him to get stacks on the Q to send out the only set up he needs to rip a team apart.

The hitbox for the tornado may be large, but it's really slow.

I'd call it undefined before I'd call it just large. I've been hit by tornadoes that had no place affecting me while passing right over other champs directly in it's path. I'd honestly believe that it's got some bugs that need to be worked out.

His dodge relies on enemies and neutrals, and can only be used once on them before a 6 second cooldown.

He only needs to be able to do it once to juke a skillshot that might be the only immediately available method of CCing him.

Windwall's CD ranges from 22-18 seconds. Long either way.

Doesn't matter how long the cooldown is when he only needs to use it once to make a clean getaway.

His early game is crap. I normally don't even build damage until my third item.

Every Yasuo who gets first blood at level 1 or level 2 disagrees.

Sypher The Poro3 votes

If Yasuo is getting first blood at level 1 or 2 then he's matched up against a moron. Talk to anyone who actually plays him, and they well tell you his early game is awful. All my runes and masteries for him are just for surviving until I get Infinity Edge.

Brenticus126 votes

Um, no, not at all. Any small mistakes he makes will be severely punished. If he gets neutered early game he can't get back unless the game ends with everyone at full build.

Thing is, Yasuo can only dash through enemies so he has to be aggressive to be useful. Being aggressive means getting targetted by CC and he is a sustained fighter meaning he needs to stick to targets. Yes, a fed Yasuo is a complete terror just like any duelist fighter or assassin but that's why you abuse the fact that his early game is shit. He has no other forms of protection other than his wind wall and his shield because he is probably the squishiest fighter there is.

Do you know why Yasuo gets a free shield on ult? Because mid-late it doesn't even matter anymore cause that shiekd will trigger and dissipitate faster than you can land after you finish your ult. The shield has been nerfed numerous times, it's not as big as when SKT Wolf killed the entire enemy team.at the Nexus with a sliver of health left.

Nocturne is normally a bruiser meaning he is tanky. Vi is also very tanky. Jarvan is also another tanky bruiser. They are all extremely tanky bruisers and can take a beating but unless Yasuo is fed and rushed BT while the enemies don't have their own core items yet, then he has no means of surviving other than to hope that he doesn't die instantly during and after ult.

And I'd like to see you do a 3-5 man Yasuo QQQR Combo in any Elo above Silver. It is not as easy as you think.

Even fucking Yi has damage mitigation and sustain in the form of his W. Trynd has it in his Q and ult. I could keep going on.

You can learn his combos just like you can learn Azir's combos but it doesn't change the fact that it is very difficult and tedious to execute them unless you were extremely fed early in which case any champion is easy to play as.

Cale0175 votes

{quoted}

Um, no, not at all. Any small mistakes he makes will be severely punished. If he gets neutered early game he can't get back unless the game ends with everyone at full build.

Except that he can just QQQR for a teamfight in the early game then dash back out with up two two shiels and a godmodded wind wall to protect him while his team finishes the job he started off of just his ult. He doesn't have to contribute after that beyond hanging back and poking, and can very easily get fed off of assists to regain his power during the mid game going into late.

Thing is, Yasuo can only dash through enemies so he has to be aggressive to be useful. Being aggressive means getting targetted by CC and he is a sustained fighter meaning he needs to stick to targets. Yes, a fed Yasuo is a complete terror just like any duelist fighter or assassin but that's why you abuse the fact that his early game is shit. He has no other forms of protection other than his wind wall and his shield because he is probably the squishiest fighter there is.

Yes, so give the guy who has to be aggressive to be useful up to three methods of damage mitigation or completely stopping it, give his sustained damage so much burst that he doesn't have to deal it for more than a second or two, and give him the ability to provide two different CC effects as well. And make it so that he only needs two items to crit every single time he right clicks or Qs someone when ADCs, who's kits revolve around the same concept, have to build three items to guarantee critical strikes and give up on damage to build that third crit chance item when he can just keep right on trucking on damage items.

Do you know why Yasuo gets a free shield on ult? Because mid-late it doesn't even matter anymore cause that shiekd will trigger and dissipitate faster than you can land after you finish your ult. The shield has been nerfed numerous times, it's not as big as when SKT Wolf killed the entire enemy team.at the Nexus with a sliver of health left.

Except it isn't hard to QQQR, then use the shield to buy you have a second as you E/Flash away to get some distance, then block whatever's flying at you with Wind Wall so you make a completely free escape.

Nocturne is normally a bruiser meaning he is tanky. Vi is also very tanky. Jarvan is also another tanky bruiser. They are all extremely tanky bruisers and can take a beating but unless Yasuo is fed and rushed BT while the enemies don't have their own core items yet, then he has no means of surviving other than to hope that he doesn't die instantly during and after ult.

Nocturne isn't normally a bruiser, he's normally either a high damage assassin or a fighter. He only builds bruiser if he's falling behind. Vi is tanky, but she isn't getting as much free damage mitigation for diving someone as Yasuo has access too, even with her passive shield. She isn't blocking the next damaging ability or negating the next several that come at her. Jarvan isn't either. Building tanky is what allows them to survive the engagement, but it's stacked in Yasuo's favor when he can build more damage and mitigate so much that he doesn't even take any on his way back out before his team crashes down on you.

And I'd like to see you do a 3-5 man Yasuo QQQR Combo in any Elo above Silver. It is not as easy as you think.

It's much more about where the enemies are than where you are. Late game that's not hard if they group up... which is the standard late game strategy.

Even fucking Yi has damage mitigation and sustain in the form of his W. Trynd has it in his Q and ult. I could keep going on.

Yi is reducing the damage dealt, not completely cancelling it. Trynd risks dying the moment his ult ends, and it's easy to make him waste it.

You can learn his combos just like you can learn Azir's combos but it doesn't change the fact that it is very difficult and tedious to execute them unless you were extremely fed early in which case any champion is easy to play as.

E four times through a minion wave then E through the enemy laner to deal maximum harass damage. Do so with full flow and it's free harass on them. Q twice on minions and then send a third Q at the enemy laner to poke them. Please excuse me while I get try to process how insanely difficult it is to press the same button multiple times. Azir's combos require careful positioning of both his soldiers and himself. Yasuo's combos require something with a red health bar to be somewhere nearby. They aren't the same, and unlike Yasuo, with Azir you get punished by losing your ability to escape or mitigate damage with his shield if you make a bad positioning choice. Yasuo can get caught out and still get away between his high mobility and two different ways of negating damage from chasing enemies.

Nissasah2 votes

I remember playing Yasuo with Lee Sin bot lane... it actually kind of worked hilariously enough. (Though all the times we lost because we had no adc and got outscaled, still pretty fun annhilating the enemy adc at lvl 6)

AetherKingdom5 votes

Huge ms boost for your allies? No check Free exhaust? No check 5 man shield? No check Heal that increases with missing health? No check. I can go on.

OblongOtter7 votes

2 or 3 man shield, same for the movement speed boost. And Sona has a situational, hard-to-save-for-the-perfect-time, single target slow OR all-of-those-things damage reduction. That isn't a free exhaust,especially since Lee has an AoE slow that deals damage and reveals.

It is true he doesn't have a heal, but in return he can take on the enemy adc mostly by himself as well as ulting the enemy adc into his team.

MattAkhavan2 votes

Sona has safe harass safe CC safe shield heals movement speed buffs and AOE cc

sona > lee sin in every way in support role.

Elphrihaim9 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Am Animation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYUE15Aj,comment-id=000000000003,timestamp=2015-01-07T07:17:32.025+0000)

Sona has safe harass safe CC safe shield heals movement speed buffs and AOE cc

sona > lee sin in every way in support role.

But Nami > Sona in support.

The point of the thread, however, is that there is a large amount of community backlash for nerfing Sona.

But Lee Sin had proposed nerfs that were taken away due to community backlash.

So why does Lee Sin get special treatment in that regard?

MattAkhavan1 votes

i don't agree with this either. Nami has more opportunity to provide more for her team, but sona can do it more consistently. She is just easy to play and the percentage of her skills that she can miss are very very small. This makes her overall efficiency better than nami's.

I also think that lee sin really doesn't need to be nerfed so badly. he's in a decent place right now.

Pika3107 votes

Nami cannot miss her W. Nami cannot miss her E. These 2 skills together for a lower mana cost out-damage, out-heal and out-mobility Sona's 3 abilities. Nami is more efficient than Sona.

Ganjizord15 votes

i think they mean pro backlash...more important than the normal people

sayhisam111 votes

Sona deserves to be nerfed. She does as much or even more damage than an adc at level 1 with the spammy poke she has(which has almost no counterplay, btw, since you attack her and she ends up out damaging you, and then just heals it back), she has a really strong heal, a lot of utility, and can basically carry bot lane by herself. Oh, and don'the forget the fact that she wins team fights with her long-ass high damage AoE stun. Though I have to agree, Lee Sin is terrible to deal with.

Lost In Time19 votes

{quoted}

Sona deserves to be nerfed. She does as much or even more damage than an adc at level 1 with the spammy poke she has(which has almost no counterplay, btw, since you attack her and she ends up out damaging you, and then just heals it back), she has a really strong heal, a lot of utility, and can basically carry bot lane by herself. Oh, and don'the forget the fact that she wins team fights with her long-ass high damage AoE stun. Though I have to agree, Lee Sin is terrible to deal with.

Nami does this better than Sona at this point without a gimmick aura mechanic, hard CC at pre-6 and oh, not slayed by nerf after nerf.

Where's the equality?

sayhisam14 votes

Nami is not as good as sona when it comes to dealing truckloads of damage. Have you even seen the full a runes masteries sona that 2 shots everyone, everywhere? Her Q is a lot more spammy than nami's, her ult is undodgeable(flash ult wins teamfights), she heals very large amounts, and the auras basically allow for free team wide armor and movement speed, allowing for engages or disengages at will. Since when does Nami heal more than sona and deal more damage than sona?

Brenticus1210 votes

Nami heals for alot more and helps in duels..she also has two hard CCs and an auto attack steroid for her ADC. What does Sona have? One ability that only does more damage than Nami's heal thing when coupled with empowered AA, a shit heal with a terrible shield, a weak movement speed buff and an ult that is only slightly more effective than Nami's. Sona is the squishiest champion all game and she isn't compensated for it.

A Wild AP Sona10 votes

{quoted}

Nami is not as good as sona when it comes to dealing truckloads of damage. Have you even seen the full a runes masteries sona that 2 shots everyone, everywhere? Her Q is a lot more spammy than nami's, her ult is undodgeable(flash ult wins teamfights), she heals very large amounts, and the auras basically allow for free team wide armor and movement speed, allowing for engages or disengages at will. Since when does Nami heal more than sona and deal more damage than sona?

her ult is undodgable? k coming from #1 sona stats world with 2k ranked games played in high elo you are a fucking idiot with this statement officially

sona ult has stupidly laughable travel time the last 20-30% of sonas ult can literally be outran if she tries to ult you with the tip of her range 60% of the time in high elo people tumble/dodge/flash out of the way of your ult

namis ult is about 10x easier to hit and does the same thing as sonas ult

WingsofGulgazor2 votes

even if you say number 1 ranked in sona stats there are people high elo then you who play Sona and they play sona more then nami right now so if your joining the band wagon in saying nami is a billion times better then sona then I think your mistaken. Though her ult is so easy to miss or escape it's not even funny :/ though if adc's like ezreal and caiyltn were top tier adc's I think sona would become really strong right now because the laning power sona has with them is pretty insane because as said sona like to play up and push to your turret and champions that like to be at there turret farming vayne get demolished by sona poke at tower and champions like trist who already do bad at the tower get demolished more especially with something like a caitlyn. Bur right now the adc's that sona goes strong with aren't really as strong and with thresh an champion that does well against sona and adc's like graves/corki being meta and sona being weak to all ins really hurts how strong she is right now.

Miudmon27 votes

{quoted}

Sona deserves to be nerfed. She does as much or even more damage than an adc at level 1 with the spammy poke she has(which has almost no counterplay, btw, since you attack her and she ends up out damaging you, and then just heals it back), she has a really strong heal, a lot of utility, and can basically carry bot lane by herself. Oh, and don'the forget the fact that she wins team fights with her long-ass high damage AoE stun. Though I have to agree, Lee Sin is terrible to deal with.

"She does as much or even more damage than an adc at level 1" GOOD! supports are meant to be better than adcs early you dimwit

supes the lost8 votes

item 3302 heals better then Sona does at the start of the game, currently Sona is a much weaker version of Nami now, who is very good at playing the poke and heal game, has a attack speed booster for her adc, and has a similar ult. Plus Sona's heal cost 80 mana rank 1, for a 40 health heal.

Cuz19722 votes

[{quoted}](name=supes the lost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYUE15Aj,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2015-01-06T15:20:48.512+0000)

item 3302 heals better then Sona does at the start of the game, currently Sona is a much weaker version of Nami now, who is very good at playing the poke and heal game, has a attack speed booster for her adc,** and has a similar ult**. Plus Sona's heal cost 80 mana rank 1, for a 40 health heal.

Oh dear lord...

supes the lost13 votes

Nami's ult is just a much slower, farther ranged Sona ult.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

They were more referring to leddit screaming their lungs out at the prospect of a Lee nerf, bit more than some threads on g&b

[{quoted}](name=supes the lost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYUE15Aj,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2015-01-06T15:51:51.308+0000)

Nami's ult is just a much slower, farther ranged Sona ult.

And there's the difference

OblongOtter8 votes

The other difference is that it's much easier to hit, cannot be reduced by tenacity, and speeds up her allies.

Rinky Dinky8 votes

Nami's ult actually cc's longer and more efficiently if anybody on the enemy team buys tenacity.

Knight Devout11 votes

Sona is not a LCStar

Audiomancy10 votes

I love it when people say things like "Lee Sin is balanced! It's everyone else that's weak!"

kunkudunk2 votes

To be fair there are a decent chunk of champs that need to be brought up to par.

AccountaBilabudy9 votes

Sona was fine. Leona has always hard countered Sona.

I Kill Commies3 votes

Riot isn't nerfing lee sin because despite what the forum crybabies are saying, the hard data that they have say that he's balanced.

Why do you people think that mob mentality should rule Riot's balance changes?

SexyTaylorSwift27 votes

He is so balanced that he single handily has controlled the jungle meta for over 2 years :D

iamthegoatofwar12 votes

This. Also notice how anytime lee sin isn't in the spot light the new spotlight champ for the jungle is. nods at warwick.

SexyTaylorSwift10 votes

WW became too strong because of an item. So, instead of fixing the item, they heavy nerfed WW. He needed something, but I think that changing the single item that made him OP would have been a better way to go.

Cho nerfs incoming since he is starting to see play. Happened with WW, Eve, Fiddles, and Elise (that I can think of off the top of my head). Any jungler that becomes close to Lee Sin is nerfed by Riot. It really is stupid and there is no reason for it besides it makes them money.

iamthegoatofwar9 votes

I'm seriously thinking about always banning lee sin I'm sick of him showing up every game.

Dengeden1 votes

Riot has a habit of overnerfing point and click champions. A great deal of people are grateful for that. However, erm, you're wrong. Lee was nerfed alongside Elise, Eve, etc. When junglers like Elise (tanky %healthdmg CC machine), Khazix or Eve (unique team fighters) were at their peak, they were better than Lee. By a lot. Lee is just a very solid pick because he doesn't need many items or the 2nd blue (to be useful).

Diostukos4 votes

{quoted}

Riot has a habit of overnerfing point and click champions. A great deal of people are grateful for that. However, erm, you're wrong. Lee was nerfed alongside Elise, Eve, etc. When junglers like Elise (tanky %healthdmg CC machine), Khazix or Eve (unique team fighters) were at their peak, they were better than Lee. By a lot. Lee is just a very solid pick because he doesn't need many items or the 2nd blue (to be useful).

Lee Sin was still pick/ban along side the other junglers when they were nerfed.

Lee's problem is that he just has too much free stats he doesn't need. If they'd remove some of the things like 10 ms, W's spellvamp, and some damage off his ult he'd be in a much healthier place. He'd still be great in the early game and still offer a lot of midgame teamfight potential.

Konidias2 votes

Uhhh who actually said "We can't nerf Lee Sin because of community backlash"

You can't just make up quotes to suit your argument...

DanyTargaryn12 votes

"Yes I can" - Abraham Lincoln

iamthegoatofwar5 votes

I can't remember who but I will say riot has more or less said something that can be paraphrased into that. I remember reading about it.

Konidias1 votes

{quoted}

I can't remember who but I will say riot has more or less said something that can be paraphrased into that. I remember reading about it.

Riot as in one person from Riot whose message was probably misinterpreted by the community and then the words twisted into the gnarled quote that doesn't even loosely resemble the original one?

Then the community wonders why there's a lack of Red posts... It's because the views and opinions expressed by individual Riot staff members does not necessarily reflect that of Riot as a whole. Meaning one staff member might have said something like "nerfing Lee might upset people" and now that's being interpreted as "RIOT SAYS THEY WONT EVER NERF LEE SIN BECAUSE OF BACKLASH"

iamthegoatofwar4 votes

No I mean seriously that's how it was. It wasn't misinterpreted. This Is like a TL DR version.

Ariel the Cruel7 votes

If was some low tier paper pusher that said it, nobody would really care. ... Ok, they would. but it wouldn't get much attention.

When Morello says it though... and blatantly states that, otherwise, he would have been nerfed "months ago"... That's a different story entirely.


https://twitter.com/RiotMorello/status/484042166948212736


Also, riot has implied/hinted that noticeably nerfing Lee Sin isn't really in the cards. They want to create a meaningful weakness (Where he currently has none) rather than simply nerfing him. Which, for the time being, leaves him sitting on his throne.

Ghost crawler, top of the search list: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=48498774


Normally, I'm more than willing to white-knight Riot in topics like this. Their job isn't exactly getting any easier. But sanity and common sense rebuttals only go so far when the person/company your defending shoots them self in the face.

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